Paul2's on the Pre-Trib. Rapture

[nChrist]

Hello Paul2,

I hope the following helps some and is worthy for your consideration on the age of accountability question:

The age of accountability is a difficult and time consuming topic to study. Some Bible scholars think this age might be higher than most of us tend to think. A distinction should also be made between physical death and the second death. There is disagreement and uncertainty about the actual age of accountability, but I think it is a clear teaching of the Holy Bible. Who does God hold accountable? As examples, see the following Scriptures in context:

Deuteronomy 1:39 KJV  Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Numbers 14:29 KJV  Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,

Numbers 26:62-65 KJV  And those that were numbered of them were twenty and three thousand, all males from a month old and upward: for they were not numbered among the children of Israel, because there was no inheritance given them among the children of Israel.  63  These are they that were numbered by Moses and Eleazar the priest, who numbered the children of Israel in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho.  64  But among these there was not a man of them whom Moses and Aaron the priest numbered, when they numbered the children of Israel in the wilderness of Sinai.  65  For the LORD had said of them, They shall surely die in the wilderness. And there was not left a man of them, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.

Matthew 18:14 KJV  Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Matthew 19:13-15 KJV  Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.  14  But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.  15  And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.

_____________________

It has always been my thought that the unborn, infants, and children belong to God. These thoughts I think have a foundation in Scripture:

Psalms 22:9-10 KJV  But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.  10  I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

Psalms 71:5-6 KJV  For thou art my hope, O Lord GOD: thou art my trust from my youth.  6  By thee have I been holden up from the womb: thou art he that took me out of my mother's bowels: my praise shall be continually of thee.

Psalms 127:3-5 KJV  Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.  4  As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth.  5  Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.

Psalms 139:13-18 KJV  For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.  14  I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.  15  My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.  16  Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.  17  How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!  18  If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

Matthew 10:29-31 KJV  Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.  30  But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.  31  Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Luke 12:1-7 KJV  In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.  2  For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.  3  Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.  4  And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.  5  But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.  6  Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?  7  But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Brother Jerry]

I tend to believe as you do Tom.  However there is also Scriptural evidence to suggest that even children are not spared.  There were no children spared before the flood.

Gen 6:5  Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (NASB)
the man referred to here is mankind.  We know this because we see that Noah was the only one who found favor in the entire race.  Not a child, but a man and his wife were selected from all of mankind.

Also there was no age restrictions on the first born to be taken of Egypt.

We also see no children spared in Sodom or Gomorrah.

In Deut 20 we see the Hittites, Amorites, Canannites, and the Perrizites that the Israelites were to run across were to have nothing that breathes left behind.  We know this includes children because in previous verses it talks about other places the children are to be spared.

And when Paul states that 'all have sinned' we do not see an exception clause to that. 

Again I agree that the age of reason fits into a loving God, a just God, and there is some Biblical evidence to suggest it.  However it is not clearly spelled out in the Bible, and there is also Biblical evidence to suggest that there is no age of reason. 

It is also important to note a couple of things.  Age of reason or not, should not change your spiritual stance with God.  If you accept an age of reason, be ready to support it Biblicly as Tom has pointed out many great verses to support it.  If you do not support it then again be ready to Biblicly show that all are sinners and not excluded from a sin nature, and that God is just in all His actions and we should not hold our standards of right and wrong to God, but instead should abandon our ideas of right and wrong and adopt God's.

[Paul2]

I think that the age of accountability is different for each child, and I must mention that some never reach an age of accountability (i.e. downs, retardation). A general rule of thumb I think would be somewhere between 10 and 12 for most normal children.

    Do you believe it can be taught as a "fact", that all the "little ones", those definately under the age of accountability, will be taken at the Rapture? I believe this but I want to be 100% positive so I can boldly teach the little children will be leaving as a doctrine. I believe it will be the final act of Grace to take all the children but I've heard others who argue that the children of those who hate Christ are part of the curse that falls on the God haters to the third and fouth generation.

 Exodus 20:5  "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"

     I don't believe the above verse would somehow prove the children of unbelievers are hated, it means to me that the consequences for hating God will last for last for generations which is true. All our children are victims of the parents decision making.

   I'm writing a book and I am field testing anything I have any question about, for I want to be right and teach the truth. I believe all the children are going to be taken unless someone can show me why not to believe it.

[Paul2]

   We should remember something about Noah's flood, God was purifying the bloodline of humanity that had been tainted by the breeding of angelic beings with Human women.
At Noah's flood if children died they were safe from Satan and God can resurrect them. At the Rapture of the Church, Satan gets to test and destroy those left behind. Does a 5 year old child deserve to be forced to take the mark of the beast or be martyred?

   The Rapture of the Church is the end of the age of Grace and the beginning of the Day of the Lord. Does a 5 year old child anywhere in the world deserve the wrath of God? I believe that in a final act of Grace, all the young ones, by grace and mercy alone will be taken before the wrath of God comes on a Christ rejecting world.

[Soldier4Christ]

We are told in Num 8:17 in regards to speaking of the firstborn of Israel as being His that when God took the first born of Egypt that He sanctified them for Himself.

[nChrist]

Hello Paul and Jerry,

I just got my coffee. There are differences of opinion on this question, and I don't think that the Bible nails it down. We must also consider a difference between physical death and the second death. Many children were killed in the wars of the Bible. One school of thought is that they belonged to God and He will take them. Another school of thought is that their parents were evil so they were evil, regardless of age. Personally, I don't think it is the nature of God to send a baby to hell for what his or her parents did. I think the real question involves the second death, not physical death. I did some reading last night and think that some of the same Scriptures against abortion apply to this topic, so I'm back to the thought that the children belong to God. The age of accountability argument makes sense to me for a just and merciful God. I'm still looking, but I don't think this can be proven with the Bible one way or another. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah would be a good example to study. Yes, all the children were killed, but are they going to hell? I don't think so. There may be other portions of Scripture to study that pertain to the nature of God. We can all jump back in with whatever we find. Keep in mind that the accountability question applies all the way back to the womb. So, would an aborted baby belonging to a prostitute be sent to hell because of the sins of the mother? I don't think so.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[nChrist]

We are told in Num 8:17 in regards to speaking of the firstborn of Israel as being His that when God took the first born of Egypt that He sanctified them for Himself.

This is a good Scripture to study and I'm sure there are others like it. I've been trying to think about good search criteria to use. I did do a search on "age of accountability' through all of my commentaries. I got a number of matches, and all agreed that there is an age of accountability. I got some of the same Scripture references I've already posted. I do plan to look some more.

[Brother Jerry]

I agree completely.  I have heard both sides and both have points.  I have mentioned that I believe in an age of reason.  But I also know that even if I am wrong on that....my Savior has already paid my cover charge, and God will correct me when I stand before Him.  It has not changed my drive to ensure that children are saved as early as they can fully understand that.  It is a true dichotomy for me, because if there is a mental age of reason, then I do not want them to grow up to quickly and they should enjoy that innocence.  But I also try and teach as young as I can and in many aspects push them to grow up so that they can then fall under the Grace of Jesus.

[nChrist]

I agree completely.  I have heard both sides and both have points.  I have mentioned that I believe in an age of reason.  But I also know that even if I am wrong on that....my Savior has already paid my cover charge, and God will correct me when I stand before Him.  It has not changed my drive to ensure that children are saved as early as they can fully understand that.  It is a true dichotomy for me, because if there is a mental age of reason, then I do not want them to grow up to quickly and they should enjoy that innocence.  But I also try and teach as young as I can and in many aspects push them to grow up so that they can then fall under the Grace of Jesus.

Amen! Bringing our children up in the ways of the Lord is one of the greatest acts of love we can give our children. I subscribe to the practice of reading Bible stories to them before they can even talk. Besides, it's a special time of closeness whether they understand a word you say or not. I think it would surprise many to find out what they do understand and how young.

[Shammu]

Personally I believe the Bible tells us that children belong to him under the age of accountability, which is different in each child. The only way to help is to raise our children with the ways of our Lord.

Deuteronomy 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
Matthew 18:10-14 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Resting in His arms
Bob

[nChrist]

Brother Bob,

I believe the same way you do about an age of accountability.