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Author Topic: God Created Adam Sin-ful  (Read 1588 times)
sonofHilkiah
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« on: November 20, 2012, 07:58:19 PM »

The Biblical definition of sin is literally "to miss the mark."

What is the "mark?"

The glory of God.

Adam and the woman (Eve) would have died in TIME even if they had not disobeyed God and eaten of the forbidden tree.
Since God cannot reduplicate Himself in Himself, anything and anyone not God falls short of His glory. Only the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit can stand before each other because there is only One God. Adam fell short of this glory. He was not eternal, he was not holy, he was not righteous. There is only One God, and since God cannot reduplicate Himself in Himself, anything and anyone not God would fall short of the glory that is God.

Romans 8:20
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,


This is speaking of man.

Adam was dying before he ate of the forbidden tree. In TIME he would have died whether or not he disobeyed God. Paul says:

Romans 7:7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.


The existence of the Law or command of God (Thou shalt not), is proof that man is a sinner. Paul needed not have committed the sin of lusting to have been deemed a sinner by the Law or command of God. The existence of a Law of God in the garden proves Adam sinned because he was a sinner, and not that he was a sinner because he sinned. Adam had not known disobedience except the law (or command) of God had said, "Thou shalt not eat of "it" (the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil." Adam was created falling short of the glory of God, or sin-ful, because there is only One God, and God did not, nor cannot transfer nor reduplicate any of His attributes or nature into man.

Romans 3:23
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


It is not the acts of sin that make us a sinner. We are naturally born a sinner because again, there is only One God. And because of this the Doctrine of Imputation remains sound and intact.
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nChrist
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« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2012, 10:47:14 AM »

No, Adam was not created sinful. You need to go back and read Genesis. Adam and Eve were not sinners until they disobeyed God. The "Fall of Man" because of disobedience is well-documented. I'm not going to debate this with you. What you've said is not Biblical and is, at best, resulting from misinterpretation.

Genesis 1:26-31 KJV  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.  27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.  28  And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.  29  And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.  30  And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.  31  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
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sonofHilkiah
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« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2012, 10:56:00 AM »

No, Adam was not created sinful. You need to go back and read Genesis. Adam and Eve were not sinners until they disobeyed God. The "Fall of Man" because of disobedience is well-documented. I'm not going to debate this with you. What you've said is not Biblical and is, at best, resulting from misinterpretation.

Genesis 1:26-31 KJV  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.  27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.  28  And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.  29  And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.  30  And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.  31  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


So, Adam was sinless?
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« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2012, 12:02:49 PM »

So, Adam was sinless?

You need to go back and read my reply again. It was very simple.

Repeated:

No, Adam was not created sinful. You need to go back and read Genesis. Adam and Eve were not sinners until they disobeyed God. The "Fall of Man" because of disobedience is well-documented. I'm not going to debate this with you. What you've said is not Biblical and is, at best, resulting from misinterpretation.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 12:05:03 PM by nChrist » Logged

sonofHilkiah
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« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2012, 07:21:24 PM »

You need to go back and read my reply again. It was very simple.

Repeated:

No, Adam was not created sinful. You need to go back and read Genesis. Adam and Eve were not sinners until they disobeyed God. The "Fall of Man" because of disobedience is well-documented. I'm not going to debate this with you. What you've said is not Biblical and is, at best, resulting from misinterpretation.

I read it. It is incorrect. And you haven't answered my question: Was Adam sinless?
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« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2012, 08:57:01 AM »

I read it. It is incorrect. And you haven't answered my question: Was Adam sinless?

On the contrary, nChrist did in fact answer your question. Adam was created without sin. That is why he said, "No, Adam was not created sinful." Really a very plain and simple answer to your question that you asked yet again. If you can't understand that then it is obvious why you don't understand scripture either.

Jas 1:13  Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16  Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Jas 1:17  Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.


If what you say is true then sin entered into the world when Adam was created when in fact God tells us that sin did not enter into the world until Adam disobeyed God.

Rom 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

You are also saying that God has created that which is not perfect and yet scripture clearly tells us that what He created was "very good" not evil.

Gen_1:31  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

So yes Adam was sinless until he yielded to temptation and disobeyed God. That is when sin entered into the world.
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sonofHilkiah
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« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2012, 12:07:12 PM »

Quote
On the contrary, nChrist did in fact answer your question. Adam was created without sin. That is why he said, "No, Adam was not created sinful." Really a very plain and simple answer to your question that you asked yet again. If you can't understand that then it is obvious why you don't understand scripture either.

Jas 1:13  Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16  Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Jas 1:17  Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

James is talking about being tempted, and God does not entice or tempt His creation to outright sin against Him, but Adam was already sin-ful. There is only One God. And if not sin-ful, then Adam was sinless and would not have sinned. The Second Adam, Jesus Christ, PROVES this. Jesus Christ was sinless and did no sin neither was guile found in His mouth. There are no degrees of holiness or sinlessness. One is either sinless or sin-ful. And since sinlessness is the nature and attribute of God, there is only ONE God, and Adam did not possess any deific attributes or nature of God. Christ, the Second Adam, did.


Quote
If what you say is true then sin entered into the world when Adam was created when in fact God tells us that sin did not enter into the world until Adam disobeyed God.

Rom 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
If we are sinners because we sin, then the Doctrine of Imputation is destroyed, for in the Doctrine of Imputation it is a nature swap. We are imputed Christ's righteous nature and Christ is imputed our sin-ful nature. It is NOT Christ is imputed our sinful acts, and we are imputed His righteous acts. For in this the nature remains. And Adam sinned because he was a sinner, NOT that he was a sinner because he sinned.


Quote
You are also saying that God has created that which is not perfect and yet scripture clearly tells us that what He created was "very good" not evil.

Gen_1:31  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

So yes Adam was sinless until he yielded to temptation and disobeyed God. That is when sin entered into the world.

This "Good" does not mean "morally good," but "good to specification," or "good enough" (for purpose).

And if Adam was sinless like Jesus Christ then you are saying that sin can com e from holy and I will have to ask you, God is holy. How long before sin come from God if sin comes from holy and holy can sin.

No, I don't think you have really thought this through.

Adam was created sin-ful. Sin is defined in Scripture as "missing the mark." What is that "mark?"

The glory and perfection of God.

There is only ONE God.

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« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2012, 06:24:56 PM »

Your little word game of semantics means nothing. Nobody said that Adam was God, but Adam was NOT a sinner until he disobeyed God. You need to read and study your Bible. Start with what you've already been given. This is Bible Basics and shouldn't be causing any mature Christian a problem.
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sonofHilkiah
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« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2012, 07:38:24 PM »

Your little word game of semantics means nothing. Nobody said that Adam was God, but Adam was NOT a sinner until he disobeyed God. You need to read and study your Bible. Start with what you've already been given. This is Bible Basics and shouldn't be causing any mature Christian a problem.
As I said, if Adam wasn't a sinner until he sinned, then he was sinless?

No, Adam was not sinless. He was sin-ful. He was created falling short of the glory of God.

He sinned because he was a sinner.

There is only ONE God.
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« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2012, 09:38:56 AM »

Yes, James is talking about being tempted. Even Jesus was tempted. The difference between Adam and Jesus in this is that Jesus did not fall to temptation and Adam did. As was said, sin entered into the world at the time that Adam fell to temptation, the disobedience to God. As scripture says it was then and then only that death entered the world'

Rom 5:19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

And yes you are playing semantics twisting words to suit your theology. As the word is the same word used in Genesis when speaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adding adjectives to the word as you are doing does change it's meanings somewhat. Scripture does not say 'good enough' it simply says good. It was the disobedience, the eating of the forbidden fruit, that brought sin and death into the world and "many were made sinners".

As nChrist said you need to do some more studying.
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sonofHilkiah
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« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2012, 09:49:36 AM »

Yes, James is talking about being tempted. Even Jesus was tempted. The difference between Adam and Jesus in this is that Jesus did not fall to temptation and Adam did. As was said, sin entered into the world at the time that Adam fell to temptation, the disobedience to God. As scripture says it was then and then only that death entered the world'

Rom 5:19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

And yes you are playing semantics twisting words to suit your theology. As the word is the same word used in Genesis when speaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adding adjectives to the word as you are doing does change it's meanings somewhat. Scripture does not say 'good enough' it simply says good. It was the disobedience, the eating of the forbidden fruit, that brought sin and death into the world and "many were made sinners".

As nChrist said you need to do some more studying.

So Jesus was born after His kind (Adam) and the only difference was that Jesus was able to refuse the temptation that Adam succumed to? BUT Adam was not Jesus' Father. This means that Jesus was sinless and unable to sin. He was holy and sin does not come from holy. Sin comes from sin-ful, or sinner.

You can't interpret Scripture using the translation. Even in English the word "good" has many definitions. But in Genesis the word good does not mean morally good, or perfectly good, it means godd as in "to specifications." You cannot say morally good because that's taking a great big leap into heresy.

Adam disobeyed because he was a sinner. If Adam was righteous he would not have disobeyed. Jesus, the Second Adam, PROVES this. If Adam was holy he would not have disobeyed. The Second Adam, Jesus Christ, PROVES this. Jesus was holy. Jesus was righteous. Jesus did not sin because sin DOES NOT come from righteous. Sin DOES NOT come from that which is holy.

Adam was not righteous. Adam was not holy. Adam was created sin-ful, or missing the mark of the glory of God.

There is only ONE God.

Many really do not understand this.
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« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2012, 10:10:54 AM »

Yes, there is only one God and He is perfect. So perfect that He did NOT create that which is sinful. Sin does not come from that which is Holy and God is indeed Holy. Adam was given a choice between good and evil. He made that choice through his disobedience and we all now live in it.

I will not continue any further with this conversation as it is turning into nothing but a fruitless argument. I have already given you many verses on this subject. There are many more connected to them that will help you in your studies. I pray that you will continue in those studies.

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« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2012, 10:13:20 AM »

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