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Our Lord Jesus Christ loves you.
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Author Topic: Is salvation for all mankind?  (Read 8092 times)
Left Coast
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It's all His work


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« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2004, 11:07:41 PM »

Hi, BEP
I'll try not to debate, I will try to explain. By what you said you are confused as to my point. May God give me a clear and wise voice and may God give you understanding.

Proverbs 2:6  For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.

It is not exactly forcing, believing is a result of a change in us. It is a rescue.
Consider someone frozen outside, paramedics arrive, thaw him out and revive him. Was he forced to live, perhaps. It was necessary for the paramedics to do it all because he was incapable of doing anything on his own. That is how capable we are of having saving faith.
God must change our heart, so that we can believe in truth.
We can have an intellectual understanding who Jesus is, and many want to join up.
True belief, where we hang every bit of our salvation and life on God, comes because God has given us a heart that can believe in truth.
Once God changes our heart we have no choice. It is our deepest desire to be with Him.
If He does not change our heart our faith is not a saving faith.
The bible mentions many that believe, but are not saved. Even the devils believe. So believing cannot be the mechanism that saves.
We’re control freaks, we want to be in charge of our lives. For some reason we don’t want to trust God 100% with our lives.
If you really want faith try to trust every bit of your salvation on Him.
If the claim is made, “all you have to do is …”, then you are not trusting 100% on God.
The bible warns that when Jesus returns many that considered Him Lord, many that felt they were working for Jesus, were never saved. He never knew them.

Matthew 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These are self made believers. To cast out devils means they witnessed to others, brought others to the church, evangelized, etc.
I used to believe I was saved because I made a freewill decision, I was wrong.
I am saved because God had mercy on me. He chose to save me. He drew me to Him. He changed my heart.
I wasted many years trusting in my works.
I don’t know when I was saved, and it doesn’t matter. All that matters is that I was.
Having some intellectual belief can put us on our knees, we can cry out for mercy, but if we claim God MUST save us then we are ruling over God. God has no obligation to man.
Why reject so many verses that says God chooses to save whom He wishes?
Why reject so many verses that says God gives understanding to those He chooses?
Why reject those verses that gives the credit to God that we believe, such as in my signature.
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I heard the Gospel of the Grace of God, believed it, accepted the GIFT of God, and have happily put my faith and trust in Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Saviour.
I heard the Gospel, and through the Grace of God believed it. He bestowed on me the GIFT of life, by no merit of my own, trusting ALL in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.

Acts 15:11  But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Would God save everyone?
He is capable but He doesn’t. There is a purpose to His plan. Don’t ask me what it is I don’t know.
I don’t even know why He would have mercy on a wretch like me. So many more people are kinder, less selfish, and less sinful. I enjoyed my sins.
I don’t see how I could possibly know His entire plan. He is molding us, creating something special. We are just clay, He is the potter.

Romans 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Romans 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Romans 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Romans 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

I hope I might have cleared up at least a little confusion,
John

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Luke 24:45  Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Reba
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« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2004, 11:21:58 PM »

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Perhaps this puts things in perspective. Without sinners there is no need of a Saviour. Without a Saviour no sinner can be saved, no matter how hard he tries.

Amen Sower  Smiley

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Sower
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« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2004, 11:31:02 PM »

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Rom 9:15-22

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

AND WILL HE HAVE COMPASSION ON ALL?
"Ho, EVERY ONE THAT THIRSTETH, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money: come ye, buy, and eat: yea, come buy wine and milk WITHOUT MONEY AND WITHOUT PRICE... Seek ye the LORD, while He may be found, call ye upon Him while He is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thouoghts: and let him return unto the LORD: AND HE WILL HAVE MERCY UPON HIM; AND TO OUR GOD, FOR HE WILL ABUNDANTLY PARDON" (Isa. 55:1,6,7).

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16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

FOR BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, BUT ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED US..." (Tit. 3:5)

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17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

THE WRATH OF GOD IS REVEALED AGAINST SINNERS

"For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness... Because when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened" (Rom. 1:18,21)

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18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

MEN LOVE DARKNESS RATHER THAN LIGHT, BECAUSE THEIR DEEDS ARE EVIL
"And this is the condemnation, that Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds be reproved." (Jn. 3:19,20)

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19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

IT IS A RIGHTEOUS THING WITH GOD TO RECOMPENSE TRIBULATION TO THOSE THAT TROUBLE YOU
"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus Christ shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire TAKING VENGEANCE ON THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, AND THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUOR LORD JESUS CHRIST: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power" (2 Thess. 1:6-9).
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Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father, and Jesus Christ our Lord. 1 Timothy 1:2
Reba
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« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2004, 11:34:23 PM »

 Nicely said lefty  Smiley


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Reba
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« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2004, 11:50:53 PM »

Sower,

 I spent a life time in free will (Dad was a AofG pastor, i was blessed to literaly grow up in church Smiley  ) and was thankful to the Lord for that life. Although  I will not ever again believe that my sinner self chose GOD. I was dead in sin He found me and He pulled me from the clay as you so rightly posted ...

"FOR BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, BUT ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED US..." (Tit. 3:5)"


« Last Edit: May 19, 2004, 11:51:27 PM by Reba » Logged
Left Coast
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« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2004, 02:47:28 AM »

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Christ died for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD, God now commandeth ALL MEN everywhere to repent, since God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance, because in His infinite grace GOD WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, AND TO COME UNTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.
The word ‘world’ like the word ‘all’ doesn’t always mean what you want it to mean.

John 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

If He was the savior of the whole world you’d think He would pray for the world. He prays for those God has given him.

John 12:19  The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

Did the entire planet go after him?
The verses that you depend on for your understanding are simply not as clear as you would like them to be.
The words ‘all’ and ‘world’ rarely, if ever, mean what you have construed them to mean.
The world is not a reference to the number of people on the planet.
The word ‘world’ might be better understood to refer to the sin nature of man. The people of the planet in their wickedness.

James 4:4  Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

1 John 2:15  Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1 John 2:16  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

The Love of the Father is language pointing to salvation.
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The price paid by the Lamb of God was too costly to exclude anyone. Those who exclude themselves, choose to do so. God excludes no one, not even a persecutor of the Church like the Pharisee Saul.
Saul is a good example of someone being saved by Gods action. He didn’t have a whole lot of choice in the matter.
How many times do your sins need to be paid for?
If Jesus has paid for your sins then they never need to be paid for again.
If Jesus has paid for the sins of every person on the planet then the payment is in full. Nothing more needs to be paid. Even if they reject the Lord by your definition the payment has been made. So now one of two things must happen.
1. Jesus would need to go get a refund. Somehow give the suffering back.
2. No one goes to Hell to pay for their sins. The payment would have already been made.
That is just not possible.
Whether you believe in election or freewill, Jesus knew every single person that was to be saved (whether it was by Gods choice or mans choice it doesn’t matter) and He paid for their sins ONLY.
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Salvation is indeed a decision -- a decision for Christ: "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve..." (Josh. 24:15)

Joshua 24:15  And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

There is nothing here about being saved because they have chosen God --- Read a little further.
They want to serve God because God chose them and saved them.

Joshua 24:16  And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;
Joshua 24:17  For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:

Egypt is a picture of the dominion Satan. We are under bondage to sin. This part of the bible is a wonderful picture of salvation. They didn’t choose to leave Egypt, they didn’t want to leave Egypt, but they did. It was all Gods work.

Exodus 14:12  Is not this the word that we did tell thee in Egypt, saying, Let us alone, that we may serve the Egyptians? For it had been better for us to serve the Egyptians, than that we should die in the wilderness.

There was no freewill choice.

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Read what Paul says to the Thessalonians: "For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God" (1 Thess. 1:9). Was that not a deliberate decision, or was it happenstance?
It is neither. It is a result of salvation. Go back to verses 4 and 5.

1 Thessalonians 1:4  Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
 
They were elected by God ---CHOSEN by God. Not choosing God.

1 Thessalonians 1:5  For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

They didn’t just hear the word and make a decision. The gospel came with power and the Holy Ghost, God worked in them. That is why they turned from idols.
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What about those converted on the day of Pentecost?
What about the day of Pentecost?

Acts 2:41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

So 3,000 people made a freewill decision, not likely. God saved those 3,000. Read a little further.

Acts 2:47  Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

His work.
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The moment a sinner turns to Christ, he or she is saved, born again…
How can anyone contribute anything to their birth?
The baby has no input as to their birth. That is why the Lord used such an example. Nicodemus understood it was impossible for man to get himself born again.

John 3:4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

Jesus told him you have to be born of the spirit, God must resurrect your spirit. When you are born again your spiritually dead self must be made alive.
Yes Lazarus was already saved, the Lord presented him as a picture, of salvation. The dead can do nothing on their own. By using Lazarus Jesus was showing salvation is all his Work.

John 11:25  Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

How can the dead believe? Do the dead have freewill?
The bible is teaching that it is God that gives the spiritually dead the ability to believe.
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Since the offer of salvation is TO ALL MANKIND, nothing could be fairer. We are all dealt "the same cards".
The offer is not made to those that have never heard gospel.

Romans 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

If all were given the same cards then there would be the same percentage of Christians in Iran, India, China, or the U.S.A.
There would be no need to evangelize, no need for missionaries.
All would have an equal chance whether they had heard the word or not.
The fact is God gets the word to those He intends to save.
He got the word to Ruth, and Rehab, and the Samaritan woman at the well. That is why it is so important to get the word out.
The point of the paralytic man is he did not believe Jesus was the saviour, he did not even consider Jesus could forgive his sins. He made absolutely no freewill decision to make Jesus his Lord. Jesus just saved him, Jesus gave him the gift of eternal life. The man had no choice in the matter.
Jesus could just as easily said to everyone that was gathered, your sins are forgiven. He didn’t, He chose this man. The man did not choose Jesus.
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Luke 24:45  Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
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