Calvinism

[Hands and Feet of Jesus]

Calvinism is a wonderful doctrine!!! Anyway...I want to get a Calvinism/Arminianism debate going, because it'll be fun

Calvinism:
1. Total Depravity:
Man is totally deprave and incapable od coming to God on His own
2. Unconditional Election:
God in His Sovereign grace decided before the creation of the world who would come to HIm...not just foreknowlendge, but actual election
3. Limited Atonement:
Christ died for the sins of only the elect.
4. Irrestistable Grace:
You can't resist God's calling to you if you are elcet. Neither can you come without God's drawing
5. Preservation of the Saints:
Eternal security.

Now I will supply a passage or 2 of Biblical back-up (although there are plenty more) and sometimes (when I think it nessesary) a logical proof for each element.

1. Biblical Back up:
Romans 3:23 "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
John 14:6 "I am the way the truth and light no man comes to the Father but by me."
Logical back up: Adam and Eve sinned and were banished form Eden because of it.  When their children were born, they had no opportunity to commit a sin yet, but they were not allowed to go back in the garden.  Why is this? Because they were totally deprave....they could not return to God.  The only thing that separates us from God is sin. thus they were separted from God because of sin... even though they are only babies.

2.Biblical back up:
Ephesians 1:2-12
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.  11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory"
Logical Back-up:
alright...that passage says it all...I don't feel like I need to explain it anymore. Just let me say thatthe passage says pretty specifically Chosen...NOT FOREKNEW...
3.Biblical back-up
John15:13
"Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends"
Matthew 20:28
"just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to
serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
Logical Back-up:
Well note that the verses say MANY and for His FRIENDS first of all... Then let's dive into a logical exploration of limited atonement!
The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:
All the sins of all men.
All the sins of some men, or
Some of the sins of all men.
In which case it may be said:
That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?
You answer, "Because of unbelief."
I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"
4. Biblical back-up:
 John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me
draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."
Logical proof:
Does it really need one? If it does I'll give it later.
5.Biblical proof.
John6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Ahhh...I've got to go now...I'll finish preservation later!

[Hands and Feet of Jesus]

Alright...So you can't loose your salvation, because that would imply that CHrist's sacrifice was not enough to satisfy the penalty for all your sins past, present, and future,

Another verse..
Romans 8:38-39
"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers neither hieghth nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of GOd that isin Christ Jesus our Lord."

ps...all the verse and passages a quoted are NIV

[infotechadviser]

Whosoever will, come..

Jesus told the parable of the great feast, where the invited guests would not come, so the host sent for the lame, the troubled, the sick...

God is not willing that any should perish..

That all they should believe a lie, that received not the love of the truth...

In effect, those who say that God does the repenting for us, and those who say it's a "free choice", both equally assert the importance of witnessing to the lost. So there's not much practical difference between the two views.

I for one, however, believe that God knows how to make people with a "free will". Everyone gets a chance to recieve Him. Unbelief, forever rejecting the Son, is of course the only "unforgivable sin" Jesus could have been talking about.

Since when do I myself get credit for receiving a gift anyway? Real life example, someone I know sent back a birthday gift received in the mail because she didn't want anything from that giver. If she receives it and cashes it, then how can anyone say she earned it?! (Maybe in Ivory Tower Academics, so?)

[Hands and Feet of Jesus]

Whosoever will, come..
John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me
draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Jesus told the parable of the great feast, where the invited guests would not come, so the host sent for the lame, the troubled, the sick...

I'm glad you brought that parable up.  Matthew 22:14, the concluding verse, makes an interesting statement...it reads, "For many are invited, but few are chosen"  another translation states, "For many are invited, bur few are enabled" It's interesting to think about...many are invited, but few arechosen... I'll explain my interpretation of it in a little bit, first I want to hear yours.

God is not willing that any should perish..
Of course He isn't, but He knows that it isn't possible for everyone to accept His son...That's why He for some reason chose us to predestine as sons (and daughters)

That all they should believe a lie, that received not the love of the truth...
I am confused as to what you are trying to point out here...

I for one, however, believe that God knows how to make people with a "free will".

Course God knows how to make people with a free will....

Everyone gets a chance to recieve Him.
Ahh...but only those who are elect CAN recieve Him...

Unbelief, forever rejecting the Son, is of course the only "unforgivable sin" Jesus could have been talking about.
I am confused as to what you are getting at here...is this inresponse to Limited Atonement? If so can you clarify your position on it?

[C C]

   So, you worship Calvin do you?

Instead of zeroing in on what you're teaching, you should examine the effects of your teaching.

Essentially if all that were true, that would give you an excuse not to love your neighbor.  

Aha!  The true reason for the existence of fancy doctrines is to weasil out of doing what God really wants.  Love God, Love Your neighbor.  all the fancy doctrines in the world with men's names on them essentially weasily you out of doing what god wants.  Fine.  Worship man if you wish but when God says he never knew you later in life, you'll know why.

[His_child]

Calvin was a man of God, but his teachings have many holes in them.

Sometimes the way Protestants refer to Calvin is almost as bad as the way Catholics refer to the Pope.

[Hands and Feet of Jesus]

 So, you worship Calvin do you?
No, I don't. I worship God.
Essentially if all that were true, that would give you an excuse not to love your neighbor.  
Don't see where you get that.
Aha!  The true reason for the existence of fancy doctrines is to weasil out of doing what God really wants.  Love God, Love Your neighbor.  all the fancy doctrines in the world with men's names on them essentially weasily you out of doing what god wants.  Fine.  Worship man if you wish but when God says he never knew you later in life, you'll know why.
Wow...um...I DONT Worship man....God is my focus and main priority...this is a debate thread and I enjoy dicussing Calvinism and Amrinianism...so I started this thread...Please don't ever question my salvation, unless you actually know me
Calvin was a man of God, but his teachings have many holes in them.
They're all BIblical and that's the important thing.
Sometimes the way Protestants refer to Calvin is almost as bad as the way Catholics refer to the Pope.
Ah...but the way the refer to Arminius is even worse

[C C]

   Calvin's doctrine as the way it is interpreted these days boils down to people in two categories, Elect vs. Non-elect.  All you really have to do is find a way to classify your neighbor to be a non-elect, and Wala!  You don't have to love him or her.  Woo hoo!    Then you wont have to h elp them if they need help and you wont have to forgive them if they sin.  You wont even have to associate with them.  The supposed "elect" become an exclusive group of people that consider themselves to be superior.  Christs says, he who wants to be the greatest needs to be the least and Christ also was INCLUSIVE.  Christ didn't want to exclude any body  ooooh, not even sinners were excluded by Christ.  

Key signs of bad doctrines--Exclusivity and Superiority.  You'll note these are the key things that the Pharasees depended on to keep themselves in the top echolons of socieity.  The smart folks of the religions make up doctrines to put themselves in the same position the Pharasees were in.  Watch for them.  They give folks excuses not to do what God wants.  God wants SERVANTS and People that Love Their Neighbor.  Not folks that are "More righteous then thou" and "Superior to Thou" by their doctrines.  

Peace  

[Hands and Feet of Jesus]

All you really have to do is find a way to classify your neighbor to be a non-elect, and Wala!  You don't have to love him or her.  Woo hoo!    Then you wont have to h elp them if they need help and you wont have to forgive them if they sin.  You wont even have to associate with them.  The supposed "elect" become an exclusive group of people that consider themselves to be superior.  Christs says, he who wants to be the greatest needs to be the least and Christ also was INCLUSIVE.  Christ didn't want to exclude any body  ooooh, not even sinners were excluded by Christ.  

No...We still have to love everyone, wether they are elect or not...the idea that you don't have to love everyone isn't Calvinism...might be hyperCalvinism though..hyperClavinism= BAD....and it isn't humanly possible to know if someone is elect or not prior to their slavation anyway...and you can't know if someone will be saved in the future or not...

I'm very confused as to where you got your ideas about Calvinism...please explain...

[Hands and Feet of Jesus]

Ten Effects of Believing in the Five Points of Calvinism
April 20, 2002
These ten points are my personal testimony to the effects of believing in the five points of Calvinism. I have just completed teaching a seminar on this topic and was asked by the class members to post these reflections so they could have access to them. I am happy to do so. They, of course, assume the content of the course, which is available on tape from Desiring God Ministries, but I will put them here for wider use in the hope that they might stir others to search, Berean-like, to see if the Bible teaches what I call "Calvinism."
1. These truths make me stand in awe of God and lead me into the depth of true God-centered worship.
I recall the time I first saw, while teaching Ephesians at Bethel College in the late '70's, the threefold statement of the goal of all God's work, namely, "to the praise of the glory of his grace" (Ephesians 1:6, 12, 14).
It has led me to see that we cannot enrich God and that therefore his glory shines most brightly not when we try to meet his needs but when we are satisfied in him as the essence of our deeds. "From him and through him and to him are all things. To him the glory forever" (Romans 11:36). Worship becomes an end in itself.
It has made me feel how low and inadequate are my affections, so that the Psalms of longing come alive and make worship intense.
2. These truths help protect me from trifling with divine things.
One of the curses of our culture is banality, cuteness, cleverness. Television is the main sustainer of our addiction to superficiality and triviality.
God is swept into this. Hence the trifling with divine things.
Earnestness is not excessive in our day. It might have been once. And, yes, there are imbalances in certain people today who don't seem to be able to relax and talk about the weather.
Robertson Nicole said of Spurgeon, "Evangelism of the humorous type [we might say, church growth of the marketing type] may attract multitudes, but it lays the soul in ashes and destroys the very germs of religion. Mr. Spurgeon is often thought by those who do not know his sermons to have been a humorous preacher. As a matter of fact there was no preacher whose tone was more uniformly earnest, reverent and solemn" (Quoted in The Supremacy of God in Preaching, p. 57).
3. These truths make me marvel at my own salvation.
After laying out the great, God-wrought salvation in Ephesians 1, Paul prays, in the last part of that chapter, that the effect of that theology will be the enlightenment of our hearts so that we marvel at our hope, and at the riches of the glory of our inheritance, and at the power of God at work in us – that is, the power to raise the dead.
Every ground of boasting is removed. Brokenhearted joy and gratitude abound.
The piety of Jonathan Edwards begins to grow. When God has given us a taste of his own majesty and our own wickedness, then the Christian life becomes a thing very different than conventional piety. Edwards describes it beautifully when he says,
The desires of the saints, however earnest, are humble desires: their hope is a humble hope, and their joy, even when it is unspeakable, and full of glory, is humble, brokenhearted joy, and leaves the Christian more poor in spirit, and more like a little child, and more disposed to a universal lowliness of behavior (Religious Affections, New Haven: Yale University Press, 1959, pp. 339f).
4. These truths make me alert to man-centered substitutes that pose as good news.
In my book, The Pleasures of God (2000), pp. 144-145, I show that in the 18th century in New England the slide from the sovereignty of God led to Arminianism and thence to universalism and thence to Unitarianism. The same thing happened in England in the 19thcentury after Spurgeon.
Iain Murray's Jonathan Edwards: A New Biography (Edinburgh: Banner of Truth, 1987), p. 454, documents the same thing: "Calvinistic convictions waned in North America. In the progress of the decline which Edwards had rightly anticipated, those Congregational churches of New England which had embraced Arminianism after the Great Awakening gradually moved into Unitarianism and universalism, led by Charles Chauncy."
You can also read in J. I. Packer's Quest for Godliness (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Books, 1990), p. 160, how Richard Baxter forsook these teachings and how the following generations reaped a grim harvest in the Baxter church in Kidderminster.
These doctrines are a bulwark against man-centered teachings in many forms that gradually corrupt the church and make her weak from the inside, all the while looking strong or popular.
1 Timothy 3:15, "The church of the living God [is] the pillar and bulwark of the truth."
5. These truths make me groan over the indescribable disease of our secular, God-belittling culture.
I can hardly read the newspaper or look at a TV ad or a billboard without feeling the burden that God is missing.
When God is the main reality in the universe and is treated as a non-reality, I tremble at the wrath that is being stored up. I am able to be shocked. So many Christians are sedated with the same drug as the world. But these teachings are a great antidote.
And I pray for awakening and revival.
And I try to preach to create a people that are so God-saturated that they will show and tell God everywhere and all the time.
We exist to reassert the reality of God and the supremacy of God in all of life.
6. These truths make me confident that the work which God planned and began, he will finish – both globally and personally.
This is the point of Romans 8:28-39.
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died- more than that, who was raised- who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered." 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
7. These truths make me see everything in the light of God's sovereign purposes – that from him and through him and to him are all things, to him be glory forever and ever.
All of life relates to God. There's no compartment where he is not all-important and the one who gives meaning to everything. 1 Corinthians 10:31.
Seeing God's sovereign purpose worked out in Scripture, and hearing Paul say that "he accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11) makes me see the world this way.
8. These truths make me hopeful that God has the will, the right, and the power to answer prayer that people be changed.
The warrant for prayer is that God may break in and change things – including the human heart. He can turn the will around. "Hallowed be thy name" means: cause people to hallow your name. "May your word run and be glorified" means: cause hearts to be opened to the gospel.
We should take the New Covenant promises and plead with God to bring them to pass in our children and in our neighbors and among all the mission fields of the world.
"God, take out of their flesh the heart of stone and give him a new heart of flesh" (Ezekiel 11:19).
"Lord, circumcise their hearts so that they love you" (Deuteronomy 30:6).
"Father, put your spirit within them and cause them to walk in Your statutes" (Ezekiel 36:27).
"Lord, grant them repentance and the knowledge of the truth that they may escape from the snare of the devil" (2 Timothy 2:25-26).
"Father, open their hearts so that they believe the gospel" (Acts 16:14).
9. These truths reminds me that evangelism is absolutely essential for people to come to Christ and be saved, and that there is great hope for success in leading people to faith, but that conversion is not finally dependent on me or limited by the hardness of the unbeliever.
So it gives hope to evangelism, especially in the hard places and among the hard peoples.
John 10:16, "I have other sheep that are not of this fold, I must bring them also. They will heed my voice."
It is God's work. Throw yourself into it with abandon.
10. These truths make me sure that God will triumph in the end.
Isaiah 46:9-10, "I am God and there is no other. I am God and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, "My counsel shall stand that I will accomplish all my purpose'"
Putting them altogether: God gets the glory and we get the joy.


From:
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/ten_effects.html

[Chuck]

Amen, "Hands and Feet of Jesus"!  I found some very inspiring testimonies here and here of those who've come to believe in God's sovereign grace.  It's so comforting knowing that my salvation rests completely with God.  If it depended on me at all, I'd be going to Hell.

Romans 9:15-16 (NIV)

For he says to Moses,
   "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
       and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

May God richly bless you,

Chuck

[His_child]

TULIP is a pretty flower but a bad doctrine.

It looks like Candace and I are in 100% agreement on this one.

[daniel1212av]

I wonder if anyone versed in Calvinism would see this and respond, or if i should open a new thread. Studying Dt. 24:16, (see also 2Ki_14:5, 6; 2Ch_25:4; Jer_31:29, Jer_31:30; Eze_18:20), it seems to militate against one of the implicit conclusions of Calvinism, in which non-elect souls effectively are eternally damned due to Adam's transgression (seeing they are born into bondage to sin, and are never granted repentance and faith).  This does not means Calvinism is wrong, but it seems that to be consistent with the limits of  justice which the LORD had laid down, then the non-elect, absent of the ability or opportunity to be saved, would need to be personally culpable of Adam's transgression, but that seems to me to be contrary that the principal of Rm. 4:15; 5:13.  Yet i believe that  God is perfectly just, and that “we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth” (Rm. 2:2).

[Reba]

A topic i love to talk about... The Word of God.   Many have labled me a Calvinist i have not studied his writings. 

 I haven't been posting for a while i will try and make sense of the use of the  quotes to answer you...

wonder if anyone versed in Calvinism would see this and respond, or if i should open a new thread. Studying Dt. 24:16, (see also 2Ki_14:5, 6; 2Ch_25:4; Jer_31:29, Jer_31:30; Eze_18:20), it seems to militate against one of the implicit conclusions of Calvinism, in which non-elect souls effectively are eternally damned due to Adam's transgression (seeing they are born into bondage to sin, and are never granted repentance and faith). 

I am not versed in Calvinism   

Deu 24:16  The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

2Ki 14:5  And it came to pass, as soon as the kingdom was confirmed in his hand, that he slew his servants which had slain the king his father.
2Ki 14:6  But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

In light of t he scriptures above which state  'Death for our own sin"  Calvinism/Arminianism both teach sin was brought in via Adam

Rom 5:12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Yet i believe that  God is perfectly just, and that “we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth” (Rm. 2:2).

Amen and amen He is just ....

Rom 9:12  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Rom 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Rom 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Rom 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?


Man seems to have a hard time accepting Gods sovereignty. He is Just .What ever God does is Godly . We try to keep  Him in our views of Godliness and our views of justice.

Most often a thread on this subject is pelted with verbal stones .  A good discussion of scripture with Christian views that may be a bit different is a really good thing...

No man is worthy of salvation. We all deserve damnation. Who among us is with out sin?

I use the  alternating colors only because it is easier on my eyes...

[David_james]

 >:(God wants everyone to come to him! He doesn't elect people to be saved. Hands, your logic is flawed!
Read John 3:16, God loves everyone.