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Katherine
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« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2003, 10:01:53 AM »

There are Christians all over the world who are going through a tribulation of their own right now. Evangelical Christianity is already illegal in France (although it hasn't been enforced very much yet) and China is studying their new anti-cult laws. I think we know what happens to Christians in the Middle East. I am prepared for tribulation, whether it is the actual Trib or one like many Christians all over the world have endured. If we aren't prepared, we won't last when/if we have to face it and everything we've fought for this far will be lost. I've read Revelation and the spine of prophesy in the gospels--we are not promised protection in those times. I think we need to pray that we leave beforehand, but be prepared to endure it as if we know we will have to. In some shape or form we will have to.
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« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2003, 03:38:54 AM »

could i pose a few questions???
#1--when has the "church" ever been referred to as a "HE"Huh
as in rev.4.vs.1--ESpecially when it is quite clear the one being spoken to is "John"?? vs.2 qualifies "who" is being spoken to--"and immediately I {John} was in the Spirit" ---
perhaps a quick look at matt.24.vss.29.thru.31--would absolutely clarify "when" the rapture takes place???
IN vs.29--JESUS HIMSELF states "when" the rapture takes place--{immediately after the tribulation of those days}--
There is only "ONE" coming of JESUS,& that happens "after"
the trib.--which that tribulation isNOT the WRATH of GOD poured out on an unrepentant world----possibly someone could answer these apparant conflicts of scripture--with scripture if possible???thank you for listening---shadow2b--

Shadow2b,
I think you are on the right track. First is the tribulation by antichrist which will be shortened by the parousia (coming) of Jesus Christ. The rapture is the initial event of Christ's parousia. On the same day the wrath of God begins (Day of the Lord). There is only one parousia, as you said, but this coming is made up of a series of events, the rapture being the initial stage. His first coming was also a series of events that covered 33 years. Why should not His second coming involve a period of time made up of several events? I believe the rapture takes place after the opening og the 6th seal. Note the likeness of the two passages.

Rev 6:12  And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  and the stars of the heaven fell unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she is shaken of a great wind.

Mat 24:29  But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus points out in Matthew that the gathering of the elect takes place at this time. Jesus points out in Revelation that before the 7th seal is opened there will be "a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10  and they cry with a great voice, saying, Salvation unto our God who sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11  And all the angels were standing round about the throne, and about the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12  saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, These that are arrayed in white robes, who are they, and whence came they?
Rev 7:14  And I say unto him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they that come of the great tribulation..."

Note that they came out of great tribulation. This coinsides with Matthew 24 where Jesus says that the great tribulation is shortened by the signs in the heavens and the gathering of the elect. They literally came out, they were raptured. After this the seventh seal is opened in which the seven trumpets, representing the wrath of God are blown.

So the order is persecution, cosmos disturbance, rapture, and wrath.
No one knows exactly when the sixth seal will be opened, but sometime after the Abomination of Desolation during antichrist's persecution will the blessed hope begin.

asaph
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Hitch
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« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2003, 11:01:26 PM »

could i pose a few questions???
#1--when has the "church" ever been referred to as a "HE"Huh
as in rev.4.vs.1--ESpecially when it is quite clear the one being spoken to is "John"?? vs.2 qualifies "who" is being spoken to--"and immediately I {John} was in the Spirit" ---
perhaps a quick look at matt.24.vss.29.thru.31--would absolutely clarify "when" the rapture takes place???
IN vs.29--JESUS HIMSELF states "when" the rapture takes place--{immediately after the tribulation of those days}--
There is only "ONE" coming of JESUS,& that happens "after"
the trib.--which that tribulation isNOT the WRATH of GOD poured out on an unrepentant world----possibly someone could answer these apparant conflicts of scripture--with scripture if possible???thank you for listening---shadow2b--

Shadow2b,
I think you are on the right track. First is the tribulation by antichrist which will be shortened by the parousia (coming) of Jesus Christ. The rapture is the initial event of Christ's parousia. On the same day the wrath of God begins (Day of the Lord). There is only one parousia, as you said, but this coming is made up of a series of events, the rapture being the initial stage. His first coming was also a series of events that covered 33 years. Why should not His second coming involve a period of time made up of several events? I believe the rapture takes place after the opening og the 6th seal. Note the likeness of the two passages.

Rev 6:12  And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  and the stars of the heaven fell unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she is shaken of a great wind.

Mat 24:29  But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus points out in Matthew that the gathering of the elect takes place at this time. Jesus points out in Revelation that before the 7th seal is opened there will be "a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10  and they cry with a great voice, saying, Salvation unto our God who sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11  And all the angels were standing round about the throne, and about the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12  saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, These that are arrayed in white robes, who are they, and whence came they?
Rev 7:14  And I say unto him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they that come of the great tribulation..."

Note that they came out of great tribulation. This coinsides with Matthew 24 where Jesus says that the great tribulation is shortened by the signs in the heavens and the gathering of the elect. They literally came out, they were raptured. After this the seventh seal is opened in which the seven trumpets, representing the wrath of God are blown.

So the order is persecution, cosmos disturbance, rapture, and wrath.
No one knows exactly when the sixth seal will be opened, but sometime after the Abomination of Desolation during antichrist's persecution will the blessed hope begin.

asaph

Adn how do you fit this in with John 6;39?
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« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2003, 02:04:02 PM »

    For those of you who do not believe the church will be raptured before the great tribulation, I have a question.

   Are you nervous? I think you should be. God's time piece isn't TIMEX but ISRAEL!

   Israel is all important. The peace they seek brings the end time.

   The "road map to peace" is a joke. Its set up to take small steps toward peace but step three will never work.

   The plan is to defuse the tension by both sides taking small steps. Then to decide the important things like Jerusalem.

   Problem is their doing it backwards. Once the Jerusalem debate comes into play both sides will heat up and the cycle of terror will begin again.

   The real conflict is of religon not land. The way to settle the conflict is to start at the problem. The muslims have control of the Temple Mount. Jews will never accept this solution. Muslims will not accept jews on the temple mount.

    Theres the fundamental problem and if someone can solve this (Antichrist) there can be (false) peace.

    Lets play "WHAT IF". What if Israel responded to the next big suicide bombing by locking down Jerusalem and seizing control of the temple mount. Remember what started the uprising 2 years ago? Ariel Sharon stood on the temple mount steps and all hell has broken loose. Why did he do that? He's preparing Israel. If I were Sharon I'd tell the Palestians that the next suicide bombing will result in the seizing of the temple mount from their control. Not only that but I'd open up the sealed tunnels under the mountain and search for the Ark.

   Theres a red Heifer in Israel now. You don't think they see it as a sign? You don't think Jews believe that its their destiny to have a temple on that mountain? They want to have the temple and their ready to settle the issue once and for all.

   Bush can't make peace between them, nobody can except Antichrist. If Israel seizes the temple mount and finds the ark all hell will break loose. It will take Antichrist to settle the conflict.

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« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2003, 03:17:45 PM »

  I have discovered your answer! Take time to read this and allow me to explain in detail.

  The answer I have found will explain John's vision in Revelation and the rapture.

   Allow me to paint a visual picture senario for you. The Rapture of true believers happens now, Bam, millions vanish, including you. The next thing you know your standing before Jesus at the bema judgement seat. Jesus judges his Church at the bema judgement and gives rewards. 24 Elders are selected by Jesus to serve in the role of priests to him. He gives them crowns and they are seated before the throne of God. We are taken into the "place he went to prepare for us " with Jesus for the wedding week, which happens to parallel Daniel's 70th week on earth. On the final day of the wedding week we are assembled before God. This is the Day of the second coming of Christ to earth.

    John on the isle of Patmos was taken to THIS day in heaven, not the day of the rapture but to the day of the second coming! The day of the lord. John arrives in heaven and witnesses the last day. He doesn't see the bema judgement, but sees the elders of the church crowned and actively serving as priests holding the prayers of the tribulation saints. John's vision was not 7 years long. It was 1 day long, the last day.

    Back to us in heaven... We are assembled on the last day and we witness all the events of John's vision with him. We have been on a honeymoon and now we are being shown what has taken place since we left earth. We are being shown some events that have already taken place but we are shown the "cause and effect". We are shown the 7 seals broken and we are shown the effects that took place as a result. We are shown the details of 7 years, Daniel's 70th week. The 7th trumpet is the last day of Daniel's 70th week. Which happens to be the day we are gathered before God's throne in heaven witnessing everything John saw.

    John speaks with an elder who has been crowned, who could that be? the Elder asks John to identify the crowd arrayed in white robes. John does not recognize them, they are not of the church. The elder reveals to John that those arrayed in white have come up from the great tribulation, they are martyred tribulation saints. They are now at the throne of God for it is the last day. The day of the lord. At the end of John's vision Christ returns to earth for the wedding feast. We are hours away from decent.

   We are gathered together for the famous final scene. We are being shown the events of the past 7 years while we were on honeymoon. The seven bowls are poured out after the 7th trumpet but the effects take place from the mid week of Daniel's 70th week on. Satan was throne from heaven at the middle of the 70th week as the effect of the 5th trumpet judgement. We are watching what is like a movie. We are shown causes and their effects and not continous chronological time pass. We are being brought up to speed on events. Right now somewhere out in space is a comet heading for earth that will be called wormwood. It is aready in motion on a head on collision course. In heaven we will see the cause of the comet, the 3rd trumpet sounding, followed by the effect of the comet on earths water. We will be seeing the past, present and future. For with God the future is as certain as the past. John's vision shows the events of seven years in macro view and micro view. we are shown series of sevens with an interlude between the 6th and 7th of a series. Then we are given more details but not chronological in order. We witness the events of 7 years, past, present and future, on the final day of the 70th week of Daniel, and then we decend to earth.

   Can you see it now? John's vision was the Last day, the day of the second coming. We were being debriefed of what has taken place since we were raptured and taken to the place prepared for us to be with Jesus for the wedding week.
   We are about to be presented as the bride of Jesus and return to earth. We are shown the battle before the battle is fought and the outcome is certain.

   This is one of the keys to the book of Revelation. The vision is not chronological in the effects of the seals, trumpets, bowls. Many events take place the same day. The middle of the 70th week is a busy day. Satan gets thrown from heaven, Antichrist is wounded and healed and then to prove he's god kills the 2 witnesses of Revelation 11. The 6th seal effect takes place on this day as well.

    We are being shown a vision. Were not in a stadium looking down watching everything live and in the present. We are witnessing past, present and future of the final 70th week of Daniel.

                                                    Paul2
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« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2003, 11:00:45 PM »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    For those of you who do not believe the church will be raptured before the great tribulation, I have a question.

  Are you nervous? I think you should be. God's time piece isn't TIMEX but ISRAEL!

  Israel is all important. The peace they seek brings the end time.



LOL

Yeah thats why all those books about Israel ,1988 and the Rapture were  so accurate.

Hitch
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asaph
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« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2003, 11:39:26 PM »

Adn how do you fit this in with John 6;39?

Hi Hitch,
This is Keith. Long time no talk. The question I have always asked concerning this verse is: The last day of what? Is it the very last day that there will ever be? Is it the last day of an era? Jesus had a lot of other things to add to His very simple statement in John 6:39 that forces me to define the last day as something other than the very last day of all time. This to me makes sense of the other scriptures that otherwise "to me" make little sense. Perhaps you can enlighten me as to how you tie these verses together. I mean this seriously. I am not claiming I know it all. Your view point interests me.
By the way, my youngest son is now at Westpoint! Never thought it could happen to a poor old custodian/ex auto parts salesman.

asaph
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« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2003, 12:03:34 AM »

    Hitch,

   You seem to love laughing at others, while acting superior to us perhaps you'd like to demonstrate how smart you are for us all.

    This should be easy for a scholar like yourself.

    Below this is a passage from Daniel chapter 9:24

 24: Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    Perhaps you'd like to explain to us dummies when exactly did JERUSALEM, the Holy city to which this prophecy applies, fulfill the things required for the prophecy to be fulfilled?

     When did Jerusalem :

 1. Finish the transgression?
 2. Make an end of sins?
 3. Make reconciliation for iniquity?
 4. Bring in everlasting righteousness?
 5. Seal up the vision and prophecy?
 6. Anoint the most Holy?

    Please tell us when these things occured, and be specific.
You have stated before that Daniel's 70th week is complete and finished and history.

   Heres my answers to the questions above:

  1. Jerusalem hasn't Finished the transgression!
  2. Jerusalem hasn't Made an end to sins!
  3. Jerusalem hasn't Made reconciliation for iniquity!
  4. Jerusalem hasn't brought in everlasting righteousness!
  5. Jerusalem hasn't Sealed up the vision and prophecy!
  6. Jerusalem hasn't Anointed the most Holy!

     God does not lie. If Jerusalem has not completed all of the above, the 70 weeks of Daniel are not fulfilled yet. To honestly believe that Jerusalem has completed the prophecy is laughable although not funny.

    Nobody sins in Jerusalem? You see everlasting righteousness in Jerusalem do you? You can't just pick and choose parts of a prophecy. It is either totally fulfilled or it is not totally fulfilled. I would like to see the dates when each of the six things listed were fulfilled.

   Its easy to mock others but much harder to prove them wrong. The news bears witness to the FACT that Jerusalem has not fulfilled this prophecy as of now.

   O.k. Hitch, show us all how stupid we are, give us the answers to my six questions from the prophecy.

   If Daniel's 70th week took place right after the 69th week, Jerusalem should have fulfilled all six things by 40 a.d.

   If history serves me well I can recall James was killed in Jerusalem in 62 a.d. Somehow that doesn't seem to fit the six things listed in the prophecy does it? If Jerusalem had made an end of sin, how could James be martyred there?

   Then again if Jerusalem had brought in everlasting righteousness why does the news show suicide bombings in the city? How long is everlasting righteousness? What happened to it? Did God lie? Or by some strange chance might you be wrong? I doubt you'll admit your wrong, you'd rather discredit God than discredit Hitch.

 Well there you have it, six simple questions: for us dummies the answers are simple:

  1. Jerusalem hasn't Finished the transgression!
  2. Jerusalem hasn't Made an end to sins!
  3. Jerusalem hasn't Made reconciliation for iniquity!
  4. Jerusalem hasn't brought in everlasting righteousness!
  5. Jerusalem hasn't Sealed up the vision and prophecy!
  6. Jerusalem hasn't Anointed the most Holy!

  Now you show us your answers in detail please.

  LOL! good luck!                          Paul2 Cool
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asaph
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« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2003, 12:04:15 AM »

What is the first resurrection?

By Rev. Charles Cooper

"The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

With these words in Revelation 20:5-6, the apostle John introduces a new concept—the first resurrection. A natural implication in the mind of some is the notion that if there is a "first resurrection," there must be at least a "second resurrection." Scholars are divided over what constitutes the resurrection. In other words, is there one general resurrection or is there a multi-phased resurrection of the righteous separated by a thousand years from a final resurrection of the wicked? Revelation 20:5-6 clearly indicates a separation between those raised at the beginning of the 1000-year period and those raised at the end of it. What, then, is the first resurrection?

The New Testament does not have a single term for the resurrection. John 5:28-29 indicates that there will be a resurrection to life and a resurrection to judgment. However, no indication is given that these two events will not happen at the same time. It is the apostle Paul who delineates stages or groups of the resurrection. He writes, "…by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end…(1 Cor. 15:21-24a)." It is clear that Paul saw the resurrection of Christ and "those who are Christ’s at His coming" as two distinct aspects of the resurrection.

Paul designates the Lord’s resurrection as "first fruits." This is important. The term fruits in the Greek is a singular term, but represents a plural number (what is called a collective noun). The concept of a "first portion" or "first fruit" is a familiar one. In the natural order, the first fruit of any crop would involve more than one, thus, the NASB’s translation first fruits. Interestingly, Matthew 27:52-53 states, "and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many." These individuals should be included in the first fruits of the general resurrection.

The essential point that we can deduce from 1 Corinthians 15 is that the separation of one phase of the resurrection from another does not nullify the designation the general resurrection. Therefore, the indication in Revelation 20 that a resurrection will occur in close proximity to the beginning of the millennium is consistent with the teachings of the apostle Paul. John limits this particular resurrection to those beheaded for refusing to actively participate in the worship of Antichrist. Killed for their faithfulness to Christ, the beheaded faithful are blessed because they have "a part (literally, to experience along with others [Louw/Nida, § 90.83]) in the first resurrection." Only by spiritualizing this passage and ignoring the textual details can this group be made to represent all believers of all the ages. John clearly intends a smaller group, every single one of them, beheaded.

Consequently, we are able to posit that John’s resurrection to life and his first resurrection both refer to a general multi-phased resurrection of the righteous. It stretches from the resurrection of Christ and those raised with Him (Mat. 24:52-53), to those raised at the Rapture/Parousia (1 Cor. 15:23), to those beheaded martyrs raised in close proximity to the beginning of the millennium (Rev. 20:4-5). This is the first resurrection.

John does not designate the resurrection that will follow the millennium as the "second resurrection." Probably the reason John does not do this is that the resurrection after the millennium will be distinctively different from the first. In Revelation 20:5, John records that "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed." This by definition must involve the wicked that have not been raised to this point in biblical chronology. Revelation 20:11-15 describes the resurrection unto judgment, which John alluded to in John 5:38-39. This judgment is generally called the white throne judgment. John states that anyone’s whose name is not found in the book of life such a one will be thrown into the lake of fire—the second death.

That the book of life would be consulted at this point highlights the fact that both believers and unbelievers will be present at this judgment. Isaiah 65:17-25 supports this conclusion. There, Isaiah indicates that those who enter the kingdom in physical bodies will live long lives during the temporal kingdom on earth. However, he also indicates that these people will die. While the resurrected saints will not die, those Jews and Gentiles who survive the sheep and goat judgment of Matthew 25:31ff will enter the kingdom, but will not live the entire 1,000 years. Thus "the white throne judgment" will involve all the wicked dead of all the ages – with the exception of Antichrist, the false prophet (Rev 20:10) and the goats from the sheep and goat judgment of Matthew 25:41 – and the righteous dead who died during the 1000 years.

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« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2003, 07:53:27 PM »

   There are 2 types of resurrection, the resurrection unto life, and the resurrection unto death. Are you with me so far? Good.

   The resurrection unto life is the first resurrection. Still with me? Good.

   There are three distint groups of people that will be part of the first resurrection unto life. The Church is the first group, the Old Testament Saints are second group, the Tribulation Saints are the third group.

   The Church is the first stage of the first resurrection. The church has a special destiny apart from the Old testament Saints and Tribulation Saints. The Church is the Bride of Christ and is Raptured and taken to heaven to the place prepared for us by Jesus to experience the wedding week which parallels Daniel's 70th week on earth.

   At the end of the wedding week and last day of Daniel's 70th week the second stage of the first resurrection takes place and the Martyred Tribulation Saints are resurrected.
The Old Testament Saints are resurrected, and the people who survivors of Armmegeddon are judged.

                                                        Paul2
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« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2003, 08:21:57 PM »

Adn how do you fit this in with John 6;39?

Hi Hitch,
This is Keith. Long time no talk. The question I have always asked concerning this verse is: The last day of what? Is it the very last day that there will ever be? Is it the last day of an era? Jesus had a lot of other things to add to His very simple statement in John 6:39 that forces me to define the last day as something other than the very last day of all time. This to me makes sense of the other scriptures that otherwise "to me" make little sense. Perhaps you can enlighten me as to how you tie these verses together. I mean this seriously. I am not claiming I know it all. Your view point interests me.
By the way, my youngest son is now at Westpoint! Never thought it could happen to a poor old custodian/ex auto parts salesman.

asaph
S A L U  T E ! I expect you'll be telling us how well he is doing as the days pass.

Well K the first place to look is the text.  Since I dont need it to be the 'last day' of any certain era, (church age perhaps? find that one in the Scriptures,,) a straightforward reading is all that is needed. The complications only come when something written AFTER this word from our Lord's own lips  was first heard, is interjected into the time line.

As for the term,  half the uses of this term  are found in this chapter. Seven of eight  uses are found in John's book. But I wonder,,, do you allow that 'raise up' means anything other than resurrection?  Back to work,, In 7;37 'last day' is qualified with 'of the feast'. This tells us two things,  at least in  chapter seven a literal understanding is required.  We also can note that when neccessary, as in your question "last day of what? , when a qualifier is need it is provided.

Nehemiah 8;18 is the only OT usage. A cursory look will reveal ,interestingly enough, that the 'last day' is in this case positively literal, and is also qualified  as the last day of a feast.

This leaves six uses in John. Each is directly related to the resurrection. Five are spoken by our Lord  personally . One is spoken to our Lord. Seems that a plain straight forward 'literal' understanding is demanded by the text,  there being no  qualifications  which our Lord was most able to provide,  so there is no reason to adjust the meaning unless  later writtings are given greater wieght and used to set the context from back to front. Does the Resurrection account make sense without the Cross?

In contrast we have our Lord's own previosly spoken words regarding the resurrection.


John 5:24-29
24   Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (a present reality)
25   Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


 So folks have gotten  pretty wierd notions up to make this work. I reckon is pretty simple.  Jesus is speaking of 'spiritually dead' and some even at that time were being raise dup this was through the born-again process. also John uses this term in his letters to describe the bretheren.

26   For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27   And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28   Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (future reality)
29   And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(KJV)

V28 is a different story. Christ has just warned the he alone is the ultimate Judge. To us this is obvious,to them it was brand new and astonishing news. He declares that 'all who are in the graves' shall hear his voice. Again this a vastly different from  v25. In this case the evil and the good hear the call to bodily resurrection. It takes some  advanced gymnastics to  fit any time lapse into v 29 at all much less 1,000 years. (or 1007 as some do). .

This is what sets the context for his speach on the resurrection in chapter six. Not whatever Paul says decades later. Not what we read in the Apocalypse which doesnt exist at this time. Those things must conform to what our Lord has spoken, not the other way around.

So here is the challenge;

Find a reason to not place a face value (literal) understanding at 'last day' in chapter six the very same way you do use a literal understanding of 'raise up', useing something which could affect the context, meaning something which came  before this was spoken. That leaves the entire OT.

I'l wait to see if you find anything.

Take care

Hitch

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« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2003, 08:31:56 PM »

   Hitch,

   You seem to love laughing at others, while acting superior to us perhaps you'd like to demonstrate how smart you are for us all.

    This should be easy for a scholar like yourself.

    Below this is a passage from Daniel chapter 9:24

 24: Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    Perhaps you'd like to explain to us dummies when exactly did JERUSALEM, the Holy city to which this prophecy applies, fulfill the things required for the prophecy to be fulfilled?

     When did Jerusalem :

 1. Finish the transgression?
 2. Make an end of sins?
 3. Make reconciliation for iniquity?
 4. Bring in everlasting righteousness?
 5. Seal up the vision and prophecy?
 6. Anoint the most Holy?

    Please tell us when these things occured, and be specific.
You have stated before that Daniel's 70th week is complete and finished and history.

   Heres my answers to the questions above:

  1. Jerusalem hasn't Finished the transgression!
  2. Jerusalem hasn't Made an end to sins!
  3. Jerusalem hasn't Made reconciliation for iniquity!
  4. Jerusalem hasn't brought in everlasting righteousness!
  5. Jerusalem hasn't Sealed up the vision and prophecy!
  6. Jerusalem hasn't Anointed the most Holy!

     God does not lie. If Jerusalem has not completed all of the above, the 70 weeks of Daniel are not fulfilled yet. To honestly believe that Jerusalem has completed the prophecy is laughable although not funny.

    Nobody sins in Jerusalem? You see everlasting righteousness in Jerusalem do you? You can't just pick and choose parts of a prophecy. It is either totally fulfilled or it is not totally fulfilled. I would like to see the dates when each of the six things listed were fulfilled.

   Its easy to mock others but much harder to prove them wrong. The news bears witness to the FACT that Jerusalem has not fulfilled this prophecy as of now.

   O.k. Hitch, show us all how stupid we are, give us the answers to my six questions from the prophecy.

   If Daniel's 70th week took place right after the 69th week, Jerusalem should have fulfilled all six things by 40 a.d.

   If history serves me well I can recall James was killed in Jerusalem in 62 a.d. Somehow that doesn't seem to fit the six things listed in the prophecy does it? If Jerusalem had made an end of sin, how could James be martyred there?

   Then again if Jerusalem had brought in everlasting righteousness why does the news show suicide bombings in the city? How long is everlasting righteousness? What happened to it? Did God lie? Or by some strange chance might you be wrong? I doubt you'll admit your wrong, you'd rather discredit God than discredit Hitch.

 Well there you have it, six simple questions: for us dummies the answers are simple:

  1. Jerusalem hasn't Finished the transgression!
  2. Jerusalem hasn't Made an end to sins!
  3. Jerusalem hasn't Made reconciliation for iniquity!
  4. Jerusalem hasn't brought in everlasting righteousness!
  5. Jerusalem hasn't Sealed up the vision and prophecy!
  6. Jerusalem hasn't Anointed the most Holy!

  Now you show us your answers in detail please.

  LOL! good luck!                          Paul2 Cool

God does not lie. If Jerusalem has not completed all of the above, the 70 weeks of Daniel are not fulfilled yet.

So whan he says 'SEVENTY WEEKS'  (and gives  reason to uderstand these are 'weeks of years' or  'seven sevens') He doesn t lie. Niether does he make mistakes.

Your details are not hard Paul, and I will answer directly as soon as you reconcile  your own statement above  God does not lie and the begining of the passage you brought up;

Dan 9:24
24   Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people
(KJV)

He can count too.

Take care

Hitch
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« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2003, 08:36:53 PM »

    The famous seventh Trumpet announces the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus has come. This is the last day of Daniel's 70th week on earth. Notice the verse in bold type


Revelation 11:15  "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
   16: And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
   17: Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
   18: And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
   19: And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

   Compare the above verses to the seventh vial passages




 17: And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
   18: And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

   19: And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
   20: And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
  21: And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

     They are both the same event. The 7th trumpet is the announcement that Jesus is now beginning His kingdom, The 7th vial or bowl is the judgement plaque of the earthquake and hail.

    The 7th trumpet and the 7th vial both take place on the last day of Daniel's 70th week. Jesus is returning to earth to establish His kingdom, this is the Day of the second coming!

    John sees the resurrection of the Tribulation Saints, after he has already seen them in heaven, sort of a flash back. John is asked to identify the tribulation saints but doesn't recognize them. He might have been thinking to himself "how did they get here" and in chapter 20 he is shown how they are resurrected.

   All the events of Revelation are not chronolgical, some are but many aren't. You are getting an overview of 7 years, what takes place on earth and in heaven. John sees past, present and future, because to God its all the same. God sees our future in past tense. He has declared the outcome from the beginning. God is awesome! He reveals truth, and reveals lies.

                                                             Paul2


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« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2003, 08:52:33 PM »

     Hitch,

    God can also STOP THE CLOCK which he did after  Palm Sunday 32 a.d. The 70th week has not begun yet just as Jerusalem has not entered into the 70th week yet.

    You'll know when the 70th week is complete because Jerusalem will be perfect, Sinless, Righteous forever. As long as buses are blown up in Jerusalem the 70th week has not been fulfilled.

    Yes, its that simple!                  

p.s. nice DODGE of an answer, I'm not fun to debate am I?

      The truth is tough to beat!                  Paul2 Cool
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asaph
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« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2003, 10:22:18 PM »

Hitch,
What you are saying is compelling but I have a question. Can God add revelation to clarify a previous statement that Jesus made? After all Jesus did say that the Comforter would show them things to come, things that prviously were not shown to them, even by Himself. Paul said in 1Co 15:51,52  Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Now a mystery is defined by Webster:
MYS'TERY, n. [L. mysterium; Gr. a secret. This word in Greek is rendered also murium latibulum; but probably both senses are from that of hiding or shutting; Gr. to shut, to conceal.

1. A profound secret; something wholly unknown or something kept cautiously concealed, and therefore exciting curiosity or wonder; such as the mystery of the man with the iron mask in France.

2. In religion, any thing in the character or attributes of
God, or in the economy of divine providence, which is not revealed to man.

3. That which is beyond human comprehension until explained. In this sense, mystery often conveys the idea of something awfully sublime or important; something that excites wonder.

A mystery is something that was not previously known but Paul says he is going to show it to them. So this is something that even Jesus did not reveal till now by Paul.

If we take Jesus' words literally, and we do, then we must take Pauls words and John's words literally also, unless qualified by context.

God told Daniel a simple truth in Chapter 12.

Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Sounds like one ressurrection because some information is withheld.  But later God says:

Dan 12:9  ... Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

So God is saving revelation for the time of the end. Shall we not accept it when it comes because it was not previously spoken in this manner? Does the later revelation make the former truth non-literal? Of course not, it clarifies what was previously spoken.

Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Here we have two ressurrections. They cannot be the same ressurrection and certainly do not have to take place at the same time. The character of each is unique. One concerns the righteous the other the evil. We know from later teaching that the good people receive glorified bodies but the evil are not raised incorruptable. Paul admits to order in ressurrection: Christ the firstfruits, then they that are His (what about the damned?)at His coming, then follows the end. So according to this verse the last day is before the very end. Remember Paul is showing us a mystery not previously known.
I could go on and on but I think I bored you enough. Wink

asaph


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