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| | |-+  Do we still have free will ??
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Author Topic: Do we still have free will ??  (Read 576 times)
dan p
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« on: September 29, 2010, 07:44:57 PM »

Hi to all , and there are many believers that say that the bible teaches free will and yes I know that who soever will may come .

 And I see only two groups that had  " true free will " !!

 The first group were Lucifer and those that followed Lucifer .

 The other two that had honest , true free will , were Adam and Eve !

 Under Grace I do not see free will , but only election !!

 What say you Huh

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Shammu
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« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2010, 12:35:24 PM »

Dan there have been times when God did not allow free will to happen.

God hardened Pharaoh's heart, not by making the decision for him, but by forcing him to make the decision in the first place.  God said, "Let My people go!!"  Pharaoh said "No" but had no reason to really have to decide.  In other words, it wasn't a hard decision... until God began showing Pharaoh Who was Lord God. It's interesting. Each of the plagues took a direct stab at the heart of Egyptian theology. If their gods controlled these areas...what did it say when the God took control from them?  You see, Pharaoh wasn't just forced to make a decision about the Israelis. He was forced to make a decision about whether or not he believed, and believed in God. God didn't decide for him. He just made him decide. Pharaoh's heart was already against God, God just made him chose to harden it more when faced with the reality of God.

Exodus 9:34  And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his  heart, he and his servants.
Exodus 9:35  And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.

While the argument can be made that God himself caused Pharaoh to sin, we know that cannot be the case.... God is not capable of SIN. The truth is that the he in verse 34 above is Pharaoh himself. 

When Pharaoh asked for signs, he was not really seeking truth that Moses' God was a great God, he didn't believe it period and didn't expect miracles. But when he saw them, (the truth demonstrated) his heart became hard because of his mind was made up from the start. God will turn people over to their unbelief when they continually refuse Gods grace and truth over time. Their hearts harden because of their own unbelief to accept God. Not because God causes them to sin. 

Are you really seeking truth, or are you blind because you don't want to accept what scripture plainly says? God has not caused Pharaoh blindness, his own lack of faith prevents him from seeing truth. God did not force Adam to sin either. He simply gave Adam free will so that he could choose whether to serve God or himself. Adam chose to believe that God had kept some truth from him, some knowledge of good and evil, in-spite of all the greatness around him in the garden. So lacking faith (that God had provided all for him) he chose to test God by disobedience and see for himself, thus falling into sin for his lack of faith in believing all that God had said.

Without free will, man would indeed be forced by God to do Gods will. With free will, we can choose to freely accept God's truth which is plainly visible to us in the wonder of his creation, by faith alone! that God has provided a way for us to be free from our sin, through HIM.  By continually refusing this truth when it is made known to man, his heart will become hardened, because of his OWN unbelief, much the same way Pharaohs heart became hardened.

Not sure this will help you with your debate, but that's the easiest way to explain it. If God truly wanted to control man, we would all be serving him already wouldn't we? So his argument begins to fall apart right there. Throwing free will into the mix, allows those truly seeking truth to see it and accept it by faith. Those not interested in truth MUST harden their own hearts in order to deny it when its staring them in the face without excuse. The only way you deny truth, when you KNOW its truth is to harden your heart.

We get pretty caught up in our own "free will." I think it is best to remember that we are only as free as God allows us. He allows us to chose to obey sometimes, as well as to disobey. But not always.  Remember Abimelech?  God told him that He didn't allow him to sin against God. Not much freedom there. David asked God to keep him from his own presumptuous sins in the Psalms. Not much free willing going on there either.

We must remember that we are a part of His eternal plan, that He works with, or without our cooperation. In the end, He sovereignty takes both our obedience and our disobedience and works through that to conform us into the image of His Son, all the while teaching us the blessings of obedience. But it's still His plan and His working of that plan.

Sometimes we the servants need to remember, "Who's the Boss."
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dan p
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« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2010, 05:10:29 PM »

[quote author=Shammu l

Are you really seeking truth, or are you blind because you don't want to accept what scripture plainly says? God has not caused Pharaoh blindness, his own lack of faith prevents him from seeing truth. God did not force Adam to sin either. He simply gave Adam free will so that he could choose whether to serve God or himself. Adam chose to believe that God had kept some truth from him, some knowledge of good and evil, in-spite of all the greatness around him in the garden. So lacking faith (that God had provided all for him) he chose to test God by disobedience and see for himself, thus falling into sin for his lack of faith in believing all that God had said.

Hi Shammu , and I am always a seeker after truth , rightly divided .

 And if God violates any one will , then that will or decision was not yours ..

 Then in Isa 45:7, God creates  EVIL , but that is not true !

 I do not believe that` I am blind , unless the Lord has given you special revelation and I want those who have a better handle on "  free will  ".

 How can a man have  "free will "  when in this Age of Grace , But the natural man receiveth  NOT  the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him neither can he know them , because they are spiritually discerned .

 In this instance , does God violate , mans will ??
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