The "GRACE" Movement (Hot Potato!)

[nChrist]

GOOD NEWS!

1:  Romans 3:10 NASB  as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

2:  Romans 3:23  NASB  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

3:  Romans 5:12  NASB  Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

4:  Romans 6:23  NASB  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

5:  Romans 1:18  NASB  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

6:  Romans 3:20  NASB  because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

7:  Romans 3:27  NASB  Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

8:  Romans 5:8-9  NASB  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

9:  Romans 2:4  NASB  Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

10:  Romans 3:22  NASB  even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

11:  Romans 3:28  NASB  For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

12:  Romans 10:9  NASB  that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

13:  Romans 4:21  NASB  and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

14:  Romans 4:24 NASB  but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,

15:  Romans 5:1  NASB  Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

16:  Romans 10:10  NASB  for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

17:  Romans 10:13  NASB  for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT!, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord and Saviour forever!

[dan p]

Thanks for your reply,. I had the pleasure of meeting Paul Sadler in Calif , at funeral of Pastor Bob Hanna, and a very good talk with him.

[nChrist]

Thanks for your reply,. I had the pleasure of meeting Paul Sadler in Calif , at funeral of Pastor Bob Hanna, and a very good talk with him.

Hello Dan P,

You're most welcome. I recognize all of the names, and many of the older Pastors are friends of my family. Our little church has also been using various materials from the Berean Bible Society for over 60 years. In fact, the same is true for several churches that are or have been pastored by members of my family. The Berean Bible Society is definitely a Godly organization serving the LORD.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 1:18-23 NASB I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

[BillyShope]

Yes, church labels can be misleading, but, they can also serve as a convenient shortcut. For instance, if I say that my church background is mainly GARBC (which it is), you know immediately that Romans 16:17 was one of the first verses I memorized. Some labels are deliberately formed to confuse and denigrate. For instance, I strongly suspect that the term "universal reconciliation" originated in the Reformed camp, since reconciliation is obviously "universal" (Second Corinthians 5:19), though certainly not in the sense by which the term "universal reconciliation" is applied. And, if there's a form of dispensationalism which doesn't exactly agree with yours, you can always throw in a derogatory adjective.

In recent years, I became discouraged (not exactly the right word, but "upset" seems too strong) with the confusion, among independent Baptist churches, of the crosswork, and its universal application, with God's work of justification, as it is applied to the individual through faith. I visited a Grace Movement church and was immediately forced to read again...carefully, this time...a number of passages which hadn't "sunk in." Specifically, I gained a fresh understanding of Paul's unique ministry "which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men" (Ephesians 3:5).

If there were, at the beginning of this dispensation, 2 different Gospels (Galatians 2:7), what has happened to one of them? And, since things that are different are not the same, how can it be expected that a message delivered before this dispensation is acceptable today. Supposing that Nicodemus left that meeting "born again," he would have yet been under the Law. After telling Nicodemus that he must be born again, our Lord went on to say "salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22).

At that time, Jews received eternal life (were justified) as they identified themselves with the prophetic plan for the nation of Israel, culminating in the earthly reign of the Messiah. Yes, many recognized, after the resurrection, "...that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures and that He was buried and that He rose again, according to the Scriptures." (First Corinthians 15:3,4). Yes, this had been prophesied. But, Paul was the one granted the privilege to reveal the Gospel for this dispensation. Now, it is no longer necessary to be born a Jew or become a Jewish proselyte. There is now neither Jew nor Greek. Eternal life is now available to all through faith in the finished crosswork. That is a message which can not be found in any of the "Four Gospels."

We now have only one Gospel and it is not the Gospel of the circumcision. This would mean that the church of this dispensation could not have begun in Acts 2, for Peter was still preaching the Kingdom Gospel. Indeed, it could not begin until Acts 9, when Paul was converted.

Yes, this means I'm no longer a Baptist, for there is but one baptism in this dispensation, and it has nothing to do with water.

If there is a weakness in the Grace Movement, it's found in the almost total disregard of world events. They seem to connect any interest in politics or the like as a desire to return to the Law and the associated prophecy. In other words, the eschatological teaching is very weak.   

[nChrist]

Hello BillyShope,

I see this is your first post, so WELCOME!

I sincerely hope that you enjoy Christians Unite. I look forward to having fellowship with you. I've already stated my feelings about tags, labels, and denominations, so I will give thanks when the Body of Christ will leave all of that behind. Those who are absent from the body and present with the Lord already have.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[prism]

The Grace Movement is also called Free Grace .
They  start with this view  that you can receive Christ as your Savior and  not as Lord ,they then interpret the whole New Testament in that light.
I'm going to list some of the type of teaching they teach,and I believe with just a little study the false teaching can be rebuked.
1] Repentance is never included as part of the Gospel message.
2]One may receive Christ as Savior, yet reject Him as Lord.That is ,one may receive Christ by faith alone(intellectual assent is the definition some of them affirm to ),yet do so with on going rebellion--accepting the gift while shaking a fist at the giver.God does not necessarily change the heart when he saves someone.
3]True Christians will not necessarily evidence their faith by works(fruit) .In fact a true Christian may never show any evidence of a new birth.
4] True Christians will not necessarily persevere  in the faith.In fact a true Christian may receive Jesus as Savior ,later become intellectually unconvinced of the Gospel ,denounce Christ and become an atheist ;however ,because of that decision made at one time,he is still considered saved.
5]Christians will be divided into to groups at the judgement seat, the overcoming Christians will be allowed to reign with Christ in the millennial kingdom,they are the heirs.the unfaithful,carnal believers however will get into the kingdom but will not reign with Christ .they will be barred from the banquet.


As can be seen this is a teaching that is false and has the potential to lead some to hell .

Hope this is usefull

  Looking at Dan P's response (the mid-Acts view) and the definition above, I think we have two totally different discussions.

[nChrist]

  Looking at Dan P's response (the mid-Acts view) and the definition above, I think we have two totally different discussions.

If you go to the first of the thread, there might be 3 or more discussions in this thread. I, personally, don't even care to keep up with all of the new tags and labels. Man has made a confusing mess out of the plain and simple "Gospel of The Grace of God". There's even disagreement in what the phrase means in quotes in the previous sentence. I'm sure that the devil has something to do with all of the confusion. I'll give thanks that the most powerful Gospel message is still plain and simple, just like it was almost 2,000 years ago.

1 Corinthians 2:1-5 KJV  1  And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.  2  For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.  3  And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.  4  And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:  5  That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

[Soldier4Christ]

If you go to the first of the thread, there might be 3 or more discussions in this thread. I, personally, don't even care to keep up with all of the new tags and labels. Man has made a confusing mess out of the plain and simple "Gospel of The Grace of God". There's even disagreement in what the phrase means in quotes in the previous sentence. I'm sure that the devil has something to do with all of the confusion. I'll give thanks that the most powerful Gospel message is still plain and simple, just like it was almost 2,000 years ago.

1 Corinthians 2:1-5 KJV  1  And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.  2  For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.  3  And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.  4  And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:  5  That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Amen!

[prism]

If you go to the first of the thread, there might be 3 or more discussions in this thread. I, personally, don't even care to keep up with all of the new tags and labels. Man has made a confusing mess out of the plain and simple "Gospel of The Grace of God". There's even disagreement in what the phrase means in quotes in the previous sentence. I'm sure that the devil has something to do with all of the confusion. I'll give thanks that the most powerful Gospel message is still plain and simple, just like it was almost 2,000 years ago.

1 Corinthians 2:1-5 KJV  1  And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.  2  For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.  3  And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.  4  And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:  5  That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Still, we are to contend for the faith (body of truth) once delivered to the saints and not go 'Emergent', tags or no tags.

[dan p]

  Looking at Dan P's response (the mid-Acts view) and the definition above, I think we have two totally different discussions.

 Hi prism , and I have been gone for a very long time and have just recently returned with many different posts , and just happened to see you repond .

 I do have one on Repentance .

 And I am one on many who started out reading C R Stams books and have all of his books and also of Charles Baker .

 I know that he C R Stam is Acts 9 but he does not explain why he is Acts 9 .

 Nor does he have a good explanation of the 12 in or 12 out position and believes that the Body of Christ is the  " bride of Christ " and seem confused about Rom 11 , and we all have our blind spots .

 We have many Dispensationalist who also believe that Saul was saved under the Kingdom Program , which is an Acts 28 position  and have debated some , and they can never come up with any verse to prove that Illusion .

 If we have Paul in front of us to and to ask Paul ,  Paul where did the Body of Christ begin ,  would he say ,  '  MID-ACTS  " ,  I do not think so , but would points u8s to Rom 1:1 or  1  Tim 1: 15and 16  or to 1  Cor 15:8  which also refutes the 12 in position .

 To me , there is no such thing as Mid-Acts and I have talked to Acts 13 and there do not have any answers either .  dan p

[prism]

Dan,
 I think Stam gives a fine defense of his Acts 9 position in his  Acts Dispensationally Considered Vol.2 pgs 173-180 under the heading, "When  did the present dispensation begin". Look it up.

[dan p]

Dan,
 I think Stam gives a fine defense of his Acts 9 position in his  Acts Dispensationally Considered Vol.2 pgs 173-180 under the heading, "When  did the present dispensation begin". Look it up.

 Hi prism , and I am reading vol 2 , and on page 173 , Stam writes , " But do the Scriptures say , in so many words , exactly when it began ?

 Stam says this in the following ,  "  No , not in so many words .   His words  ( Stam's  ) .

 Rom 1:1 is a proof text that it began in Acts 9:6 with the salvation of  Saul/Paul .

 In Rom 1:1 the Greek APHORIZO  which is translated by 3 English words .

 #1 , Translated by BOUNDARIES .
 #2 , Translated by SEPARATED .
 #3 , Translated by LIMITED .

 This Greek word i9s in the Greek  Perfect Tense , which means Past  Action  with continuing results .

 Here is and example .

 When Christ said in John 19:30  ,  "  IT IS  FINISHED  "  it is also in the Greek perfect tense .

 #1 , the Past Action   (  Jesus , death on the cross , and Jesus only will die  ONCE  )   and the Continuing Results are that Jesys keeps on saving people after his death .

 #2 ,  Here is another example ; If you were saved in 1940 , which is Past Action .

 And from then on , you are always in the Present ,  NOT the past and NOT in the Future ,   ALWAYS IN THE  PRESENT  and that is the Perfect Tense .

 #3 , That means that Paul in Rom 1:1 was  LIMITED  to only preach the Gospel of God and also means Paul could never again be a Pharisee or ever Baptize or ever again be a Law keeper .

 #4 , Even Stam , in page 179 believes that Paul was Baptized , but does not say if it was water or dry and just says that Paul was Baptized 3 days later , what do you say

 I cut my teeth on Stam's teaching but now  R C Brock  is  way ahead of Stam and Stam stayed many times in Brock's home in St  Petersburgh ,FLA .

[prism]

It's in the perfect passive which means God had done the action. Don't you think that often a completed action from God's side  has it's outworking (within time) . For example our sanctification is a completed action by God and yet in time it has it's out workings amongst ourselves. Paul was separated unto the Gospel at a particular point and yet it is in the 'continual results' that we see a transition into this present dispensation.
 Greek is fine with the skeletal work but sooner or later flesh and bones need to be added which comes from context and Scripture interpreting Scripture. It just seems to be an awkward jump to conclude from Rom 1:1 that (Scripture says) this present dispensation 'exactly' began at so in so or such and such.
 I believe Stam's statement on pg.176 is a fair one, and why torture his position any further?...
""We believe that Paul's conversion and call to apostleship marks the beginning of the new dispensation and of the Body of Christ."

[nChrist]

It's my firm opinion that many people aren't ready for ancient languages or academic matters in dispute. This would especially be true for non-salvation issues. There should first be a concentration on rightly dividing the Word of Truth in English. Contending over academic matters in dispute is a waste of time. I would emphasize this is especially true when there are more basic truths that are misunderstood and neglected. Greek and Hebrew are multi-faceted, so they are nothing to jump into without the high probability of confusion and misapplication. If one doesn't understand the basics, them jumping into the advanced is doing themselves a disservice.

[dan p]

It's in the perfect passive which means God had done the action. Don't you think that often a completed action from God's side  has it's outworking (within time) . For example our sanctification is a completed action by God and yet in time it has it's out workings amongst ourselves. Paul was separated unto the Gospel at a particular point and yet it is in the 'continual results' that we see a transition into this present dispensation.
 Greek is fine with the skeletal work but sooner or later flesh and bones need to be added which comes from context and Scripture interpreting Scripture. It just seems to be an awkward jump to conclude from Rom 1:1 that (Scripture says) this present dispensation 'exactly' began at so in so or such and such.
 I believe Stam's statement on pg.176 is a fair one, and why torture his position any further?...
""We believe that Paul's conversion and call to apostleship marks the beginning of the new dispensation and of the Body of Christ."

 Hi prism , and I am not trying to say that C R Stam is a bad bible teacher and even Stam used Greek words in his exposition and in his teaching .

 The verb tense is mostly avoided and as I have said , that I learned the Grace Message from Stam .  Most have never heard of R C  Brock and yet Stam and Brock were good friends and Stam stayed in Brock's home on many occasions and were good friends and my only regret is , that I did never meet Stam face to face .

 Have you heard of Les Feldick , another good Dispensationalist , who is mostly seen back East on TV , and has also spoken at Grace Bible College .

 The fact remains , that , not all that say they are Dispensationalist agree , do they ??

 The fact also remains that Rom 1:1 is true and can be  VERIFIED .

 Remember , that translations are  NOT  INSPIRED  and there no thing  such as   DOUBLE  INSPIRATION .  DAN P