Eternal Security.

[Tawhano]

In the Old Testament and before Christ was crucified and risen to the Father, we see God giving the Holy Spirit to those he was using at the time to do whatever miraculous thing He was working for His people. The promise of the Holy Spirit wasn’t made until Jesus was crucified and ascended into Heaven.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Acts 2:16-17
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Ephesians 1
13   In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14   Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

earnest  = arrhabon

1) an earnest
a) money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid


Taken from root word arabown:
1)   pledge, security

The Holy Spirit being the proof of purchase, a down payment to secure the full purchase. This is the crux of the debate here. Can one lose their salvation or is it a done deal.

[Early57]

Why do people want to make sure that people live in fear?

Salvation is a gift.  No where in the word does it say that God will take a gift (Salvation) from you.

Well lets look to the word it's self.

Romans 11

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,



About the truth thing, and someone deciding what is the truth, and once they decide that they have the truth, even if they may not have the truth, they still believe that they are speaking truth, for instance, like anyone on this forum may believe that the way they see it is the truth, but because they have been blinded from the truth, thay may just be speaking what they perceive as the truth and then trying to convince others of their truth that is not truth at all, but they do not know it is not truth.  You know this could be happening to you and if you are blinded, but you think you see, than you would not be aware of this blindness and would think that others are the blind ones instead of yourself.  what a ditch to have fallen into by being lead by a blind man.

[Ambassador4Christ]

Why do people want to make sure that people live in fear?

Salvation is a gift.  No where in the word does it say that God will take a gift (Salvation) from you.

Well lets look to the word it's self.

Romans 11

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,



About the truth thing, and someone deciding what is the truth, and once they decide that they have the truth, even if they may not have the truth, they still believe that they are speaking truth, for instance, like anyone on this forum may believe that the way they see it is the truth, but because they have been blinded from the truth, thay may just be speaking what they perceive as the truth and then trying to convince others of their truth that is not truth at all, but they do not know it is not truth.  You know this could be happening to you and if you are blinded, but you think you see, than you would not be aware of this blindness and would think that others are the blind ones instead of yourself.  what a ditch to have fallen into by being lead by a blind man.

Early, One more AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN!!!!

[Petro]

Petro said:
The Greek-English interlinear, begins verse 4 this way;  "For [it is] impossible  those once enlightened ............", this is the word that drives the meaning the verse conveys

by Tawhano,
I agree. This was why I used this verse.

Tawhano,

there use to be a gal on this forum, posting under the username of SherBear, you sure do remind me of her; she spoke with great pride of being verbose, and there is nothing wrong with that, butI encouraged her to engage the brain, before verbossing, cause she covered herself by backtracking as you are doing, claiming to believe only what the Word taught, but unable to comprehend the matter,  as I see it, how can anyone believe unless they understand first??  Anyhow your little jig, back and forth looks like a dance but the fact is you're stumbling around at the Word.

You say you agree but, really..... you don't..

Petro said:
The other two verses (Heb 6:5-6) bare out, this quite clearly;  in fact the next passage which contains the verses, you have cited (Heb 3:1-15), clearly defines and supports, that ultimately, the man of which Heb 6:4-6 speaks of, is someone who was there partaking of the  afforded privileges (Judas Iscariot was such a man) but because of hardness of heart, walked away, from the truth of His (Holy Spirit's ) teaching,

Tawhano's response
Problem with this rational is that the Holy Spirit was not yet given at that time to be teaching anybody anything. Jesus was doing the teaching at this point.

Well thats interesting, Jesus himself warned against blashpeming against the Holy Spirit, when they blasphemed Him, saying He had an unclean spirit. (Mk 3:29-30), was the Holy Spirit given then, NO, your confusion lies in your understanding as to whom the Holy Spirit is  given to;  

Just cause someone hears Him, doesn't mean He is saved, for what does the scriptures say, but;

Rom 2
11  For there is no respect of persons with God.
12  For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13  (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

And you have heard me say, the law is our schoolmaster who brings us, to Christ.
  (Gal 3:24)

Now, I know you are going to say to yourself at this point, what does the law have to do with this conversation??

Everything, since what you are trying to prove is that these who, are partakers of the Holy Spirit, in your understanding of Heb 6:4-6, lose "partaker" status, when they sin, since sin it, is  transgression of the law (1Jhn 3:4)  which you claim is their salvation..

While what is really established here in these verses, is that they were enlightened concerning the Gospel of Christ, they tasted, but have not become partakers of Christ.
 
These are them, that followed Jesus, ate of the fishes and loaves, and witnessed the miracles he performed saw with their very eyes; yet, they were insulted and rejected Him, when he said to then;  

Jhn 6, (consider the whole passage vs's 47-64)
51  I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Heb 3, sums it all up.

7  Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8  Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9  When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10  Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11  So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12  Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13  But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14  For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15  While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

These my friend never new  Him, but if you could have asked them, they would tell you, yahh, we know God.

And there are many today who claim to know God, but , that is not the issue, the issue is, does God know me??;  This is the question they should ask themselves.

And to those who think they know him, but are not known by Him,  He will say to them in that day


"I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

There are many true Christians, is this age who, think they understand what the scriptures teach, but because they are lazy, they just read commentaries, or heard the preacher say something; they go and get someone elses opinion and (if sounds like something I believe, they reason,) they embrace the teaching, instead of digging into the Word, to see if it's true allowing the Spirit to teach them and confirm the truth, of what they are reading.

Blessings

Petro

[Early57]

Adam, Eve & Satan were all created in perfection, Not Salvation.  To have Salvation you must first need Saving.  Satan who was created in Heaven was with God and had no recourse when he fell.  Adam and Eve on the other hand were not in Heaven/Gods continual presence, therefore when they fell they were eligible for Salvation, Due to the fact that they had only seen God when he came to them in the Garden and unlike Satan when he fell, who had enjoyed the unconfined presence of God, Was forever removed from enjoying Gods presence in the continual state.


So you are in need of correction.

[Early57]

‘How can unbelievers be partakers?’


Well, they taste of the heavenly gift.  they choose not to sit down and have the full 7 course meal.  they think it will spoil their other meals in life.

[psalmistsinger]

It was said of Paul (as he quoted it in Romans) that since he was preaching that Faith apart from the works of the law was sufficient for salvation, then why not sin that grace may abound?  

As in Paul's day I think that is still the fear that some have in our day at the proclaiming of God's grace.

At issue, I think, is that there may be be a misconception about SIN - the nature that Jesus died for, and sins - actions that are wrong.

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." - 2 Corinthians 5:19-21

Sins, wrongful or unlawful deeds, are the symptoms while SIN is the disease from which the symptoms spring.

For example, it's not that Jesus died for the individual act of stealing, but He died to take away the root problem that would cause someone to want to steal in the first place.

He has crucified our "old man" and replaced it with His Nature.

"I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."- Galatians 2:20

Notice what Paul says in Ephesians 4:28:

"Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth."  

Not "let him who stole know that he is lost and undone", but let him who stole quit it because he has put off the old man- He is born again of better stuff! To steal now would be to live against his nature. A man isn’t a thief because he steals; a man steals because he is a thief.

This why Peter says in 2 Peter 2:21:

"For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.  But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."  

Someone who would seek to turn back is either living against their nature (and miserable), or never had their nature changed to begin with– the “dog” returns to its vomit.

I can be comfortable stealing if I’m a thief and it is in my nature, but if I have passed from death unto LIFE, I can never again be the same. I would have been better off keeping the “old man” than being a new one who is trying to live like an old one.

Now if Jesus died for sin then sin is no longer the issue, rather it is BELIEF on Jesus.

People are not condemned because of sin, but because they have not believed on Him.

“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”  John 3:18

When we come to the Lord our sins are forgiven because of the faith that is placed in Christ.

Eternal Security?

There is no other kind.

In His Grace....

[Early57]

It was said of Paul (as he quoted it in Romans) that since he was preaching that Faith apart from the works of the law was sufficient for salvation, then why not sin that grace may abound?  

As in Paul's day I think that is still the fear that some have in our day at the proclaiming of God's grace.

At issue, I think, is that there may be be a misconception about SIN - the nature that Jesus died for, and sins - actions that are wrong.

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." - 2 Corinthians 5:19-21

Sins, wrongful or unlawful deeds, are the symptoms while SIN is the disease from which the symptoms spring.

For example, it's not that Jesus died for the individual act of stealing, but He died to take away the root problem that would cause someone to want to steal in the first place.

He has crucified our "old man" and replaced it with His Nature.

"I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."- Galatians 2:20

Notice what Paul says in Ephesians 4:28:

"Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth."  

Not "let him who stole know that he is lost and undone", but let him who stole quit it because he has put off the old man- He is born again of better stuff! To steal now would be to live against his nature. A man isn’t a thief because he steals; a man steals because he is a thief.

This why Peter says in 2 Peter 2:21:

"For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.  But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."  

Someone who would seek to turn back is either living against their nature (and miserable), or never had their nature changed to begin with– the “dog” returns to its vomit.

I can be comfortable stealing if I’m a thief and it is in my nature, but if I have passed from death unto LIFE, I can never again be the same. I would have been better off keeping the “old man” than being a new one who is trying to live like an old one.

Now if Jesus died for sin then sin is no longer the issue, rather it is BELIEF on Jesus.

People are not condemned because of sin, but because they have not believed on Him.

“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”  John 3:18

When we come to the Lord our sins are forgiven because of the faith that is placed in Christ.

Eternal Security?

There is no other kind.

In His Grace....

This post is the best one I have ever seen that explains this issue.

So what I see in your post explains how a person could continue in sin because they have never accepted the savior by choice and they desire to stay as they are therefore they cannot crucify Christ again, and there remains no sacrifice for their sins.   Is that what you are implying?  if so it makes a lot of sense to me

[psalmistsinger]

Early57,

Yes, essentially that is what I am saying.  I'm glad if it has helped.

Specifically the scripture in Hebrews about there no longer remaining a sacrifice for sin is showing the Hebrews the futility of going back to animal sacrifices when the only sacrifice that is now acceptable to God has been made by His Son. There is no other sacrifice for sin that can be made.

If someone continues in sinful actions they have not accepted the Savior as you said, or they do not understand God's grace.  

Many people have a "works" oriented understanding which is always doomed to failure (the arm of flesh will always fail), rather than a faith relationship that is totally dependent upon God.

He loves us not because of what we do, but because of who we are in Him: His children.

In turn as this love works in our lives it causes us to walk accordingly and naturally; not out of our own efforts trying to maintain a salvation that we did not purchase, but from hearts born of His Grace.

We love Him because He first loved us.

Remain blessed,

In His Grace....

[Petro]

Tawhano,

How can anyone believe unless one understands  first, I cannot help you in this department.

In order to understand one has to be able to critically examine the information put before  them and analyze it, but above all else, Christians who don't ask, don't receive. Understanding Gods word requires wisdom from above, and it only comes by prayer and supplication; to go around asking others or seeking the answers by reading others opinions, is insulting to the Spirit of God, who is able to make one wise in all matters concerning the Word of God.

James 1
5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6  But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7  For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8  A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Since I am not God, I can only point out the scriptures and the words for you which illuminate the verses, which you are unable to grasp, scoffers will never come to a  more perfect understanding because they look and trust for the truth of scripture, elsewhere.

I am going to go over this with you one more time.

Jesus, said "coloir=Red]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,[/color] (John 10:28),   keeping this truth in mind, as
you read ;

Heb 6
4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Whoever, these verses are speaking of, it is obvious by the beginning of verse 4 and verse 6;

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost. If they shall fall away, to renew them again un to repentance;

That, these can never be brought back to repentance.

Repentance is what is needed to come to faith in Jesus Christ.

Everyone who has come to faith in Jesus Christ, has, because they first repented of their sins.

Anyone who has not repented, has not come to faith in Jesus.  In other words, this is what the one,  spoken of,  in Heb 6,  has NOT done..

He has come to a clear  enlightened understanding of the Gospel, he understands he is a sinner, he understands , he must repent, he understands God has provided a way to have his sins forgiven,  he understands the Son of God was crucified for his sins  and that the blood of Jesus is accepted in his place for the remission of his sins, and in order to receive forgiveness of sin, he understands he must believe God and repent of his sins.

In summation of these things, is this person has been enlightened by the Holy Spirit.

And the result of being enlightened of the Gospel,  he has tasted the heavenly gift  

(Note:  vs 5, tells what he tasted , "the good word of God" which is able to save)

It is the Gospel which has been enlightened for him by the Spirit, and it is contaioned in the "good word of God",  just like this conversation we are having now, the truth is contained in the good Word of God, but you are unable to understand it, or grasp it, these although enlightened and having tasted the truth, haven't grasped it, because of the hardness of their heart, refer to Mat 13:19-22, you are familiar with thge passage.

Finally has been made a partaker of the Holy Ghost.

Now I already told you, that their are two meanings to the word  "partakers", when used as a noun, as it is in verse 4, in means "sharer", this individual, was a sharer in the sanctifying blessings of the Holy Spirit, He (the Spirit) enlightened him, and allowed him to taste (experience the reality) of the good word of God, thus he was one,  of many  "partakers" of the Holy Ghost.

This is clearly seen, in the life of Judas Iscariot, he literally was enlightened by the teachings of Jesus, he tasted the good word of God, in as much as he partook of the bread and wine of which Jesus said;

Mat 26
26  ..................................... Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28   For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

And he was also made a partaker of the Holy Ghost, when in Mark 6:7-13, he was empowered by Jesus, to minister in the power of the Holy Spirit, he no doubt even cast out devils.

This made him a partaker a "sharer" of the ministry of the Holy Ghost;

Peter said this about Judas, in;

 Acts 1
17  For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

So then, we see that this individual spoken of in Heb 6, was in fact enlightened, was a partaker of the Holy Ghost, and tasted the good word of God, which;

.............. is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.  (Heb 4:12-13)

And, in verse 6, it states "if he falls away" he can never be brought back to repentance.

Judas Iscariot fell away, after all he had been thru following Jesus 3 years, he turned his back on Him, and betrayed him, he was like these in Heb 3, who perished because of   hardness of their hearts, he was not made a partaker of Christ, otherwise he would continued with the others stedfast to the end.

He was a partaker of the Holy Ghost, but never a partaker of Christ, for if he had been a partaker of Christ he would have continued , like the others whom Jesus chose,  but, in falling away he manifested to the world,  he was not a partaker of Christ.

You say, that just because the Holy Ghost was not given, this would have been inpossible, but Jesus himself refutes this idea, since when he spoke to the Pharisees, he rebuked them saying;

Mat 12
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.  

Because they said;  24  ................... This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

When Jesus sent them out two by two, did they not cast out devils, heal, preach the coming Kingdom of God  by the Holy Spirit??

continued--

[Petro]

This then Jesus says is the unpardonable sin,

32  And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Despite, the Holy Ghost's testimony that Jesus was the messiah, Judas who saw his works, which testified concerning who He was,  rejected this truth, and did despite to the spirit of Grace, who by had been sanctified (Heb 10:29), to the hearing of the Gospel by partaking of the Holy Ghost.

Anyone who does not hold to the beginning confidence stedfast to the end, is of those who fall away.

Heb 3
14  For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Note what do the scriptures state concerning those who fall away;

2 Th 2
3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

And again, speaking of the falling away, and the man of sin;

1 Jhn 2
19  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

These in Heb 6, were  those who come right up to the way, the truth, and light, took a long hard look, and then turned and walked away, and in doing so sealed their own fate.  Such as it is today, and will continue to happen until the end comes.

"If", like the other Apostles and disciples,if they had continued on in that confidence, it would have been "impossible" for them to fall away, because confidence in the end produces saving faith.

These have rejected the pardon God has been offering to "whosoever will", thats why they can never be brought again unto to repentance. Evidence of this is they have fallen away from that confidence in the teaching of the Holy Ghost.

They were never saved, to begin with, because the Word of God, teaches, that Jesus gives ;
  .................eternal life to all the father gives me, and I will raise him up at the last day. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.  
I and my Father are one.

This is the reason, why it is impossible for true partakers of the Holy host who have been enlightened,and tasted the good Word of God, to fall away.

Because true partakers of the Holy Ghost in the end become partakers of Jesus Christ

I trust this will help you.

Blessings

Petro

[Tawhano]

Good post Psalmistsinger, for the most part I wholeheartedly agree with you on the points you have made. I like to add; sin is born of unbelief. God told Adam that if he ate of the forbidden fruit he would surely die but the Devil told him he would not. It wasn’t that he ate the fruit that was the sin but that he didn’t believe God that to do so would mean death.  The practice of sacrifice for sin atonement was the act of giving up something to pay for your sins. Each person who wished to have their sins forgiven would have to actively give up an animal (if they had none they had to buy one). This they would do on a regular basis but it didn’t work as we see below.

Hebrews 10
1   For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2   For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3   But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.[/i]

God’s plan was to have a sacrifice that would end the need to have anymore. The one sacrifice that would wash all our sins away from that point on. As in the first sacrifice, the person who wanted to have their sins forgiven had to participate in the sacrifice by giving something up. Jesus did the hard part, he gave himself up as our sacrifice but how are we able to take part in this sacrifice?

Romans 6
3   Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4   Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5   For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Colossians 2
11   In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12   Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13   And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;[/i]

But what if we continue to sin?

Hebrews 10
26   For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Hebrews 6
6   If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.[/i]

We cannot sacrifice Jesus over and over again for our sins. His sacrifice was a one time only, good for all time sacrifice. So what happens if we sin again? We go to our advocate, Jesus, with a repented heart and ask forgiveness.

1 John 2
1   My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2   And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.[/i]

However, many of you have suggested that if any man sins then he wasn’t saved in the beginning. So why are there so many letters to the churches of the New Testament exhorting them not to sin? These were letters to the Elect, the Believers. It seems pointless to write to them and warn them of the dangers of falling into sin again if, as believers, they were unable to sin. Perhaps you are saying you can be a believer but not be saved?

It seems to me the writers of the books and letters of the New Testament were warning us of the dangers of falling away for a reason. We are told that God is steadfast in his promises and we likewise should be steadfast in our faith. If there is no danger that we can throw away the promises that God gave us then why warn us of imaginary dangers?

Romans 11
21   For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22   Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23   And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24   For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

1 Corinthians 10
11   Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12   Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
13   There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.[/i]

[Tawhano]

I have to ask this even though it may cause this thread to divert from the original topic but I need clarification. All the verses I come up with showing someone falling away is met with ‘they weren’t really saved’.  How and when is someone saved?

[Early57]

They become saved the very second they call upon the name of the Lord.

[Petro]

When is the $64,000 question; here is what Jesus said;

Jhn 3
7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


As for how; by purifying ones soul, in obeying the truth (1 Pet 1:22) and giving God and answer from a good conscience toward God (1 Pet 3:21),  only then can the Holy Spirit fill the believer, this is what John the Baptist spoke of when he said;

"he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost," (Mk 1:


Jhn 1
31  And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32  And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33  And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Note, verse 31, John says he came baptizing with water, so that He (Jesus) might be made manifest to Israel (the nation), thats all,  baptism by water never saved anyone then nor does anything for anyone today, expect proclaim a desire of the heart of the individual  to be identified with Christ, and then only when done after the new birth, as testimony.

Verse 33, the bapstism with the Holy Spirit is nothing more than the filling of the Spirit of God.

Blessings,

Petro