Pre-wrath investigation

[Bronzesnake]

 Petro.

It's obvious that you love the Lord, and study scriptures thoroughly. In this instance I guess we'll simply have to agree to disagree my brother.

 Take care.

Bronzesnake

[Petro]

Petro.

It's obvious that you love the Lord, and study scriptures thoroughly. In this instance I guess we'll simply have to agree to disagree my brother.

 Take care.

Bronzesnake

bz,

Well I have no idea who coined this term (we'll simply have to agree to disagree), Christians who are taught of God, and claim to possess His Spirit, should not disagree, at all.

But unfortunately some do, bvecause of thier willingness to do as you have stated.

I hate to see, you an the others walk away with this being your final statement, rather than facing the error you embrace, while claiming to know and love His word.

But since that is what you desire, why should I keep you...

As I had stated earlier, I reject the "pseudo ephrean" letter as a false document, and this is the reason why, I found no reason to make further comment about it, you apparently place great wait on it, to support your theory, so as you continue to contemplate the coming times and the rapture, I would ask that you consider and ask yourself, the following;

Why was the pre-trib rapture view only discovered, and documented in the history of the church, centuries after its founding by Jesus (include the pseudo ephrean, since not one church father even ever, mentions a pre trib rapture)?

If it is truly part of the "Faith once delivered to the saints, why did the early Church know nothing of it, until it began being taught in the 17th century?

Since noone has answered, my question concerning the difference of the Called, Chosen, Elect Saints of God, consider,the implications of the pre trib theory, where it separates OT Called, Chosen, Elect Saints from, NT Called Chosen, Elect Saints, while the scriptures clearly show them being redeemed from ALL of their trasngressions by the same blood of the $Eternal Gospel, this makes them members of the same body, note;

Heb 9
15  And for this cause He is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Eph 1
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:


Heb 11
40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Eph 3
14  For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Pre Tribbers, forget that the church is made up of ALL the believers from all dispensations, begining with Adam, who believed God and  the apostle says concerning those who obey;

Acts 5
32  And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

If you could separate OT believers from the NT believers, then very possibly you might make the case for being able to separate, NT post resurrection believers from the tribulation believers, unfortunately this is an impossibility, since ALL who are declared righteous by God, are sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise.

Because (as IO stated earlier) the Gospel of the Kingdom is an Eternal and an Everlasting Gospel of eternal redemption and the promise of eternal inheritance comes only through the blood of Christ via. the New Covenant.

Old Testament saints are brought into the New Covenant, and made complete along with us.  

bronzesnake,  it is in the way one studies the scriptures which determines what one will believe, reading about theories, then looking up select scriptures in an effort to support the theory, is no way to go about it.

Traditional dispensationalists separate Gods people, because they willingly believe what others teach them (they would rather be taught by others, rather than the Comforter), they know not what the word of God teaches plainly.

This is the deception.................in the midst of the church.

I simply do not care to disagree for the sake of disagreeing with others, I desire to know the truth about what the Spirit teaches, so that I will not disagree with HIM.

As I see it, you guys are stuck, unable to answer questions, because you won't face  up to the truth, you even are willing to, disagree for the sake of disagreeing instead of backing up and re examiniing your theories.

Throwing in the towel, is no way to excersice the senses to discern what is true, from what is not, while claiming to only believe what Gods Word teaches.



Blessings anyhow,

Petro

[Petro]

One last thing,  it is amazing to me, how the church today, especially those who hold to a pre trib view, see themselves as blessed moreso, than the natural sons of God, the scriptures are clear we are adopted by God, made possible by the promise, made to Abraham, concerning Jesus. (Gal 3:6-29) Really,  only because we are in Christ Jesus.

And these, in the church who hold to this theory, of the pre tribe,  forget God established His New Covenant with THOSE WHO WERE UNDER THE LAW (Jews), then believing Israel (the remnant- His disciples) received ADOPTED SONS (Gentiles).

We now have the same blessings and promises as natural sons of Abraham.

The scriptures even refer to gentiles as; real Jews, in this dispensation even those with a circumcised heart as  the adopted sons of Abraham, we also even receive the OT promises. (Rom 2:28-29, 4:13-16, 9:6-8, Heb 6:12-20), Gentiles are grafted in see ( Rom 11:1-7, 11:16-27)

What's more, in revealing the mystery which had been given him at Eph 2-3,  Paul even said the Old Testament and New Testament saints are in Christ. This union had already taken place prior to Paul's writing to the Ephesian church, notice;


Eph 1
1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2  Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6  To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7  In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8  Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9  Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10  That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Eph 4
4  There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7  But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8  Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9  (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10  He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

I tell you.............

The more I look at pre tribe rapture theory, the more problems I see with it, which are irreconcilable to the scriptural teachings of these things.

Petro

[Bronzesnake]

I simply do not care to disagree for the sake of disagreeing with others, I desire to know the truth about what the Spirit teaches, so that I will not disagree with HIM.

As I see it, you guys are stuck, unable to answer questions, because you won't face  up to the truth, you even are willing to, disagree for the sake of disagreeing instead of backing up and re examiniing your theories.

Throwing in the towel, is no way to excersice the senses to discern what is true, from what is not, while claiming to only believe what Gods Word teaches.

Petro. There comes a time when, sane, logical people come to realize they are flogging a dead horse. You have your beliefs, I have mine. This debate has been going on endlessly with neither side willing to concede. You  keep saying things such as "you guys are stuck, unable to answer questions" however, the truth is here for all to see...your questions have been answered, and in great detail with scripture backing. You simply refuse to acknowledge it, for whatever reason. I suspect you just can't admit you are wrong, so you pretend, or believe that you posess some devastating, contrary biblical evidence which can not be countered.

 As for your comments about the late date for the teaching of pre-trib...when exactly did your "pre-wrath" teaching appear Petro? ...pre-trib made it's appearance in the gospels some two thousand years ago.

That's it for me my friend, go ahead and debate it with yourself. I'll see you in the clouds...pre-trib!

Bronzesnake

[Petro]

posted by bronzesanke
...pre-trib made it's appearance in the gospels some two thousand years ago.

That's it for me my friend, go ahead and debate it with yourself. I'll see you in the clouds...pre-trib!

Bronzesnake

bz

See what I mean, history does not support your claim..

You are confused my friend..............................you confuse pre trib with pre mill.

The first century church believed in a pre mill rapture (not to be confused with pre trib) Peter and  Paul taught it, using OT prophecies, of which the Lord Himself refered to Himself.

The church's position was always a post trib rapture, and always taught in the context of the Lord Second Coming, Peter at Acts 2:16-21, refers to Joel 2, and clearly is refering to the last days and the signs which will accompany His return, in that day.

Another Major Problem which acompanies the traditional dispensationlists pre trib view is that of multiple salvation plans, in order to accomodate their theory, they have devised different plans of salvation for Israel and he Church.

Pre Tribbers claim that during the great trib the plan of salvation will incorporate the OT Mosaic Covenant in some way, and is seen as having to do with works along with faith.

In spite of the Bibles teaching that Salvation was, is and will be, by the blood of Christ, regardless of whether they lived before or after the cross.

If the animal sacrifices "could never take away sin", ALL OT Saints who died in FAITH of Gods promises, were covered by Jesus Blood which is retroactive for them, ( I have given you the verses, Heb 9:15, Eph1:10, Heb 11:40, Eph 3:14-15) there are natural sons (natural branches which will be grafter in) yet to be saved, which are partakers of the original promises confirmed in to Jacob and ther nation.

Jesus, confirms his coming is after the great tribulaiton (Mat 24:29-30, It cannot be made any clearer than this.

Paul even banked his life on these sayings when he stood before Agrippa;

He saw his mission to the gentiles as the fulfillment of Israel's hope,when he said;

I think myself happy, king Agrippa, because I shall answer for myself this day before thee touching all the things whereof I am accused of the Jews:
Especially because I know thee to be expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews: wherefore I beseech thee to hear me patiently.
My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers:
Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, ...........Acts 26:6-7

In recountiung his conversion on the road to Damascus, Jesus commissions him to preach the Gospel to the gentiles, he continues;

Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:...............
Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:............
That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should show light unto the people, and to the Gentiles. Acts 26:19,22-23

When Jesus spoke to His disciples He spoke to them in language they understood, though they could not know of John's visions of Jesus at Revelation (which was written 60 approx. years later) which God gave unto Him (Rev 1:1), they inderstood that His Second Coming would be in the future, at the sounding of the trumpet, at His Second Coming The Day of the Lord, a physical and visible retutnr, and they understood it to be after the Great Tribulation because He said to them:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.  Mat 24:29-31

His gathering of His Elect, will be

from one end of heaven to the other.

Problem with the pre trib view is the ones in heaven have already been gathered once, yet this is the only gathering spoken of in the scriptures, and it is pre wrath, post trib, pre mill.

No pre tribber can square this up to their theory.

The prophet Isaiah at chapter 2, speasks clearly of that time.

Only by ignoring and discounting JESUS OWN WORDS and believing this obscure teaching can one conclude there will be a secret rapture of believers.

I think this might very well be the strong delusion visited by God, upon those who do not believe Jesus own Words.

This great deception when exposed, will probably be followed by the great Apostasy because of great offense people will take at not being taken out at the pre trib, since it is clear the deception has taken root, and is now being believed by those who call themselves christians, after this great falling away, the revelation of the man of sin is fulfilled followed by the Lords physical and visible return..

There is hope in Gods Words and that is the the Ellect will not be deceived.

Examine yourselves...whether you be in the faith; prove your own selves. 2 Cor 13:5


Hey what else can I say, except confirm what is written for your edification..........


Petro