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Author Topic: Eternal Security.  (Read 18090 times)
Pilgrim
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« on: April 11, 2003, 06:13:27 PM »

In the Image of Christ
Colossians 3:8-11

“The Gates of Hell”

“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build
my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”   Matthew 16:18

   These are the words that Jesus spoke to Peter after he confessed in verse 16 that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God.  This is just one little sentence spoken by Jesus, yet it speaks volumes about the church.  As we study God’s Word, we learn that the church is not buildings made up of brick and mortar, wood and nails, but by individuals who have placed their trust in Jesus for the salvation of their souls.  These individuals are not called Christians because of where they attend, but because they have put their trust in Christ and follow Him.
   One of the first things a careful student of the Bible will observe is that the church was not in existence at the time Jesus spoke these words.  Notice that Jesus said, “I will build my church”.  He is talking future tense here.  This would not make sense if the church was already in existence.  Also, we see that the church belongs to the Lord Jesus, He refers to it as, “my church”.  The  church doesn’t belong to any individual, family or group, no matter how important or famous or rich they may be. One can own a building or a piece of land, but not a church. The church belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ, because it was purchased with His very own blood (Acts 20:28).  We also learn that the Lord Jesus is the master builder of the church; He said “I will build my church”.  It is the Lord who adds to the church; we may co-labor with the Him, but it is the Lord who gives the increase  (Acts 2:47, 1 Cor. 3:6-7).
   As you have already seen, with just five words the Lord has taught us many wonderful things concerning the church.  Yet, I believe one of the priceless truths for the believer is to be found in the remaining part of the verse, “and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”.  The truth that is taught here is most precious because it clearly declares the security of salvation that the one who believes has.  There are many today that teach that a person can be saved and yet somehow afterwards lose his salvation.  Some say that a person can lose their salvation by his own will, saying he no longer wishes to be saved, others teach that a person can lose his salvation by willful sin.
   Those that think that a true believer could lose his salvation for whatever reason would have difficultly reconciling their belief with this verse.  You see, if a person could lose their salvation it would make Jesus out to be a liar in this verse, since the gates of hell would in fact prevail against the church.  It would be helpful to understand what Jesus was talking about when He spoke of the gates of hell.  Death and the grave throughout the scriptures is called hell or hades.  Acts 2:26-31 is a good example of this when speaking about the Lord Jesus.

   “Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.  Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.  Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.  Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;  He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption”.

   In Luke 16:19-31 we read about the rich man and Lazarus.  In verse 22 we read “the rich man also died, and was buried;  And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments”.  In this passage we learn that the rich man’s body was buried in a grave yet his soul was being tormented in hell.  Hell, then, is the place for those who die in their sins, those that never called on the name of the Lord for salvation (Rom. 10:9-13).  It is a place of great unrelenting torment and eternal suffering (Rev. 14:9-11 20:10-15)
   The gates of hell open to receive the dead but they never open to let the dead escape. This is a sobering thought. Friend, if you die in this life without Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior your dwelling place will be in the torments and sufferings of hell where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.  There is no escape from that place.  The only time death and hell will give up the dead is when the dead are judged and thrown into the lake of fire along with death and hell (Rev. 20:13-15).  This is the wrath of God that all men deserve because of their rebellion and sin against Him.  Yet, because of His great love for us, God sent His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ to die in our place.  God poured out His wrath on His own Son, the divine Substitute, so that those who place their trust in Jesus as Lord and Savior would never see the wrath of God which is the second death.  Instead of wrath, God gives eternal life to those that trust in His Son (John 3:16, 5:24, 10:27-30).  They will never see the second death.  This is why I say that those that believe that you can lose this great salvation would have to make Jesus out to be a liar when He said, “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”  You see, if even one individual Christian (Remember that the church is made up of individuals that place their trust in the Lord Jesus) could lose his salvation and end up behind the gates of hell, then the gates of hell would in fact have prevailed against the church.  Death would still have its sting and the grave would still have its victory.  The apostle Paul would not have been able to declare these words in 1 Corinthians 15:54-57:

   “So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.  O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?  The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.  But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Visit our web site for more articles and information at  http://home.wmis.net/~pilgrim

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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2003, 06:17:47 PM »

Eternal Life

Hebrews 6:4 “For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,  5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,  6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.”

The book of Hebrews is a contrast between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. To properly understand the book of Hebrews this must be kept in mind. One of the main keywords in Hebrews is “better” which is used in reference to the New Covenant. The writer of Hebrew is dealing with converts under the New Covenant who are going back to the things of the old covenant for whatever reason. There are about five different explanations for the five warning passages in Hebrews such as the verses above. Some teach that this is speaking about a false professor, one who came close to being saved even partaking of spiritual things. I reject this explanation because the writer uses the strongest possible words to describe one who is truly a Christian. Also in chapter 10 we read:

Hebrews 10:26 “ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,  27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.  28  He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:  29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

Notice that the person mentioned here cannot be a false professor because verse 29 says he was sanctified by the blood of the covenant or in other words he was set apart by the blood of Jesus. This cannot happen to anyone but a child of God. The unsaved are not sanctified by the blood of Jesus.

Another very popular explanation for these passages is that the person was truly a child of God but lost his salvation. I reject this explanation as well. First, there are to many Scriptures that teach that a child of God is granted eternal life at his conversion in Christ. If a person could lose their salvation then we have to redefine many words. For example “forever” would not mean forever, “eternal” would not mean eternal, “everlasting” would not mean everlasting, “never perish” would not mean never perish. Now if we change the meanings for these words in relation to salvation then we ought to be honest with ourselves and apply the same meaning wherever we see the words. So when Scripture teach that those who are thrown into the lake of fire and the smoke of their burning ascendeth forever then we must conclude that this might not br forever seeing the same word is used in relation to salvation. Look at the problems you would have if you are consistent in applying the same definitions to word concerning other issues as you do concerning salvation. Below is a small sample.  

Rom. 16:26 “But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God.”

If salvation is not everlasting then a honest person would have to ask is God everlasting seeing the same word is used to describe both.

2 Cor. 9:9 “(As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.”

If salvation is not forever how can God’s righteousness be forever seeing the same words are used to describe both?

Rev 4:9 “And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, 10  The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever , and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,”

If salvation is not forever then does the Lord live forever seeing the same words are used to describe both?

Hebrews 9:12 “Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].”

Was it eternal redemption or was is temporary in some cases?

Heb. 10:14 “For  by one offering he hath perfected  for ever them that are sanctified.  15  [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us:  for after that he had said before,  16  This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;  17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.  18  Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin”

Did the Lord perfect forever those that are sanctified or in some cases only temporary?  

Rev. 1:6 “And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever . Amen”

If salvation is not forever then is the Lord’s glory and dominion for ever and ever, seeing the same words are used to describe both?

Matt. 25:41 “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”

If salvation is not forever then is the fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels forever, seeing the same words are used to describe both?

Matt. 25:46 “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal”

If salvation is not forever then is the everlasting punishment of unbelievers forever, seeing the same words are used to describe both?
Continued
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Pilgrim
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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2003, 06:18:39 PM »

Continued
2 Thess. 1:9 “Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”

Jude 1:7 “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

Jude 1:13 “Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.”
 
Mark 3:29 “But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal  damnation:”

I hope you can see the danger in redefining words with set meanings in order to accommodate a doctrine. This boils down to letting your doctrine define the Word of God instead of letting the Word of God define your doctrine. Here are the set meaning of some of the words, what right do we have in redefining them?

Forever
165 aion {ahee-ohn'}
from the same as 104; TDNT - 1:197,31; n m
AV - ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4,
age 2, eternal 2, misc 5; 128
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

Eternal life, Everlasting
166 aionios {ahee-o'-nee-os}
from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2,
since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and
always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
For Synonyms see entry 5801

Dwelleth
3306 meno {men'-o}
a root word; TDNT - 4:574,581; v
AV - abide 61, remain 16, dwell 15, continue 11, tarry 9, endure 3,
misc 5; 120
1) to remain, abide
1a) in reference to place
1a1) to sojourn, tarry
1a2) not to depart
1a2a) to continue to be present
1a2b) to be held, kept, continually
1b) in reference to time
1b1) to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure
1b1a) of persons, to survive, live
1c) in reference to state or condition
1c1) to remain as one, not to become another or different
2) to wait for, await one

Everlasting
126 aidios {ah-id'-ee-os}
from 104; TDNT - 1:168,25; adj
AV - eternal 1, everlasting 1; 2
1) eternal, everlasting
For Synonyms see entry 5801

Perish
622 apollumi {ap-ol'-loo-mee}
from 575 and the base of 3639; TDNT - 1:394,67; v
AV - perish 33, destroy 26, lose 22, be lost 5, lost 4, misc 2; 92
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose    

that never shall be quenched
BDB/Thayers # 762
762 asbestos as'-bes-tos}
from 1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of 4570;; adj
AV - unquenchable 2, never shall be quenched 2; 4
1) unquenched, unquenchable
1a) of eternal hell fire to punish the damned
Another explanation which I believe is the correct one is that the writer of Hebrews is using a hypothetical situation to make a point. This is the only explanation that I am aware of the does not violate other Scriptures. The writer of Hebrews is concerned that some are turning back to the Old Covenant ways so he sets out to prove how foolish this is in light of how much better the New Covenant is. His argument would amount to something like this for Hebrews 6:4-6 (the verses at the top of this post).

If it were possible for someone who is truly saved (verses 4-5) to fall away and abandon the salvation he has received by the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus (verse 6). It would be impossible for him to be renewed to repentance (salvation) because in order for him to be renewed he would have to crucify the Son of God again, and put him to an open shame which will never happen (verse 6). The point being that outside of the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus in the New Covenant there is no salvation.

I believe this explains Hebrews 10 as well.

Hebrews 10:26 “ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,  27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.  28  He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:  29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

The argument is something like this. If it were possible for a true Christian to sin willfully after receiving the gospel truth by rejecting it, there would be no hope of him ever getting saved again. The only thing awaiting him is the fiery indignation of God seeing that he has trodden under foot the Lord Jesus and counted His blood by which he was saved an unholy thing. The only way of salvation is through the blood of Jesus and if a Christian could reject that there is no hope for him seeing he rejected the only thing that could save his soul.

The hypothetical is the only way I know of that allows these verses to fall in perfect harmony with the rest of Scriptures. I hope this may help some. May God open all of our eyes of understanding.

Pilgrim
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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2003, 01:57:51 AM »

Oklahoma Howdy to Pilgrim,

I enjoyed your posts. I am studying the same subject right now. I'll post a couple more verses that many people use trying to prove "Once Saved, Not Always Saved". I firmly believe that Salvation is Eternal and can't be lost.
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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2003, 07:24:54 AM »

Amen Pilgrim
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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2003, 08:25:37 AM »

Amen Pilgrim

DITTO  Grin
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« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2003, 08:31:30 AM »

Hi blackeyedpeas, suzie,

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who believe that one can lose their salvation also believe a gospel of salvation by works. Many of them will deny this but no matter which way you look at their doctrine it is up to the individual to live in such a way as not to lose their salvation. Therefore their salvation is based in their own works, which is condemned through out the Bible.

Eph.2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:  9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.  10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

We are saved by grace through faith not by our own filthy works of righteousness. Good works are a result of salvation while salvation is never a result of our own works. After one has been saved by God’s grace their life will reflect the salvation they received by the good works that God will do through them.

Pilgrim
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« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2003, 08:42:36 AM »

Hi blackeyedpeas, suzie,

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who believe that one can lose their salvation also believe a gospel of salvation by works. Many of them will deny this but no matter which way you look at their doctrine it is up to the individual to live in such a way as not to lose their salvation. Therefore their salvation is based in their own works, which is condemned through out the Bible.

Eph.2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:  9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.  10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

We are saved by grace through faith not by our own filthy works of righteousness. Good works are a result of salvation while salvation is never a result of our own works. After one has been saved by God’s grace their life will reflect the salvation they received by the good works that God will do through them.

Pilgrim

Hi Pilgrim

DITTO  Grin
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« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2003, 09:17:15 AM »

Hi blackeyedpeas, suzie,

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who believe that one can lose their salvation also believe a gospel of salvation by works. Many of them will deny this but no matter which way you look at their doctrine it is up to the individual to live in such a way as not to lose their salvation. Therefore their salvation is based in their own works, which is condemned through out the Bible.

Eph.2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:  9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.  10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

We are saved by grace through faith not by our own filthy works of righteousness. Good works are a result of salvation while salvation is never a result of our own works. After one has been saved by God’s grace their life will reflect the salvation they received by the good works that God will do through them.

Pilgrim
"our own filthy works of righteousness".      Huh

How can such be? If it is God's righteousness which is the only righteousness there is. How can such be filthy? If it is God's righteousness, how can it be our own? How can any works of righteousness through faith be filthy?

I doubt that a christian that believes they are saved but can
turn from God and is sincerely trying to live a true Christian life is doing filthy works of righteousness. But is probably more trying to live Godly in His righteousness as all Christians should be doing.

 Huh Huh
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« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2003, 09:29:03 AM »

Hi ollie,

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Our own attempts at being righteous by our own conduct is as filthy rages before God as God’s Word declare in Isaiah 64.


Is. 64:6 “But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.”

God bless,
Pilgrim
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« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2003, 11:11:40 AM »

Hi ollie,

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Our own attempts at being righteous by our own conduct is as filthy rages before God as God’s Word declare in Isaiah 64.


Is. 64:6 “But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.”

God bless,
Pilgrim
Hi,
 Thanks for your response and giving  those bible verses.
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« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2003, 02:32:15 PM »



John here:
Eternal security you say? Before one could believe you, perhaps you need to prove [your] eternal security? Personally I don't like to get into peoples mind. But rather than to continue on in disagreement of this non/sense of God creating robots that cannot think for themselves, that so far are seen in your POSTINGS only, perhaps you can tell us of your 'mental state'? In this way you will be judging yourself, huh? Are you ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED? Check out the last few verses of Rev.'s book!

*Remember:
First, one HAS GOT TO BE CONVERTED, *BORN AGAIN! And HOW CAN ALL KNOW THIS? Simple! by checking out the one who inspired the Words of the Master's book in Acts 5:32! No 'OBEDIENCE' No Holy Spirit! It is that PLAIN!
--John
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« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2003, 02:57:41 PM »

Oklahoma Howdy to Pilgrim, Ollie, Suzie, Ambassador4Christ,

It looks like there are more and more folks finding the site back up.

Pilgrim, I went to your website and really enjoyed it. My most recent discussion on "Once Saved, Not Always Saved" posed the question of what if the believer stops believing. I could think of insanity or illness being the only possible cause for a condition like this.

The person believing OSNAS quoted:

2 Pet 2:20—For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2 Pet 2:21—For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Taken out of context, these verses appear to support his claim. I replied with the surrounding context and other portions of Scripture that clearly give the actual meaning of these Scriptures. "Knowledge" is different that "Belief and Acceptance". The other terms that came to play were "Fall, total Fall, and Stumble". One must also note the subject of 2 Peter 2 is false teachers. I'll be back to join in the discussion. I firmly believe in Eternal Security and Salvation.
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« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2003, 03:28:40 PM »

Oklahoma Howdy to Pilgrim, Ollie, Suzie, Ambassador4Christ,

It looks like there are more and more folks finding the site back up.

Pilgrim, I went to your website and really enjoyed it. My most recent discussion on "Once Saved, Not Always Saved" posed the question of what if the believer stops believing. I could think of insanity or illness being the only possible cause for a condition like this.

The person believing OSNAS quoted:

2 Pet 2:20—For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2 Pet 2:21—For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Taken out of context, these verses appear to support his claim. I replied with the surrounding context and other portions of Scripture that clearly give the actual meaning of these Scriptures. "Knowledge" is different that "Belief and Acceptance". The other terms that came to play were "Fall, total Fall, and Stumble". One must also note the subject of 2 Peter 2 is false teachers. I'll be back to join in the discussion. I firmly believe in Eternal Security and Salvation.
Those Oklahoma "howdies" were really missed when the site was down. Thank you for this greeting.
 Your above post contains some good thoughts which I want to study more.

Thank you
Ollie
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« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2003, 04:01:07 PM »

Hi blackeyedpeas,

Amen to post #12. Glad to hear you liked our web site. Some other strong verses on eternal security are in Eph. 1

Eph. 1:12 “That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.  13  In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,  14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

God’s Word clearly teaches that a true Christian is sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (verse 13). Verse 14 tells us that the Holy Spirit the “earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” The word earnest here means:

BDB/Thayers # 728
728 arrhabon ar-hrab-ohn'}
of Hebrew origin 06162; TDNT - 1:475,80; n m
AV - earnest 3; 3
1) an earnest
1a) money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment
that the full amount will subsequently be paid

In other words the Holy Spirit is our guarantee that our redemption is complete and that a true Christian can never lose the salvation God has granted them by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. If a true Christian could lose their salvation then God would default on the Holy Spirit. Who for even a moment believes that God will default on the Holy Spirit? This is something that could never happen, therefore our salvation is held secure by God and not by ourselves.

God bless,
Pilgrim
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New Life Bible Chapel
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