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Hugh-MANN
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« on: March 25, 2012, 01:30:33 AM »

On March 11, 2006 the Colonel posted

 
 Acts 2:38 Baptism in Jesus Name
« on: March 11, 2006, 05:45:58 PM »  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a simple question and that is, in the book of Acts the only mode or formula used for baptism was in the Name of Jesus Christ, my question is why is  not this the formula used throughout christianiity today?


A short while later Soldier4Christ responded,

God Bless in Jesus Name



 

 Re: Acts 2:38 Baptism in Jesus Name
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2006, 06:25:17 PM »  



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As in most such things men tend to go their own way.





In my opinion, this is the best answer given!

 

As I survey the rest of the replies posted, I am amazed at the lengths that some people will go to try and twist the intent of Acts 2:38 just because it does not fit conveniently into their own Creed or Personal Theology!

 

Of those who posted replies in this thread the first thing that I would ask each of you,

 

Has any one of you actually been Baptized in the Name of Jesus?

 

If Not, How then can you speak with Authority on this subject?
[/size][/size][/color]

 

 

Some might respond that they Speak with the Authority of the Written Word as the Holy Spirit Illuminates their Understanding!

 

This would be an excellent answer except that everybody else can also make the same claim!


 

Nobody seems to be on the same sheet of music and it is obvious that the Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself!

 

While trying to remain humble, let me state that I have been Baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ, therefore, I can speak with the Authority based upon 35 years of personal experience!

 

It is my intention to reopen this thread and shed some additional light on this very controversial subject!

 

 However, before I can do that, I feel the necessity to clear up a language problem!

 

The term Saved, Salvation, Savior, etc, is highly abused!  Most professing believers don't know the meaning of the word in Hebrew and Greek and to further complicate the situation, they will then try to formulate their Doctrines of SOTEROLOGY based upon their own limited experience, or even worse, their total lack of experience!

 Your Brother In Christ

Hugh Mann

 

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Hugh-MANN
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« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2012, 01:51:48 AM »

Salvation


A Rose is a Rose is a Rose!


 

A Rose by Any Other Name

Would Still Smell Just as Sweet!
[/b][/size][/size]

 

You can't make a Silk Purse

out of a Sow's Ear!

 

Many of the divisions within the Church are centered on the requirements for Salvation! This is due, in part, because of the meaning of the word! Many Opinions on the subject have been expressed, and many Doctrines have been formulated based upon man's understanding of the word Salvation as it used in their Native Translations, without giving heed to the meaning of the word as it was delivered in the Original Language texts! Because of this, many people are using the word Save, or Salvation to express concepts that are not entirely accurate! Even though the whole world referred to a cow as a frog, cows would still be cows, and frogs would still be frogs!


 

As we seek to Rightly Divide the Word of Truth, we must remember that one word in the Hebrew, or Greek Languages, may have several different interpretations, any, or all of which may apply! The reverse is also true! One word in English, may have several different renderings in Hebrew or Greek!



As we consider all that God has for us, many events may seem to happen simultaneously, or in such rapid succession that they seem simultaneous! This is one of the reasons that the word for salvation is so misused!

 

Too often people will try to make the Scriptures conform to their own personal experience, (or lack thereof), rather than making their personal experience conform to the Scriptures! Some people will try to lump a multitude of events under one label!


 

Each person's experience is unique! God has allowed some flexibility because of this. One person may experience these events in a different order of succession from someone else! I believe that it is vitally important that every believer receive all that God has for them!


 

If we attempt to lump all these events into one container, and call that container Salvation, someone might not receive all that God has for them, yet be deceived into believing that they had! We should not seek to oversimplify, nor overcomplicate the Gospel! However to avoid Doctrinal Errors, it is essential that we call each event by it's proper name, and only by it's proper name! It is not my place to sit in judgement over another person's Salvation experience! They were there when it happened, they know exactly what happened to them, however they might not have experienced all that God has made available, and be lulled into a false sense of security, by someone else's attempt to oversimplify the Gospel!


 

There are five different root words in the Greek language that are translated into English as Save, Saved, Saving, or Salvation! In addition there is one other word that is translated as "except," which is not relevant to this conversation!


 

The following definitions have been extracted from Strong's Greek Dictionary of the New Testament, which is part of his Exhaustive Concordance!


4982.  sozo, sode´-zo; from a primary sw`" sos (contr. for obs. savo" saos, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (lit. or fig.):— heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

 

4990.  soter, so-tare´; from 4982; a deliverer, i.e. God or Christ:— saviour.

4991.  soteria, so-tay-ree´-ah; fem. of a der. of 4990 as (prop. abstr.) noun; rescue or safety (phys. or mor.):— deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.

4992. soterion, so-tay´-ree-on; neut. of the same as 4991 as (prop. concr.) noun; defender or (by impl.) defence:— salvation.

 

1295.  diasozo, dee-as-odze´-o; from 1223 and 4982; to save thoroughly, i.e. (by impl. or anal.) to cure, preserve, rescue, etc.:— bring safe, escape (safe), heal, make perfectly whole, save.

 

These five words say a lot,

yet they still leave a lot unsaid!

 

Let's consider first what they do say!
[/b]


 

Deliverance

Compare Acts 2:21 & Romans 10:13 with Joel 2:32. Both Peter And Paul quoted this Prophesy from Joel, yet we see differences in the translations from Hebrew to English, and from Greek to English!


 

4422. malat, maw-lat’; a prim. root; prop. to be smooth, i.e. (by impl.) to escape (as if by slipperiness); caus. to release or rescue; spec. to bring forth young, emit sparks:— deliver (self), escape, lay, leap out, let alone, let go, preserve, save, × speedily, × surely.


 

As we recognize that both Peter, and Paul quoted the same verse from Joel, we can Super-Refine the "Intent" of the of the word "Saved" at least as it is used in the Context of those passages cited!


 

By eliminating all of the Hebrew and Greek Definitions, which are not shared jointly, we can safely surmise that the Primary Intent of the word "saved," as it is used in the context of those specific passages is limited to Deliverance, Escape, Rescue, or being Preserved! However, this does not negate the other alternative definitions of Salvation!


 

As we consider the concept of deliverance, we can use the example of the delivery boy who delivers a Pizza from the store, to our home! It is easy enough to visualize the two phases of Deliverance! What we are delivered from, and what we are delivered unto!


 

Colossians 1:13

Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness,

and hath translated us

into the kingdom of his dear Son:
[/b][/size][/size]
 

This application of the word delivered is not the same as any of the five words that are translated as the various forms of save. This application is specifically limited to Escape, or Rescue, as it's interpretation of delivered! This application of delivered is synonymous with some, but not all of the meanings of Save! As we consider the two phases of Deliverance, we first must realize where we have escaped, or been rescued from, and then where we have been delivered or translated unto!

 

As we look at the example set by the Nation of Israel, God used Moses to deliver Israel's descendants out of Egyptian Bondage! Once they had crossed through the Red Sea, they were safe, they were free, they were no longer slaves to the Egyptians! Sadly, with the exception of Joshua and Caleb, that entire generation perished in the wilderness, because of their unbelief! They would not enter into their Promised Land when given the opportunity! As Moses delivered them out of Egypt, it was Joshua who delivered the Next Generation into the Promised Land!

 

It is interesting to note that Jesus and Joshua shared the same Hebrew Name!

That Name is Yeshu'a!


 

Much of the Church is like Israel in the Wilderness, they have been delivered out of the Power of Satanic Bondage, but they have not yet entered into their Promised Land! Just because we are no longer under the taskmaster's whip, and are partakers of the Heavenly Manna, is no reason to be lulled into a false sense of security!


 

We may have taken a step in the right direction, but until we cross over Jordan, we will not inherit the Kingdom of God, which is our Promised Land!


 

( Author's note, Crossing over Jordan in not a reference to going to Heaven when we are Graveyard Dead, rather it is a reference to entering into a New Dimension of Spiritual Living, as we go beyond Deliverance, and step into the realm of the New Birth)!


 

Within some Churches today, the term deliverance is equated with Exorcism, which is the casting out of evil or unclean spirits! As Jesus drove the Merchants and Moneychangers from the Temple, even so, the Temples of our Bodies must be cleansed from every Satanic influence! The cleansing of our body, soul, and spirit are an essential part of Deliverance, but the process is far from complete!


 

Jesus taught that the unclean spirit, when it is cast out, will walk through dry places seeking rest! When it finds no rest elsewhere, it will return to whoever it came out of, and finding the house all cleansed and decorated, it will reenter, and bring several even worse than itself! In this manner, the latter end is worse than the beginning! Anytime a vacuum is created, something will seek to fill up that Vacuum! In order to prevent the reentry of the evil spirits, it is necessary to fill up that Void!

 

To fill that void, we need the Laws of God written on the Tables of our Heart, His Word hidden in our Hearts, and His Spirit seated upon the Mercy Seat, which is beyond the Veil, within the Realm of our Innermost Being!

Any time the devils come knocking,

Let the Spirit of Christ answer the Door!

[/b]

 

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Hugh-MANN
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« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2012, 02:02:00 AM »

Healing

In addition to being our Deliverer, Jesus is also our Healer! Jesus did a Total Work! Jesus did a finished Work! Prior to going to the Cross, Jesus was scourged with a Cat of Nine Tails! This was nine whips on one handle. Woven into each of the nine leather lashes were bits of broken bone, and jagged metal! Each of these lashes had a lead weight woven into it's tip, and when it struck, it was traveling at near supersonic speeds! When it struck, it would literally peel the hide off of a man! The customary scourging was 39 strokes! This was the equivalent of 351 strokes with a single whip!


1 Peter 2:24

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree,

that we, being dead to sins,

should live unto righteousness:

by whose stripes ye were healed.

 

As with our previous discussion on deliverance, this word for healing is not one of the five root words that are translated as saved, but again it is synonymous with some, but not all of the meanings of Save! This provision for our Healing was prophesied hundreds of years before it became a reality!


Isaiah 53:5

"... and with his stripes we are healed."


 

Sickness and Death entered into this world as a by-product of Sin! On the Cross, Jesus became a "Garbage Can" upon whom all of the sins of the Human Race was dumped! Jesus did more than just bare all of our sins, He took care of all of the by-products of sin at the same time! This included all of the Shame and Degradation, all of the Sickness and Disease, and all of the Cares of this life as well! Man is body, soul, and spirit, and Jesus made total provisions for the total person!

 

In many instances,

a spiritual, or psychological condition

will manifest itself as a physical affliction!

 

Just like dandelions, you can cut the flowers forever, but until you dig out the root, the flowers will keep coming back! For many physical afflictions, an inner healing is necessary first!

 


Being made Whole in body, soul, and spirit

is part of out Born Again Birthright!


 

Jesus paid the price for all of our physical afflictions, as well for our sins! If we do not claim the fullness of our inheritance, it is not his fault, but ours!

 

Health

In addition to making provision for our Healings, God has given us his Laws as a way to stay healthy! The Mosaic Law spells out in detail those animals that were considered to be unclean, and forbidden for consumption. Whether or not, we as Christians, are bound to observe a Kosher Diet, or whether or not we are Spiritually defiled by eating any of these unclean foods is not the issue, rather it becomes a matter of exercising good judgement and common sense to avoid foods that are high in cholesterol, or animals that are scavengers, or carrion eaters!


 

Preserved

Another concept included in the term Salvation is that of being Preserved. A pickle is a preserved cucumber. The pickle will last indefinitely, while the Cucumber will begin to perish shortly after it is removed from the vine!


 

Born Again?

 

One of the most common errors in the Church

is to equate the term Salvation

with being Born Again!

 

Salvation is an essential prelude to that experience, but it is improper to use the two terms interchangeably! You may be Delivered, Healed, Rescued, Preserved, or made Whole, without experiencing the events we call: Conversion, Transformation, Regeneration, or the Renewal of our Minds! Within the Church there are a multitude of empty vessels that have been cleansed, repaired, and made ready for use, but they are still empty vessels! They will be of little use to God until they become filled with His Spirit!

 

Conclusion

In the final analysis it is important to remember that God loves all of us! He wants each of us to rise to our highest potential, and claim the fullness of our Holy Heritage! As we interact with one another, it is important not to condemn others because they have not yet attained unto the same level of Spiritual Maturity, and understanding, as we have! The flip side of this is that we should not disregard the possibility that others have risen to a higher level than we have, and are operating in Spiritual Realms that we know little, or nothing about!


 

It would be wrong to condemn a child, simply for being a child, however, children are expected to eventually grow up! If a person has reached an age of physical maturity, but is still wearing diapers, and speaking gibberish, would be a sure indication that something is wrong!

 


Spiritual Maturity is not measured by how long ago a person made their Profession of Faith, but rather by how much of God’s Word they have assimilated, and begun to act upon! It would be wrong for a child to desire to remain a child all of it’s days! It would be equally wrong for those who are have been placed in leadership positions to hinder the Spiritual Growth and development of those people over whose souls they are charged to give watch!

 


It would be equally wrong

to recognize such a situation

and remain silent about it!


 

Each of us should reach out our hand in Love, to assist others in their Spiritual Growth and Maturity! If by chance, someone reaches out their hand to us, we should have the courtesy to investigate the situation, and determine for ourselves,


"Is the Grass really Greener,

on the other side of the fence?"


 

As I have mentioned earlier,

The Lord did not call me

to Shut Up the Kingdom of God to any man!

 

Rather,

He sent me to open those Gates

as wide as possible,

so that whosoever will,

may enter in!

Conclusion

We have previously discussed that the Name of Jesus in the Hebrew is Yeshu'a, which translates directly into English as Joshua! The Literal interpretation of this name means, The Lord My Savior, or the Salvation of God!


 

Matthew 1:21

And she shall bring forth a son,

and thou shalt call his name JESUS:

for he shall save his people from their sins.


 

Jesus is very properly named! For indeed he delivers, or rescues us from our sins! He is our way of escape! Even though we have "Super Refined" the term Salvation to that of Deliverance, we must not lose sight of the other meanings of the word in the Greek Language!


 

Jesus is our Savior, Deliverer, Rescuer, Preserver, Healer, and the One who makes us Whole! Moreover, there are many other words in the Greek Language, that are synonymous with these alternate definitions, and are used in the Scriptures that positively identify Jesus in each of these roles!


 

The Bottom Line,

"When you say Jesus,

you have said it all!"


 

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nChrist
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« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2012, 05:58:00 AM »

John 3:3-7 KJV  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.  4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?  5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.  6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1 Peter 1:18-23 KJV  Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;  19  But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:  20  Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,  21  Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.  22  Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:  23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


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Hugh-MANN
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« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2012, 03:07:19 AM »

In reply # 2,  I made the following comments,


Born Again?



One of the most common errors in the Church

is to equate the term Salvation

with being Born Again! [/b]
[/color]
 


Salvation is an essential prelude to that experience, but it is improper to use the two terms interchangeably! You may be Delivered, Healed, Rescued, Preserved, or made Whole, without experiencing the events we call: Conversion, Transformation, Regeneration, or the Renewal of our Minds! Within the Church there are a multitude of empty vessels that have been cleansed, repaired, and made ready for use, but they are still empty vessels! They will be of little use to God until they become filled with His Spirit!





In reply #3  nChrist responds,





 Re: Acts 2:38 SALVATION
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2012, 05:58:00 AM »   



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John 3:3-7 KJV  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.  4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?  5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.  6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1 Peter 1:18-23 KJV  Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;  19  But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:  20  Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,  21  Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.  22  Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:  23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


So thank you Brother Tom for your response,



So, WHAT"S YOUR POINT?  What are you really trying to say?



The "BALL" is in your Court!



Please Respond?



Your Brother in Christ



Hugh MANN





James 1:18 (King James Version)


Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.




1 Peter 1:3-5 (King James Version)


Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

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« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2012, 03:34:32 AM »

Salvation and being Born Again are one and the same thing. There is no Salvation without being Born Again, and being Born Again is Salvation. God's Word makes this abundantly clear and it is the authority. The opinions of men mean nothing unless they agree with God's Word. So, read the portions of Scripture I gave you.
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« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2012, 09:02:35 AM »

Indeed Salvation is not complete, finished, without being born again, being made whole, the renewing of the spirit, regeneration. For without this a person still cannot enter heaven, hence no Salvation.


Tit 3:5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 09:15:27 AM by Soldier4Christ » Logged

Joh 9:4  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Hugh-MANN
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« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2012, 05:55:10 PM »

My Dear Brother nChrist,

 

Thank you for your prompt response!  27 minutes, and at 03:34 in the morning no less! (Don't you ever sleep)?

 

Anyway, it seems that we have a genuine DIFFERENCE OF OPINION!  However we do agree on one thing!

 

 The Scriptures are the FINAL AUTHORITY, and the opinions of men mean nothing unless they agree with God's Word.  (I guess that is 2 things)!

 

 As you suggested, I re-read both passages you sent in 17 different translations, and also in 4 different languages, (English, Greek. Spanish, Latin), but in none of these could I find it spelled out verbatim,

 
Salvation and being Born Again are one and the same thing.

There is no Salvation without being Born Again,

and being Born Again is Salvation.
[/color]
 

So let's expand the Context

 

 Chapter 3


Christ Teaches Nicodemus The Necessity Of Regeneration


  John 3:1-21 (King James Version)


There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


COMMENTARY


vv1-2

Nicodemus comes to Jesus by night and says to him,

 

 Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God:


for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

 

We must remember that Jesus was a Prophet and was capable of perceiving the thoughts of others!  What Nicodemus is thinking is screaming louder than than what he is saying!

 

How is it that you can do these miracles?

 

What must I do,

so that I can do them too?
[/color]
 

vv-3

 

Jesus was never one to mince His Words, so he answers what Nicodemus is thinking, rather than what he is saying!

 

 
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[/color]

 

There are some who try to interpret this as "Born from Above" but as we look at Nicodemus' response in vv-4 the only possible interpretation must be "BORN AGAIN!"  

 

vv5-9

Here we are introduced to the term "BORN OF THE SPIRIT"  which Jesus uses synonymously with "BORN AGAIN!"

 

It is not until vv 15-18 that the conversation shifts to Salvation and Eternal Life!

 




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« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2012, 06:02:25 PM »

Let's move on,



 1 Peter 1:18-23 KJV  Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;  19  But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:  20  Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,  21  Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.  22  Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:  23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


Again there is a greater context

 

1 Peter 1:1-25 (King James Version)

 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. 13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

In a different thread, you mentioned being a father, and a grandfather, so obviously you understand that a child must be CONCEIVED before it can ever be BORN!  For humans, there is a normal 9 month gestation period!  For those who are Conceived of the Spirit, the gestation period could be almost instantaneously, or it could be a very long time!


 

In Matthew 13:1-23 , Mark 4:1-20 , Luke 8:5-20  Jesus teaches the Parable of the Sower and illustrates how different results occur because of the different types of SOIL into which the seed is planted!

 

Notice 1 Peter 1:5 



5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time



compare,





Romans 8:16-25 (King James Version)


The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:



17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.




I really don't want to get side tracked, but it is obvious that there is a SALVATION YET TO COME, ( to wit, the redemption of our body)!  Regardless of how SAFE and SECURE that we think we might be,  the bottom line is that,

NOBODY IS WALKING
ON STREETS OF GOLD
JUST YET!
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Brother Hugh

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« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2012, 06:15:28 PM »

You disagree with God's Word - not just me. Being Born Again IS Salvation, and Salvation IS being Born Again.
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« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2012, 07:49:28 PM »

Hugh,

According to your SEMANTICS game, everyone is lost and will remain lost until they receive their glorified body.

Thankfully, that's not what the Word of God says. That would be ignoring a large portion of the Holy Bible. A truly Born Again Christian is ALREADY a member of the BODY OF CHRIST and has the Holy Spirit of God living in their hearts. If I die tonight, it's absent from the body and present with the LORD.

If we use your logic, there are no Saved people yet. I could quote a great many portions of Scripture, but I'll only post one. These are basics, not the deeper things of the Word.

Ephesians 2:1-10 KJV  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;  2  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:  3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.  4  But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,  5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)  6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:  7  That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.  8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:  9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.  10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
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« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2012, 10:04:56 PM »

Brother Tom,

Show Me!  Teach Me!  Give me Scripture that says, Being Born Again IS Salvation, and Salvation IS being Born Again.


From American Heritage Dictionary!


sal·va·tion (s²l-v³“sh…n) n. 1.a. Preservation or deliverance from destruction, difficulty, or evil. b. A source, means, or cause of such preservation or deliverance. 2. Theology. a. Deliverance from the power or penalty of sin; redemption. b. The agent or means that brings about such deliverance. 3. Christian Science. The realization and demonstration of Life, Truth, and Love as supreme over all, carrying with it the destruction of the illusions of sin, sickness, and death. --sal·va“tion·al adj.

re·born (r¶-bôrn“) adj. Emotionally or spiritually revived or regenerated.

Thank you for your new response!

1. I don't play Semantics

everyone is lost and will remain lost until they receive their glorified body.

I did not say this, neither do I believe it!

2.  A truly Born Again Christian is ALREADY a member of the BODY OF CHRIST and has the Holy Spirit of God living in their hearts. 

Thank You Very Much!  I couldn't have said it better!

However, for the sake of others following this thread, please explain what you mean by:

A truly Born Again Christian  How does this differ from a CINO (Christian in Name Only)  or perhaps the rank and file membership of most local congregations?

 please explain how the  truly Born Again Christian becomes a member of the BODY OF CHRIST?

please explain how the Holy Spirit comes to live within the heart of the truly Born Again Christian!

Feel free to share your own testimony!



3.  If I die tonight, it's absent from the body and present with the LORD.

The Jury is still out on that one???????


Man exists as a TRICHOTOMY of spirit, soul, and body!  1 Thes 5:23

At physical death the body decomposes back into the dust from which it was formed, and the spirit returns to it's father.  Heb 12 :9

but there are some who subscribe to Soul Sleep believing that the soul is laid to rest until such time as it is reunited with it's spirit in it's glorified resurrection body!

I don't feel that this is worth arguing about, for it only diverts us from more important things!

Ephesians 2:1-10  Wonderful passage of Scripture


8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:  9  Not of works, lest any man should boast. 


Please note what this passage does not say!


This passage does not say, we are saved by Grace!

This passage does say, For by grace are ye saved.

Grace explains WHY?  It does not explain WHO, or HOW!

We are saved by a Savior,
and His Name is
The LORD JESUS CHRIST!

How are we SAVED?

His SHED BLOOD IS THE PURCHASE PRICE OF OUR REDEMPTION!

His SHED BLOOD also provides the ATONEMENT FOR OUR SINS!

1 John 1:5-10 (King James Version)
1 John 1:5 (King James Version) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I am starting to digress...........

More to come later,

Have a Nice Day

Brother Hugh








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« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2012, 11:10:31 PM »

Save

Mt:1:21: And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.


Mt:8:25: And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.

This is obviously a reference to physical rescue!


Mt:11:27: All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. (This is that other word that is translated as save, but whose meaning is except, or only!)


Mt:13:57: And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. (This is that other word that is translated as save, but whose meaning is except, or only!)


Mt:14:30: But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.

This is obviously a reference to physical rescue!



Mt:16:25: For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.


Mt:17:8: And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. (This is that other word that is translated as save, but whose meaning is except, or only!)


Mt:18:11: For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.


Mt:19:11: But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

(This is that other word that is translated as save, but whose meaning is except, or only!)


Mt:27:40: And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

physical rescue


Mt:27:49: The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.

physical rescue


Mk:3:4: And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.


Mk:5:37: And he suffered no man to follow him, save Peter, and James, and John the brother of James.(This is that other word that is translated as save, but whose meaning is except, or only!)


Mk:6:5: And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. (This is that other word that is translated as save, but whose meaning is except, or only!)


Mk:6:8: And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse: (This is that other word that is translated as save, but whose meaning is except, or only!)


Mk:8:35: For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.


Mk:9:8: And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves. (This is that other word that is translated as save, but whose meaning is except, or only!)


Mk:15:30: Save thyself, and come down from the cross.

physical rescue

Lk:4:26: But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. (This is that other word that is translated as save, but whose meaning is except, or only!)


Lk:6:9: Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it?


Lk:8:51: And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden. (This is that other word that is translated as save, but whose meaning is except, or only!)


Lk:9:24: For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.


Lk:9:56: For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.


Lk:17:18: There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger. (This is that other word that is translated as save, but whose meaning is except, or only!)


Lk:17:33: Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.


Lk:18:19: And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

(This is that other word that is translated as save, but whose meaning is except, or only!)


Lk:19:10: For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.


Lk:23:37: And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.

physical rescue



 

 
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« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2012, 11:20:50 PM »

Lk:23:39: And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

physical rescue

Jn:6:22: The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples were gone away alone; (This is that other word that is translated as save, but whose meaning is except, or only!)


 

Jn:6:46: Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

(This is that other word that is translated as save, but whose meaning is except, or only!)


Jn:12:27: Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.


Jn:12:47: And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.


Jn:13:10: Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. (This is that other word that is translated as save, but whose meaning is except, or only!)


Acts:2:40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.


Acts:20:23: Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. (This is that other word that is translated as save, but whose meaning is except, or only!)


Acts:21:25: As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. (This is that other word that is translated as save, but whose meaning is except, or only!)


Acts:27:43: But the centurion, willing to save Paul, kept them from their purpose; and commanded that they which could swim should cast themselves first into the sea, and get to land:


Rom:11:14: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.


1Cor:1:21: For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


1Cor:2:2: For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

(This is that other word that is translated as save, but whose meaning is except, or only!)


1Cor:2:11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. (This is that other word that is translated as save, but whose meaning is except, or only!)


1Cor:7:16: For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?


1Cor:9:22: To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.


2Cor:11:24: Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. (This is that other word that is translated as save, but whose meaning is except, or only!)


Gal:1:19: But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. (This is that other word that is translated as save, but whose meaning is except, or only!)


Gal:6:14: But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. (This is that other word that is translated as save, but whose meaning is except, or only!)


1Tm:1:15: This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.


1Tm:4:16: Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.


Heb:5:7: Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;


Heb:7:25: Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.


Jms:1:21: Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.


Jms:2:14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?


Jms:4:12: There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?


Jms:5:15: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

heal

Jms:5:20: Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.


1Pt:3:21: The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


Jude:1:23: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Saved


Mt:10:22: And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.


Mt:19:25: When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?


Mt:24:13: But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


Mt:24:22: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Mt:27:42: He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.


Mk:10:26: And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?


Mk:13:13: And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


Mk:13:20: And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.


Mk:15:31: Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.


Mk:16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


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« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2012, 11:26:16 PM »

Lk:1:71: That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;


Lk:7:50: And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace. (This is better rendered as healed, or made whole!) (We are saved by Grace, and Justified by Faith!)


Lk:8:12: Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.


Lk:13:23: Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,


Lk:18:26: And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?


Lk:18:42: And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee. (This is better rendered as healed, or made whole!) (We are saved by Grace, and Justified by Faith!)
 

Lk:23:35: And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.


Jn:3:17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


Jn:5:34: But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.


Jn:10:9: I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.


Acts:2:21: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Acts:2:47: Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


Acts:4:12: Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

This is true with respect to DELIVERANCE, but considering the context it is equally true of HEALING



Acts:11:14: Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.


Acts:15:1: And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.


Acts:15:11: But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.


Acts:16:30: And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?


Acts:16:31: And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.


 

Commentary,

As a Jailer, this man was held personally responsible for his prisoners, if they escaped, his life was forfeit, moreover, the life of his family was forfeit as well! There had just been a great earthquake, and the jailer assumed that as the walls came crashing down, that his prisoners would escape! The Jailer had been at the point of suicide, and asked what he must do to be delivered from his present circumstances! Paul told him to trust in the Lord, and he would be delivered from his present situation, and his family as well!


We must be careful not to read anything into this verse that is not there! The New Birth is an individual experience, just because one family member becomes Born of the Spirit, does not mean that every member of that family becomes Born of the Spirit! Later as this jailer took Paul and Silas to his house and ministered to their stripes, then Paul and Silas ministered to the Spiritual Needs of this man and his family, and then Baptized all of them!

 


Acts:27:20: And when neither sun nor stars in many days appeared, and no small tempest lay on us, all hope that we should be saved was then taken away.  physical rescue


Acts:27:31: Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved. physical rescue


Rom:5:9: Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.


Rom:5:10: For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Rom:8:24: For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?


Rom:9:27: Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:


Rom:10:1: Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.



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