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Author Topic: How many PLANS of salvation are there ??  (Read 1554 times)
dan p
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« on: January 14, 2011, 02:17:07 PM »

Hi to all and many believers say that there is only  ONE  GOSPEL and one message from Genesis through Revelation and that salvation has  ALWAYS  been by grace and I say ,  NO .

 #1 , Since Acts 9 , beginning with Paul and for the last 2000 years Jews and Gentiles are saved by Grace and  placed into the Body o9f Christ  Eph 2:8  and 1 Cor 12:13 .

 #2 ,The Jews are saved at the  END  of the  Tribulation and they are the  ONE  who are "  born again "  in Isa 66:8 ,  " shall  the earth be made to bring forth in one day ??   OR  shall a Nation be  BORN  at once  Huh    Or  Ezk 36:25-31  and  Heb 8:10  and in Rev 1:6  , the Nation of Israel will be Kings and Priests unto to God and His Father , and this is not the Body of Christ .

 #3 , Then the Gentiles  will be saved during the Millennium by being Grafted , Rom 11:17- 25 .

 So , I see from the following 3 different  PLANS  for 3 different people and there salvation and Covenant and Acts 2 believers need to go back to their drawing boards .

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David_james
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« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2011, 11:44:04 AM »

it is still all one plan. Salvation through Christ.
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Rev 21:4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
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« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2011, 01:19:09 PM »

it is still all one plan. Salvation through Christ.

 Hi David James and without the shedding of blood , Heb 9:22  , there is no forgiveness of sins , but the Law ,  New  Covenant and Grace are different !

 And God has earthly people and Heavenly people .
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Rhys
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« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2011, 05:04:55 PM »

Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
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dan p
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« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2011, 07:27:31 PM »

Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 Hi Rhys , and you are saying what of the  OP Huh
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David_james
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« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2011, 09:47:12 PM »

Jesus shed his blood for all people for all times.
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Rev 21:4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2011, 10:13:52 AM »

Gal 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 2:21  I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 3:10  For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11  But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12  And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Heb 7:19  For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:


The curse of the law is sin and death, the law which even the saints of old could not keep. hmmm NO SALVATION THERE!

Act 15:9  And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10  Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Salvation is and always has been by faith in God and by His wonderful grace. Before the cross it was faith in God, the hope of better things to come as He promised. After the cross that better hope had arrived bringing salvation to all that believe.(Mat 27:52-53)

Eph 4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


Act 15:8  And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9  And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Rom 10:12  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Rom 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
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« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2011, 10:22:46 AM »

Amen Brother Roger
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Rev 21:4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
nChrist
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« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2011, 01:16:48 PM »

Gal 2:16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 2:21  I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 3:10  For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11  But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12  And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Heb 7:19  For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:


The curse of the law is sin and death, the law which even the saints of old could not keep. hmmm NO SALVATION THERE!

Act 15:9  And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10  Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Salvation is and always has been by faith in God and by His wonderful grace. Before the cross it was faith in God, the hope of better things to come as He promised. After the cross that better hope had arrived bringing salvation to all that believe.(Mat 27:52-53)

Eph 4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


Act 15:8  And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9  And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Rom 10:12  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Rom 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Another Amen!
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Brother Jerry
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2011, 09:42:28 AM »

Amen Brother.

And the FACT that Jesus said that NO MAN may come before the Father but through Him, trumps any and all dispensations that man can create.  There is but one Gospel, there is but one plan of salvation.

#1 not certain why you would think that Grace only started at Acts 9...it has been going since Gen 1:1

#2 There were saved Jews before Christ.  Enoch and Elijah are two that immediately come to mind as being spared a physical death and we are told are with God.

#3 You are trying to discuss on a different thread and have yet to explain your position.

Sorry but once again your argument falls short, primarily because you do not explain yourself.  But I have seen the hyper dispensationalism before and it fails in the light of the Biblical evidence.

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I am like most fathers.  I, like most, want more for my children than I have.

I am unlike most fathers.  What I would like my children to have more of is crowns to lay at Jesus feet.
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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2011, 01:31:00 PM »

 Hi Brother Jerry , so where were Dispensations created "  by man "  , and you wrote that and what do explain Eph 3:1-9 or maybe the Holy Spirit messe3d up by inserting 1 Cor 9:`7  where The  Holy Spirit says that  A   Dispensation  of the Gospel is committed unto me .

 Or , explain Col 1:25  " according to the DISPENSATION  of God that was given to me for you , to  FULFILL  the word of God .

 I would like to hear your answer !   dan p
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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2011, 02:40:37 PM »

Hi Brother Jerry , so where were Dispensations created "  by man "  , and you wrote that and what do explain Eph 3:1-9 or maybe the Holy Spirit messe3d up by inserting 1 Cor 9:`7  where The  Holy Spirit says that  A   Dispensation  of the Gospel is committed unto me .

 Or , explain Col 1:25  " according to the DISPENSATION  of God that was given to me for you , to  FULFILL  the word of God .

 I would like to hear your answer !   dan p

Do you know what a dispensation is?
Here let's pull out the definitions
a. An exemption from a church law, a vow, or another similar obligation granted in a particular case by an ecclesiastical authority
b. The divine ordering of worldly affairs.
c. A religious system or code of commands considered to have been divinely revealed or appointed.

Now a. is pretty much out, we are not speaking of exemptions here.  So that leaves b. and c.  And what you appear to be implying is that either there was a different ordering of world affairs that started in Acts 9.  And by most hyper-dispensationalists there were other dispensations before and after Acts 9.  So how many times do you believe God changed the ordering of worldly affairs?
If you are not going off of that definition then lets look at c.  At what time do you believe God changed any of His commands?  As a matter of fact Jesus kept the 10 Commandments and expanded upon those.  Most of the rest of the OT commands Jesus fulfilled.  There was a different dispensation in the strictest of senses when Jesus died and was risen.  But after that...nothing until the second coming.

You cite 1 Corinthians 9:17.  Can you please explain how the Gospel referred to there is any different than the Gospel message anywhere else.  You will not be able too because Paul is speaking of the Gospel message.  This is clear from the verses before and after.  This is nothing new that is mentioned.

Colossians 1:25  Again please provide any evidence where this "dispensation" is any different than the Gospel of Christ?

Ephesians 3.  Again how is what Paul says a different dispensation than anything else?  it is not.  Paul was not the first to go to the Gentiles...God was.  We even have example with Jesus and the Samaritan woman at the well.  What Paul preaches is THE dispensation which is Jesus Christ, that is the same for all, Jew and Gentile alike.  To try and put more into it than that, is a creation of man and is bound for failure.

Again you attempt to express your point by saying little.  I point out once again that you have not explained your stance with enough detail.  And you think asking me questions is a defense for your stance?  Sorry the Biblical evidence is clear there is no special dispensation given to Paul that is any different than any given to anyone else. 
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Brother Jerry

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I am unlike most fathers.  What I would like my children to have more of is crowns to lay at Jesus feet.
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« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2011, 06:49:42 PM »

Hi Bother Jerry and even when I explained what  OIKONOMIA  means in the Greek  you stumble at what Paul means by it , so let me clarify for you .

 OIKOS means House .

 NOMOS means Law .

 Check VINE'S  and clear it up /

 So what does  house law's means and what i8s Paul talking about so , lets give an example first .

 Under the Law of Mo0se they had 613 laws that governed Israel , agreed ??

 Under Pauline truth the laws the govern us are the following ;

Justification

Reconciliation


Indwelling Holy Spirit


Eternal life
 
New nature


Grace of God , that is what the Dispensation that Paul is talking about .


 These are what is  not in the Old Testament  dan p
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Brother Jerry
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« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2011, 09:19:54 AM »

Quote
Hi Bother Jerry and even when I explained what  OIKONOMIA  means in the Greek  you stumble at what Paul means by it , so let me clarify for you .

 OIKOS means House .

 NOMOS means Law .

 Check VINE'S  and clear it up /

 So what does  house law's means and what i8s Paul talking about so , lets give an example first .

 Under the Law of Mo0se they had 613 laws that governed Israel , agreed ??

 Under Pauline truth the laws the govern us are the following ;

Justification

Reconciliation


Indwelling Holy Spirit


Eternal life
 
New nature


Grace of God , that is what the Dispensation that Paul is talking about .


 These are what is  not in the Old Testament  dan p

First off you have not explained anything.  This post is the FIRST mention of OIKONOMIA that you have used in this thread.  Which does not help your credibility any, nor does it do anything to futher explain your point.

Secondly you are not exactly correct in your definition of NOMOS.  It can be a law, but only loosely.  It is anything that is established by usage.  The Law of Moses was established by God.  NOMOS would be a tradition or routine, that is followed by obeying the law.  Always checking to make certain you have your wallet in your pocket as you buckle your seat belt is NOMOS.  It is something that is established because of the law.

And then you wrongfully attempt to put OIKOS and NOMOS together to make your meaning for OIKONOMIA which has it's own definition which is the management of a household.  And as mentioned when viewing the definition of the english word dispensation, the proper definition would be "the divine ordering of worldly affairs" and there is nothing different about that, God ordained it from the moment He created it.  It was always about faith, is still about faith. 

Your "under Pauline truth"  Sorry it is not Paul's truth, but Jesus' truth.  Paul merely speaks the same thing that Jesus spoke and that was foretold in the OT.   

Maybe instead of attempting to discuss one or two points without laying down a foundation of where you are coming from, you should start a different post and lay down your position completely.  Explain your dispensations and why you believe in each of those. 
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Sincerely
Brother Jerry

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I am like most fathers.  I, like most, want more for my children than I have.

I am unlike most fathers.  What I would like my children to have more of is crowns to lay at Jesus feet.
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« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2011, 08:34:03 PM »

 Hi BJ  , how is dispensation spelled in English in Eph 3:2 Huh?

 Is it  OIKONOMIA ?   

 I rest my case .  Maybe you need a new dictionary ??   dan p
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