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Author Topic: The Controlled Fall  (Read 2185 times)
Netchaplain
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« on: November 29, 2012, 10:38:41 PM »

I do not believe Satan transferred sin to Eve that wasn't already resident within her and Adam. Their disobedience was evidence of possessing a sin nature prior to the act. I believe the Enemy did not inject something but rather revealed something preexisting.

Eve's disobedience was due to deception, for "Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" (1 Tim 2:14); "the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty" (2 Cor 11:3). The evidence of her sin nature was that she saw, "a tree to be desired to make one wise" (Gen 3:6); and we must realize this was before the temptation.

These three causes of Eve in Genesis 3:6 have been paralleled with 1 John 2:16; "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh (good for food), and the lust of the eyes (pleasant to the eyes), and the pride of life (desired to make one wise), is not of the Father, but is of the world." She was familiar with the fact that "out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food" (Gen 2:9), but this scenario did not apply to a tree to be desired to make one wise.

Adam's disobedience was due to putting God's word second to his wife, for he "hearkened unto the voice of thy wife" (Gen 3:17). Scripture is not clear concerning Adam's reason for the disobedience, other than "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat" (Gen 3:12). This sounds like blame but I think Adam was just stating a truth, not blaming Eve because my conjecture is that out of compassion for Eve, he was willing to die with her.

The crux of this concept is to portray that God in His omniscience "worketh all things after the counsel of His own will" (Eph 1:11); "according to His own purpose and grace" (2 Tim 1:9). Simply put, what transpired was the way He desired it to go, or He would have done it another way.
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« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2012, 09:10:58 AM »

To have already had a sin nature means that God created them with that nature, a nature that was an 'inherent character or basic constitution of a person'. God did not create that which is inherently evil for,

1Jn 1:5  This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Sin was not found in them until after they chose to disobey God so a sin nature could not have existed.

Eze 28:15  Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Ecc 7:29  Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

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« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2012, 09:57:58 AM »

The "Fall of Man" was ALL man's fault - not God's fault. God gave man choice and free will - man did the rest after being tempted. God's foreknowledge of all things before the foundation of the world does not hint that God caused man to disobey. God could have created men like robots with a perfectly obedient spirit and no choice or free will, but that's not what God did. It was ALL about man's choice to obey or disobey, and man chose to disobey God. It really is just this simple. Trying to blame God in some way is wrong.
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« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2012, 03:20:35 PM »

To have already had a sin nature means that God created them with that nature, a nature that was an 'inherent character or basic constitution of a person'. God did not create that which is inherently evil for,

1Jn 1:5  This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Sin was not found in them until after they chose to disobey God so a sin nature could not have existed.

Eze 28:15  Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Ecc 7:29  Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Hi S4C - My premise for the sinful nature of Adam and Eve is based on the concept that only Deity can be sinless, for "there is none good but one, that is, God".  It's my thought that Adam being created in the "image" and "likeness" of God does not confirm exactness of nature but similarity of being alike in appearance (head, eyes, etc.) and general knowledge.

To me, an acceptable example is the fact that this is the same for Satan (Ezek 28:12-19), who had no external influence.  God knew before creating him what He would use him for in his decision to sin, and man's also, which came from within self, which concurs with James 1:14; "But every man (or angle) is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed". 

It's obvious the concept in my post is not clearly supported by Scripture and therefore to me it is considered speculation.  The primary intention of the concept is that regardless when sin was conceived, God had foreknowledge of using it all in His plan.  Since God is omniscient it cannot avoided concerning the fact that He knew they would disobey when He was instructing them.

I find it also important to note that they knew the difference between right and wrong.  They knew what God allowed was right when He told them they may eat of the other trees and similarly, they knew it was wrong to do what God forbid; hence the repentance afterwards evidenced by the shame.

Thanks for your reply and God's blessings to your Family! 
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« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2012, 03:32:17 PM »

The "Fall of Man" was ALL man's fault - not God's fault. God gave man choice and free will - man did the rest after being tempted. God's foreknowledge of all things before the foundation of the world does not hint that God caused man to disobey. God could have created men like robots with a perfectly obedient spirit and no choice or free will, but that's not what God did. It was ALL about man's choice to obey or disobey, and man chose to disobey God. It really is just this simple. Trying to blame God in some way is wrong.

Hi nC and God's blessings to your Family!  Even though my post may appear to you as blaming God, it's not my intention.  As in my reply to to S4C sin is always blamed on the sinner, per James 1:14.  Also, when I see disagreeable material that is not salvation-essential, I do not put much credence in it.  The material in my post is not salvation-essential and should be considered speculation.
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« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2012, 08:52:53 AM »

The fall of man is indeed essential to salvation. It is the very reason why man is in need of salvation. If Adam and Eve had not fallen due to disobedience there would have been no curse, hence no death, no separation from God and no need for being saved. Scripture is indeed very clear on this matter. It gives verse after verse throughout the Bible that supports exactly this. We have given just a few of them here in this thread.

God having foreknowledge does not change the facts that He gave mankind a choice and they made the wrong choice therefore sin entered the world. To say otherwise is to say that God did not create that which was 'good' but rather would be saying that God purposefully created that which is evil. Intent or not that is the jist of your thoughts. So your thoughts are indeed wrong as they do go against what scripture most clearly teaches.

The shame that Adam and Eve had afterwards came from eating of the "Tree of the knowledge of good and evil" as is also clearly stated in the Bible.

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« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2012, 03:08:26 PM »

The fall of man is indeed essential to salvation. It is the very reason why man is in need of salvation.

Hi S4C - My reference to this is not the fact of the fall, but to the understanding of it!

My intention for this issue is not to convince others of this concept.  As I stated, it is just my speculation.

The primary point I make in that post is that it was not a mistake that they did what they did, because I believe that everything in this life can be considered foreordained by God because everything is foreknown by Him.  If stands to reason that if He did not want it to transpire this way, He would have done it another way, when He conceived it from eternity past.  It's all in the understanding of His omniscience.  He knew about it all, even prior to creating.

I do believe I owe an apology to all who take this concept offensive. Not because of the concept, but because of its unorthodox content, which I always share out of desire for fellowship, not opposition. 
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« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2012, 09:11:41 AM »

Foreknowledge by God does not necessarily mean that it was foreordained by Him. Yes God could easily have made man (and Angels) without the ability to choose to sin or not. But then we all would be robots following and worshiping Him without choice. God wants us to worship Him willingly, not because we are without choice. There is also a difference between having a sin nature and having the ability to choose between sin and not sinning.

As was said before sin was not an 'inherent character or basic constitution of a person', the sin nature, in Adam for God could not be present with that which was sinful. That became inherited in mankind through Adam after he chose to sin, which was then the separation from God.
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« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2012, 09:58:40 AM »

Yes God could easily have made man (and Angels) without the ability to choose to sin or not. But then we all would be robots following and worshiping Him without choice. God wants us to worship Him willingly, not because we are without choice.

My thread agrees with you here and it does not challenge our autonomy concerning our choices, which is God-given, for this is what incurs accountability.   The overall concept in this thread to me is the fact that since God foreknew their choices, it which makes what they did part of His plans, which He already established prior to creating.

May our correspondence concerning this or any issue be out of brotherly-love and for truth's sake, which otherwise would prove vain.  Agreed?
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« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2012, 11:43:17 AM »

All I need to know about man's state at the time of God's Creation involves the exegesis of two very simple Scriptures:

Genesis 1:27 KJV  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 1:31 KJV  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Start your exegesis with innocence, perfection, and the absence of evil in man. There is much more, including the blessing God gave to what He had made. God provided everything man would need or desire for success. This is all I have left to say on this matter, and I do say it in brotherly love.
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« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2012, 02:03:50 PM »

I owe an apology for this thread if the subject and my replies in any way offended or seemed to be contentious towards anyone, and it is of a truth that this is never my intention; but rather to "exhort one another".

Regardless, Love You in Christ! <><
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The Christian life is not our living a life like Christ, or our trying to be Christ-like, nor is it Christ giving us the power to live a life like His; but it is Christ Himself living His own life through us; 'no longer I, but Christ.'"
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« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2012, 07:49:56 PM »

Brother,

I'm not upset or offended, so no apology is necessary to me.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2012, 08:22:59 PM »

Brother,

I'm not upset or offended, so no apology is necessary to me.

Love In Christ,
Tom


Thanks for letting me know Tom.  I didn't see enough replies to suspect anyone of offense but just wanted to be sure due to the uncommon concept.  I'm trusting the same is for S4C too!  After all, it is a highly precarious concept but it's good to be able to share what's on your heart without suspecting excessive adverse responses, as it is on this site.  Everything I share here I also share on many other Christian forums (always looking for more) and the replies with this thread were moderately active with negligible adversity.

Seated With Him
Bob
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« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2012, 09:52:29 PM »

I am not upset nor offended either. I have seen no reason to be offended.
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« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2012, 11:09:26 PM »

I am not upset nor offended either. I have seen no reason to be offended.

Thank you too Brother for letting me know!  I would also like to know how the font size is changed.  It stays the same when I use the A size control.. 
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