Whew, aw, some interesting thots:
It might help if we stuck with what God has to say about it since He is a Jew.Hmmm.
There were 2 lines of descendents from Abraham- one as the stars of the sky (spiritual) and one as the sand of the sea(earthly) There is both a heavenly and earthly Jerusalem. National Israel has, and always will, inherit earthly blessings. All promises and covenants to the nation will be fulfilled.
What 'bout the line of Ishmael? Is that then a third?
In the Time of Jacob's Trouble there is going to be a wholesale slaughter of practicall the ebtire race of Jews and only those who believe on Christ will be saved as it is the judgment of God against Isreal fir their rejection of the Godhead.There does appear to be worldwide growing anti-Semitism, with I guess the Nazi Holocaust just a dress rehearsal??
Thank you, aw.
It would be a difficult Bible study and impossible for men to understand without the Holy Bible. Yes, thank you, bep. Some good points.
Yes, that's a good point too, Joan. Which raises a whole separate bushel of fish.
ebia:
Didn't follow this bit at all, except to say that the Koran says the same as the bible on this, so if it "authenticates" the bible, why doesn't it "authenticate" the Koran.I was referring to one of the general three categories that a secular person might classify "Jews" as: Ethnic, religious or race. Specifically, I was saying that if a secular refers at all to Jewish history, that is, namely, Abraham and the story of Abraham, then by definition they are then admitting to the religious category or classificiation of "Jew"--that is, that one is a "Jew" by religion, since the religion of the Jew is specifically a historic one. And that from that story of Abraham, we have unfolding two lines--Isaac, by Sarah; and half-brother, Ishmael, by Hagar--both of course being Semitic by their father, but Ismael being only half-Semitic(half Ham). And that therefore anyone, as Joan nails it, who practices Judaism, is simply a Jew.
My point was, appealing to Jewish history at all then admits, at the very least, to Jewishness as a religion. Perhaps my ultimate point was then, a secular then admits to that, then they are getting very close to then what makes a Jew within that context, and that's getting very close to the "chosen" part of their identity--that is, within their religion, they were "chosen" by the "God" of their religion. And actually, to assert that, is of course the height of presumption--from a worldly point of view--esp. in view of the current growing internationalism, levelling of all playing fields, relaxation of national boundaries, etc. Unless of course it really is true--if their "God" really did choose them, and "their" God really is "God"?
So for the secular getting very close to the "Jew" as defined historically, is almost unavoidably having to define "Jewishness" as a religion...
Thank you, Petro. Very good point. Then Christians, NT-wise, are the true Jew. Circumcision of the heart. Romans 2:29 Good point. Thank you.
But still, my point was more on how the secular world might be justifying it's view of the Jew--or, that is, the
thinking (hehe--is there such a thing?) secular world.
It's seeming to me that a Jew is defined by his heritage specifically--separating him from his Abrahamic heritage is impossible, without simply denying that that history is fictional.
Reba, I thot I remembered "Jew" being used pretty early on in Genesis; but I've gone back to search, and can't find it.
But weren't they referred to as Jews in Esther--and when was that?
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