Jesus, Thomas, Mary, and the Glorified Body

[smartinez1984]

Hello all,

It's been a good while since I've posted... feels good to be back!

Last night we were having a rehearsal for a small Easter play we plan on having at our church and we came up on the scene where Jesus appears to the disciples. The script we had (written a few years ago by one of church members) indicated that Thomas touched Jesus (from the book of John in chapter 20). I couldn't remember this happening so I retrieved my bible and, sure enough, I couldn't see where the bible says that Thomas actually touched Jesus, all I saw was where Jesus says "Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed".

Of course, this started the debate of whether Thomas had touched Jesus, if he could have touched Jesus even though Jesus asked him to given the response to Mary when she attempted to touch him, etc.

So, I went through scripture trying to find out if there was any information that would clarify this and, since I'm posting, you probably know where I ended up...

I noticed that some translations don't use the word "touch" when referening to the conversation between Jesus and Mary but instead use either "cling" or "hold on" which would indicate that it would have been possible that Mary DID touch him. Wouldn't it?

Anyway, I figured this has probably been discussed and maybe even clarified and, if so, can someone point me to the thread and/or URL that would give some insight?

Many thanks and God Bless!

-Samson

[ollie]

 John 20:24.  But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
 25.  The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
 26.  And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
 27.  Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
 28.  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
 29.  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
 30.  And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
 31.  But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Christ told him to do it, but does it say he did? Is it an inference that he did since he saw and believed? Thomas desired to see the nail prints in His hands and put his finger in the print and to thrust his hand into His side in order to believe. Jesus told him to do it. It is infered he did because it says he believed after seeing.

The important lesson here is the blessing of believing in Christ and his ressurection with out having seen the things or proof that Thomas needed to see in order to believe.

[aw]

VINE'S Expository Dictionary defines both from the single word HAPTO. With Mary it was indeed a CLINGING TO indicated since after His ascension, communion with Him would be BY FAITH.

With Thomas, it was a direct physical touch. With the glorified body, it seems as if the spiritual SUBSTANCE of that body can change forms. He had just walked right through a door before Thomas touched Him. He could appear and disappear at will.

To think that one day we will have a body like His!!!!!!!

aw

[smartinez1984]

I think one of the main issues that was being debated was the fact that Jesus told Mary not to touch him but then told Thomas to touch. Did Jesus ascend into heaven before Thomas was asked to touch Him?

[AJ]

Well you could look at it this way...after Jesus rose from the dead he spent forty days showing himself to his followers. At the first day he told mary not to touch him because he was changing somehow and getting ready to ascend to the Father. Whos to say that at sometime in that forty days he wouldnt ascend up to heaven and then come back to appear to the rest of the deciples... forty days? thats a long time, he could have been in heaven and back as many times as he wished. Also sometimes he appeared as a man other times he appeared as a spirit...hence the walking through walls...when a man starts walking through walls whos gonna tell him where he can and cannot go?  At that time he gave Thomas permission to touch him. Then at the end he went up in front of his followers to show them the glory of his Resurrection.

Also he went to hell for three days to preach to the captives

Anyway this is JUST my view as we cant put a limit on God and his Son

God bless

[AJ]

Also if Jesus says touch then touch...if he says dont touch then dont touch

[ollie]

VINE'S Expository Dictionary defines both from the single word HAPTO. With Mary it was indeed a CLINGING TO indicated since after His ascension, communion with Him would be BY FAITH.

With Thomas, it was a direct physical touch. With the glorified body, it seems as if the spiritual SUBSTANCE of that body can change forms. He had just walked right through a door before Thomas touched Him. He could appear and disappear at will.

To think that one day we will have a body like His!!!!!!!

aw

"To think that one day we will have a body like His!!!!!!!"

Aw,
What an Awsome thought!

[aw]

I know and my mortal mind goes TILT!!!! when I think of it. Isn't it 1 Cor 15 that syays corruptible puts on incorruptible and mortality puts on immortality?

Conversely, I cannot imagine the horror of having to spend an eternity in a mortal, decaying, and disease ridden body which apparently unbelievers will have to endure.

aw

[smartinez1984]

Very interesting replies, thanks! I've read quite a few things online such as:

Jesus rose again but he was alive in our physical sense, he had no blood therefore the holes in his hands, feet, and side... interesting.

His resurrection would then differ from Lazarus and the like, they that were raised into human life only to die again. In essence, His resurrection is a precursor to our resurrection on that day, rising to never die again.

Interesting comment on the horror of eternity; can a body keep decaying for an eternity and never fully disentigrate? I guess it could if it is miraculously being continuously regenerated only to continue decaying... Is that the way it's going to be?

God Bless,

-Samson

[aw]

Hey Samson,
I don't think scripture reveals the exct condition of the bodies of people who are resurrected to DEATH. Its called the SECOND DEATH as it is eternal separation from God.

We do know that their bodies will not be glorified as ours and therefore will be grossly inferior, but the exact make-up of it is beyond my knowledge. I just know it is going to be horriffic!!!!

aw

[smartinez1984]

Aw,

Couldn't agree more. Although, personally, I don't think the condition of the body, the personal bodily suffering (whatever it may be), etc. will matter so much... the simple thought that God will no longer be within reach is horrific enough in itself.

I can't even begin to imagine any type of existence where God is no longer available to me. Jesus, thank You....

[Sower]

John 20:24.  But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
 25.  The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
 26.  And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
 27.  Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
 28.  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
 29.  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
 30.  And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
 31.  But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Christ told him to do it, but does it say he did? Is it an inference that he did since he saw and believed? Thomas desired to see the nail prints in His hands and put his finger in the print and to thrust his hand into His side in order to believe. Jesus told him to do it. It is infered he did because it says he believed after seeing.

The important lesson here is the blessing of believing in Christ and his ressurection with out having seen the things or proof that Thomas needed to see in order to believe.

Ollie:

I agree absolutely that the lesson here is that we believe without having seen with our physical eyes, but having seen Christ "with the eye of faith" only.

However, the inference that Thomas actually touched the Lord and did what He requested is just that -- an inference.

I believe it would be more consistent to conlcude from the actual words of Scripture quoted above that having seen the Lord face to face, Thomas DID NOT TOUCH THE LORD, but simply believed and worshipped.  The Lord does not say "Because thou hast touched me thou hast believed". Instead He says "Because thou hast SEEN ME thou hast believed", and then Christ contrasts this with the blessedness of those, who having not seen, have believed.

As to why Mary was forbidden from touching the Lord prior to His ascension, we can only speculate.