THE ONE TRUE CHURCH

[AJ]

There is not a church of the men of Israel and a church of the gentiles. There is one church, believers in Christ. It did not start with Paul, but with Peter, the other apostles and those that believed Peter's preaching about Jesus Christ as revealed in Acts :2.

You have not answered my questions from a previoues post.
If the church had its beginning with the salvation of Paul then what church was in existence for such as should be saved in Acts 2:47?
What church is refered to in Acts 2? Was it before Pauls conversion? What church did Saul persecute if it began with Paul?

Ollie

Amen brother Ollie...there is only one Gospel

As far as water baptizm- i cant find one apostle who said it was not necessary...on the contrary they say we are baptized into his death...the holy spirit does not baptise into death, it baptises us to walk in newness of life... not death.

Just the other day i was at a website where a guy was saying water baptizm was not necessary...and in the same sentence he said him and his wife got water baptized just in case...so we see they were not sure, just like every one else. Even Jesus was water baptized...John said i have need to be baptized by you...Jesus then said let us fulfill all righteousness.

Paul baptized-Peter baptized-Phillip baptized a Gentile...Paul even rebaptized some of Johns followers in the name of Jesus. Paul got a little angry with some of the church because they where saying they where followers of him and so on...so he said im glad i didnt baptise any of you( Meaning they where baptized) if your gonna act like this. Then he said the lord didnt call me to baptise...but that doent mean his followers where not. As we see Jesus also had his followers baptized...but it wasnt him who did it, it was his followers that baptized one another. Jesus even had more people water baptized than John...he was burrying them into his death.

Romans...Gentile Church

Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptizm into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.  

He didnt say buried by the spirit.

Col 2:11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12  Buried with him in baptizm, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God...Holy spirit

1Co 15:29  Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

The holy spirit does not baptise into death. It baptizes us to walk in newness of life...for it is life

Rom 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

In the likeness of his death,=Water baptizm

In the likeness of his resurrection:=Holy Spirit

Rom 6:11  Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Brother Love]

Did The Body Of Christ Begin At Pentecost?

NO WAY!!

It started with Paul, chapter 9 of Acts.

Good Post WFC, AMEN!!!!!

Your Friend and Brother

Brother Love

<))><

[Evangelist]

Did The Body Of Christ Begin At Pentecost?
NO WAY!!
It started with Paul, chapter 9 of Acts.

Rofl!!

Act 2:38   Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39   For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40   And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41   Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.

Question...to what ekklesia (church) were these three thousand added?

Act 2:47   Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

What church?

Act 4:4   Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

And another group...

Act 5:11   And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

What church?

Act 5:14   And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)

Added to whom?

Act 6:1   And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.

Seems this ekklesia had Greeks and Hebrews....were they Jewish? or was this the Church?

Act 8:1   And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

What church was being persecuted by the Jews?

Act 8:3   As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed [them] to prison.

What church was being made havoc(k) of? Surely a Jew (Saul, aka Paul) wasn't persecuting the Jewish church, now was he?


Get real folks.....the Church of Jesus Christ, His Body, the one true church, began when He sent His Holy Spirit back to this earth to indwell and empower those who would believe on Him for salvation.

Unless, of course, you want to consider those untold thousands of people who believed, and were baptized as not really part of the body...unsaved, cast off, forgotten, etc.  Or did they walk the sawdust trail and change their memberships after Paul got converted?

Which brings up another question. What church did Ananias belong to?

[Sower]

Which brings up another question. What church did Ananias belong to?

Which brings up a second question: To what "church" do ultra-dispensationalists belong?

LOCAL CHURCHES EXISTED SINCE PENTECOST
At the time that Paul returned to Tarsus following his conversion and visit to Jerusalem (Acts 9:17-30) we read of a plurality of existing local churches throughout Palestine which had come into being since Pentecost: "Then had the churches [assemblies] rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied." (Acts 9:31)

THE CHURCH, THE BODY OF CHRIST, EXISTED SINCE PENTECOST
Then in the next verse we read about "the saints which dwelt at Lydda": "And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to THE SAINTS which dwelt at Lydda" (Acts 9:32).

When we read of "saints" in the NT, we are reading about those who have been (1) sanctified by the Holy Spirit (1 Pet. 1:2) and baptized into the Body of Christ (the Church) by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13) -- born-again believers (Tit. 3:3-7).  

So here we have, at the time Paul barely begins his ministry, (1) local churches or assemblies of believers and (2) saints who are already in the Body of Christ.

The teaching that the Church began with Paul is utterly without Scriptural foundation, and is another "doctrine of men" such as Bullinger, C.R. Stam, Clyde Pilkington, etc.  It is a shame that this teaching has surface among those who are genuinely born-again and should be of one mind and one spirit regarding such fundamental truths. Ultradispensationalism is a dangerous doctrine, since even the ordinances of water baptism and the Lord's Supper are called into question.

[nChrist]

Sower said:

The teaching that the Church began with Paul is utterly without Scriptural foundation, and is another "doctrine of men" such as Bullinger, C.R. Stam, Clyde Pilkington, etc.  It is a shame that this teaching has surface among those who are genuinely born-again and should be of one mind and one spirit regarding such fundamental truths. Ultradispensationalism is a dangerous doctrine, since even the ordinances of water baptism and the Lord's Supper are called into question.

Brother Sower,

I have a lot of respect for you, your errors and all. I don't know much about the men you listed above except for Pastor Stam. I'm sure that he has errors also, but God used him to point a host of people to Christ. If one doesn't read what you said very carefully, one would think that Brother Stam was lost or doing something evil, and the opposite would be true.

I don't agree with everything you say or believe, and I don't agree with everything Brother Stam says and believes, but I have a great deal more respect for him than I do you.

You know, God uses imperfect people with errors every day, mainly because there are no perfect people without errors. I read something from Pastor Stam at least once per day and feel like God used him as a mighty servant. I'm sure that Pastor Stam had some "warts", but God used him in a mighty way regardless. You and I have "warts" also, but I'm positive that our "warts" are much larger and uglier than Pastor Stam's.

Sower, I love you anyway, huge warts and all.

There is love in Jesus,
Tom

[Evangelist]

KILLER QUESTION

What difference does it make - in the eternal perspective - as to exactly when the Church started? Considering the Great Commission, and salvation by grace through faith, does Paul starting the Church, or the day of Pentecost starting the Church, or the baptism of the eunuch, or the saving of Cornelius and his household, or anything else make any difference whatsoever in the Gospel?

I don't think so.

As far as God is concerned, souls were saved according to His plan of grace....and that is the ONLY thing that matters.

 Scripturally, it could be argued that the age of grace (unmerited salvation) began when Jesus first uttered the words "your sins are forgiven".

We should all try to keep in mind one thing......eternity......and when the church started isn't going to bring one more soul into the Kingdom....but our arguments over it might keep someone out.

And that is NOT good.

[Shylynne]

We should all try to keep in mind one thing......eternity......and when the church started isn't going to bring one more soul into the Kingdom....but our arguments over it might keep someone out.


Well said Evangelist



In the likeness of his death = Water baptizm

In the likeness of his resurrection = Holy Spirit

Amen AJ

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

[nChrist]

AMEN Evangelist!

If God took back his GIFT from men with errors or sin, no man would be saved.

There is Love in Jesus,
Tom

[ollie]

Did The Body Of Christ Begin At Pentecost?

NO WAY!!

It started with Paul, chapter 9 of Acts.

Good Post WFC, AMEN!!!!!

Your Friend and Brother

Brother Love

<))><The body of Christ is the church. The church is the body of Christ.

Colossians 1:18.  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Therefore:

If the church, (body of Christ), had its beginning with  Paul then what church, (body), was in existence for such as should be saved in Acts 2:47?
What church is refered to in Acts 2? Was it before Paul in Acts 9? What church, (body of Christ), did Saul persecute if it began with Paul?

One body, (church), one faith, one baptism, one God.

 Ephesians 4:4.  There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
 5.  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
 6.  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

[ollie]

KILLER QUESTION

What difference does it make - in the eternal perspective - as to exactly when the Church started? Considering the Great Commission, and salvation by grace through faith, does Paul starting the Church, or the day of Pentecost starting the Church, or the baptism of the eunuch, or the saving of Cornelius and his household, or anything else make any difference whatsoever in the Gospel?

I don't think so.

As far as God is concerned, souls were saved according to His plan of grace....and that is the ONLY thing that matters.

 Scripturally, it could be argued that the age of grace (unmerited salvation) began when Jesus first uttered the words "your sins are forgiven".

We should all try to keep in mind one thing......eternity......and when the church started isn't going to bring one more soul into the Kingdom....but our arguments over it might keep someone out.

And that is NOT good.

Never the less when someone says the church started with Paul and God's word says otherwise are Christians not obligated to show the error.

Too much emphasis is placed on Church other than it being simply the faithful in Christ. Godly people that have the Holy Spirit through obedience to Him.

[C C]

   When it says we should submit to the "Leadership" of the church, the only sensible thing to do is check who eexxaaccttllyy is the leader of the church.  Christ says He is the leader of the church and God says, Him alone shalt thou serve.  Anyone who takes it upon themselves to say that someone else is the leader of the church is serving man.  Ooops.  God alone shalt thou serve.  

[Sower]

Brother Sower,

I have a lot of respect for you, your errors and all. I don't know much about the men you listed above except for Pastor Stam. I'm sure that he has errors also, but God used him to point a host of people to Christ. If one doesn't read what you said very carefully, one would think that Brother Stam was lost or doing something evil, and the opposite would be true.

I don't agree with everything you say or believe, and I don't agree with everything Brother Stam says and believes, but I have a great deal more respect for him than I do you.

You know, God uses imperfect people with errors every day, mainly because there are no perfect people without errors. I read something from Pastor Stam at least once per day and feel like God used him as a mighty servant. I'm sure that Pastor Stam had some "warts", but God used him in a mighty way regardless. You and I have "warts" also, but I'm positive that our "warts" are much larger and uglier than Pastor Stam's.

Sower, I love you anyway, huge warts and all.

There is love in Jesus,
Tom

Brother Tom:

You say "your errrors and all".  That is a serious charge, and unless you can support it with documented evidence, it is also a "false accusation". That is not Christian love. So if you are going to accuse me of "error" you must prove it, or retract that statement. I believe I have consistently supported all my posts with the relevant Scriptures, and simply because I do not support the doctrines of men does not mean that I teach "error".

Note carefully what I said about the Ultradispensationalists:
"It is a shame that this teaching has surfaced among those who are genuinely born-again and should be of one mind and one spirit regarding such fundamental truths".  I am not questioning the salvation of these men.

I have read some of the writings of C.R. Stam. He rejects the Great Commission, water baptism for believers, and the truth that the Church began on the Day of Pentecost. He lists three "Great Commissions" and tries to put a division between the Gospel of Paul and that of the apostles. If he desires to twist the Scriptures to suit his ultradispensational theories, that's fine. However, it is the right and moral obligation of those who differ to point out what Scripture really teaches.

I will say it again.  Ultradispensartionalists are bringing unnecessary division into the Body of Christ by "wrongly dividing the Word of Truth".  That is not just my opinion, that most fundamentalist Christians would agree.

[Warrior For Christ]

Brother Sower,

I have a lot of respect for you, your errors and all. I don't know much about the men you listed above except for Pastor Stam. I'm sure that he has errors also, but God used him to point a host of people to Christ. If one doesn't read what you said very carefully, one would think that Brother Stam was lost or doing something evil, and the opposite would be true.

I don't agree with everything you say or believe, and I don't agree with everything Brother Stam says and believes, but I have a great deal more respect for him than I do you.

You know, God uses imperfect people with errors every day, mainly because there are no perfect people without errors. I read something from Pastor Stam at least once per day and feel like God used him as a mighty servant. I'm sure that Pastor Stam had some "warts", but God used him in a mighty way regardless. You and I have "warts" also, but I'm positive that our "warts" are much larger and uglier than Pastor Stam's.

Sower, I love you anyway, huge warts and all.

There is love in Jesus,
Tom

Brother Tom:

You say "your errrors and all".  That is a serious charge, and unless you can support it with documented evidence, it is also a "false accusation". That is not Christian love. So if you are going to accuse me of "error" you must prove it, or retract that statement. I believe I have consistently supported all my posts with the relevant Scriptures, and simply because I do not support the doctrines of men does not mean that I teach "error".

Note carefully what I said about the Ultradispensationalists:
"It is a shame that this teaching has surfaced among those who are genuinely born-again and should be of one mind and one spirit regarding such fundamental truths".  I am not questioning the salvation of these men.

I have read some of the writings of C.R. Stam. He rejects the Great Commission, water baptism for believers, and the truth that the Church began on the Day of Pentecost. He lists three "Great Commissions" and tries to put a division between the Gospel of Paul and that of the apostles. If he desires to twist the Scriptures to suit his ultradispensational theories, that's fine. However, it is the right and moral obligation of those who differ to point out what Scripture really teaches.

I will say it again.  Ultradispensartionalists are bringing unnecessary division into the Body of Christ by "wrongly dividing the Word of Truth".  That is not just my opinion, that most fundamentalist Christians would agree.

I have read some of the writings of C.R. Stam. He rejects the Great Commission, water baptism for believers, and the truth that the Church began on the Day of Pentecost. He lists three "Great Commissions" and tries to put a division between the Gospel of Paul and that of the apostles. If he desires to twist the Scriptures to suit his ultradispensational theories, that's fine. However, it is the right and moral obligation of those who differ to point out what Scripture really teaches.

WOW!!! I agree with everything C.R. Stam teaches. How about giving some names of teachers you like Sower.

[Warrior For Christ]

The English word "church",is an unfortunate "coined word". Much doctrinal confusion has resulted from it's scriptural mis-interpretation. The original Greek word for "church", is Ecclesia, i.e. the combining of the two Greek words Kaleo--meaning "to call", and Ek--meaning "out from". Simply stated; the word Ecclesia,refers to "ANY ASSEMBLY OF CALLED OUT ONES", be they "religious",or otherwise. It's meaning,can only be determined by it"s in-context usage. For example; in Acts 19:32,39,41, we find that "an assembly of unsaved Ephesian towns-people" are called "an ecclesia"--i.e. "a church",so to speak.

What is The One True Church?

Eph 1:22,23 "AND HATH PUT ALL THINGS UNDER HIS (Christ's) FEET; AND GAVE HIM TO BE THE HEAD OVER ALL THINGS; TO THE CHURCH,WHICH IS HIS BODY". The One True Church,is therefore not composed of any one of the well over 1,2OO visible,earthly, man made churches, in view today, but is a heaven based, invisible Divine Living Organism, called "THE CHURCH,WHICH IS HIS (Spiritual) BODY".

[nChrist]

Sower Said:

You say "your errrors and all".  That is a serious charge, and unless you can support it with documented evidence, it is also a "false accusation". That is not Christian love. So if you are going to accuse me of "error" you must prove it, or retract that statement. I believe I have consistently supported all my posts with the relevant Scriptures, and simply because I do not support the doctrines of men does not mean that I teach "error".

Brother Sower,

First, I would assume that you claim that you are without error, and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. That, alone, would be an error. Any mature Christian should already know they are NOT without error in their understandings and beliefs about the Holy Bible. If you wish to maintain that stance of perfection, that would simply be a continuing error.

I reject your named condemnation of servants of God, specifically servants like Pastor Stam. You are simply an anonymous entity, and you've certainly not presented any convincing evidence that he is wrong about such matters as water baptism. In fact, there are threads already on the forum about water baptism that you can't and didn't refute. Visit those threads again and try if you wish. In the meantime, beliefs pro or con about water baptism do not effect my desire to have fellowship with someone. I won't belittle you because of your stance on water baptism.

I'll have to pray about it first, but I may join you in one of the already existing threads about water baptism.

There is Love in Christ,
Tom