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Author Topic: Praying in the Holy Ghost  (Read 1326 times)
Sheep
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« on: March 14, 2010, 02:11:33 PM »


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nChrist
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« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2010, 02:39:44 PM »

I'm not actually seeking to debate, but posted here as the topic usually spawns a debate  Smiley

I'm one who prays in tongues...(and make no apologies for it). I've seen no prohibition for this topic here so I hope I'm not in forbidden territory.

Anyway...Jude 1:20

20. But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
(KJV)


It's clear to me what Jude is saying. And that this is God's eternal word, so for me the ole.."that was for then, but not for now" argument is off the table.
I'm really just wanting to know how this is read by those who deny tongues and other gifts. How do YOU "pray in the Holy Ghost"? what does that say to you?

or, there's Pauls statement in Eph 6:18

18. Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
(KJV)


Is all the praying a Christian does automatically "in the Spirit"?..."in the Holy ghost"? if so why specify this way Paul?...Jude? If all Christian praying is not automatically in the Spirit...then what do YOU do when it's time to pray in the Spirit?

I hope my tone here reflects just simple curiosity...I hold no judgement towards non "tonguers". LOL



There are many detailed debates and threads already on the forum that address this topic. I won't debate it, but someone else might want to.

Here's two threads that get to the heart of this matter quickly. If you want to view many other threads, just do a search for "Tongues".

SHOULD I SPEAK IN TONGUES
http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=21667.0

THE SUPERNATURAL GIFTS OF THE ACTS PERIOD
http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?topic=21648.0

My personal beliefs are simple:  1) the tongues spoken of in the Bible were real languages used at the time to spread the Gospel Of The Grace of God;  2)  The miracles, signs, and wonders of the Acts period were specifically given in that time frame because the Jews require a sign.

This is all I want to say on this matter except:

1 Corinthians 13:8-13 (KJV)  8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.   9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.   10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.   11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.   12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.   13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity.

The Perfect was the completed Holy Bible, and that was long ago. However - regarding miracles - God still does as He pleases in Heaven and on earth.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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nChrist
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« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2010, 04:56:19 PM »

Thank you Tom, I'll look at those threads.

So for you...is there any distinction between praying...and praying in the Spirit? OR ...What does praying "in the Spirit" mean to you? That is really the nature of my question. I'm very familiar with the doctrine you express on this...and would expect those points to be made in any debate about this topic...however I was simply looking for someone..who doesn't hold that tongues is a valid gift, to share their interpretation of "Praying in the Spirit"....truly interested...no strings attached.

My standard response :

1 Cor 14:15
15. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
(KJV)


Paul says I will "Pray"...not use a known language to spread the Gospel, but "pray" with the Spirit and I will "pray" with the understanding also....most definitely two kinds of praying (and one of them outside the understanding...and having nothing to do with the Gospel or the meetings)....not the same as the "one" instance of "we do hear them speak in our own tongues, the wonderful works of God"
 This teaching goes back many many years...I've always marveled at it...no offence.

I believe when "that which is perfect" comes...it will be in the clouds and with great glory...the Scriptures are a fine and yes, "perfect" thing, but there's something far more perfect yet to come  Smiley


As I said, I'm not interested in debating this, so this is all I will have to say on this.

1 Corinthians 14:15 KJV  15  What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.


Put the Scripture in context to find out what it means. Before I study the Holy Bible, I pray for help from the Holy Spirit of God. This particular Scripture addresses understanding - not gibberish in unknown languages. This particular Scripture would be one of the worst ones in trying to promote talking in unknown tongues. If I don't know how to pray or what to pray for, the Holy Spirit will also help me if I am humble and ask for it. If I pray in public, it will definitely be in the known tongue of those listening for the purpose of understanding. Again, this particular Scripture is a very poor choice for promoting the speaking in unknown tongues because it refers to the opposite - "Understanding". As A Christian, I do many things with the help of the Holy Spirit - but speaking gibberish tongues isn't one of them.

If I became a missionary and had the need to learn the language of the people I would minister to - it wouldn't be gibberish tongues - rather a known language. I would pray and ask God to help me learn the language of the people I would be ministering to. Gibberish serves nobody except the vanity of the person doing it. You should note that this portion of the Bible is actually the Apostle Paul scolding the church at Corinth for disturbances and disruptions in their worship services. Tongues was part of that disturbance and disruption.

I have nothing further to say on this, but someone else might. It would be helpful for you to read the Bible in context and pray before your studies that the Holy Spirit helps you in "Understanding".

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2010, 06:12:39 PM »

Joh 4:23  But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Joh 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Joh 3:12  If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Jer 24:7  And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

I will not debate the subject either. Brother Tom gave some links to some excellent threads on this subject that covers it quite completely. I will leave it at that but to say praying in the spirit has nothing to do with what language is being used (see verses above).

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« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2010, 07:35:12 PM »

Goodness!! What an amazing presumption! I'm fully assured of my understanding on these issues..I've studied them prayerfully for 40 years. I've even heard about the mysterious concept called "context"...LOLOL.  I was just trying to find out how others read the scriptures I quoted initially...that's all!

I guess I was hoping for an answer from someone like..."here's what I think it means to pray in the Spirit...."
I really am curious...honestly...it's still not been answered. My mistake for even mentioning tongues...or "gibberish" as it's referred to here LOL. 

But I see I've wandered into a very tightly closed loop here...a pulpit not a forum. Heh,  Even the links were to threads that were simply Tom's own conclusions...and where he was the only poster!!! And then It was assumed that I need to read the Bible...My oh my!! and that I should read it in context.  sheesh gentlemen!!

So...imagine the man who walks into the wrong restroom (forum in this case)...that's kind of what my face would reveal right now...and I'm quickly backing out and closing the door...oops.

May you worship in Spirit and in truth.

I gave you the same advice that I use myself. I pray before I study the Holy Bible, and I study the Scripture in context. This prevents all kinds of misunderstandings and helps one to determine what is true doctrine or false doctrine. Read all of Corinthians and try to determine what the purpose is. This will help you considerably.

We disagree, and I assume that you knew that before posting this. If you require agreement on the speaking in tongues before posting on a forum, you won't find that here. I think that requiring agreement on tongues is pretty sad, but that's up to you. Stay or leave. If you want to find a forum for agreement on tongues, I suggest that you do a Google search for:

Charismatic Forum
Pentecostal Forum

This forum is neither, but our common denominator for fellowship is Jesus Christ - not tongues. If you need agreement to be happy, you should have no problem in finding it.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2010, 12:59:12 AM »

Tom- Wow!  I am not sure whether I am more disturbed by the vitriol (under the guise of "love in Christ") or the arrogance displayed; which I also find offensive.  I had to double check to make sure I didn't accidentally find your personal webpage of private interpretation by mistake; rather than an open public forum to debate theology... but obviously the former is the case.  Your "personal belief" (and experience), contradicts 2Peter 1:20; that no prophesy of Scripture is of any private interpretation.  I am cautious whenever anyone assumes just simply because they have "prayed" (obviously with their understanding), that it automatically means they have the mind of Christ and full understanding of any Scripture. Fortunately, Scripture can also explain and interpret Scripture as well beyond "context."  Unless it is God-breathed by His Spirit, it is just natural minds failing to receive or discern anything spiritual.  (1Cor. 2:14) One has to twist pretty hard and take one Scripture out of context to argue that The Holy Bible (KJV? or later translations perhaps being more "perfect"?) are remotely what Paul is referring to... then knowledge would also have vanished away as well after 1611- 1884 (depending on which date the Holy Bible actually came into being in your opinion) if that were true. (See 1 Cor. 13:Cool

Roger- You won't debate but you will   use God's Word (out of context) to validate your personal opinion; is one of the methods the Pharisees perfected centuries ago.  Unfortunately, being "filled with the Holy Spirit" wasn't any of verses you bothered to give or any explanation of what you think any of those terms might mean either.

Brother Sheep, I don't get the impression that you "need agreement to be happy" or were looking for a fight either.  I find your question neither offensive or unworthy of "debate" in a "humble" searching of the Scriptures together just as the Bereans did; rather than the condescending and dismissive tone of "presumption" to which your genuine question remained unanswered... yet He has exposed and revealed the answer.  Truly, you would be one of those who our Yeshua spoke of that would have specific signs (tongues) following because you "believe" just as the early disciples believed.  The evidence of those who do not believe is also very apparent here. They will not speak in other tongues, or mysteries to God or pray in the Spirit or probably any of the other signs Jesus mentioned would follow those who believe.  I do know that "gibberish" is an unscriptural term that grieves the Holy Spirit in me because it is just an attempt to deny the Holy Spirit's power and one of the manifestations available to every true believer.  The presumptions and private interpretations abound both in and out of context; by twisting Scriptures; but I encourage you...  He (the Holy Spirit) has revealed Himself and the Truth concerning the charismatic gifts; but will not be found here or any agreement or "fellowship."  That which is precious should not be cast before those professing to be wise; who are always learning but never coming to the knowledge of Yeshua the Truth.  The only Christians uniting here are apparently those who want to preserve their philosophy but deny His power... please hold the door.

Your "gibberish" speaking brother Cheesy
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« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2010, 09:05:19 AM »

No one here has denied the power of God. In fact it is just as Brother Tom said, "God still does as He pleases in Heaven and on earth". As for the verses that I posted you are as Nicodemus, unable to come to the knowledge and wisdom of what Jesus was saying. If you had you would not be saying they were out of context.

With your concept of the meaning of 2Peter 1:20 it lays open scripture for any slight of wind interpretation that anyone wishes to place on it. It is through your 'experience' that you base your interpretation of scripture. That does not necessarily make it scriptural for even the pagans speak in tongues. It is interesting that you use the Pharisees when it is you that are more like them in actions, putting on a show and not understanding what Jesus was telling them.

As Brother Tom also said, "If you want to find a forum for agreement on tongues, I suggest that you do a Google search for:

Charismatic Forum
Pentecostal Forum

This forum is neither, but our common denominator for fellowship is Jesus Christ - not tongues. If you need agreement to be happy, you should have no problem in finding it."

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« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2010, 12:37:28 PM »

1 Corinthians 14:18-19 KJV  18  I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:  19  Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.


Confusion is a sad thing, especially when it's for the vanity of men. If one looks at the missionary journeys of the Apostle Paul, one would quickly see Paul's need for other languages (tongues). However, the Apostle Paul's "tongues" were known languages - not the gibberish of those he was scolding for disturbing worship services. Scolding those at Corinth is not any private interpretation, rather clearly what the Scripture says. All one needs to do is read it in context. The Apostle Paul presented a case for order in worship services and "Understanding" - not disruption and confusion.

Finally, I must state that the Holy Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek - not English. So, The Holy Bible was completed long before King James took his first breath.

1 Corinthians 14:27-40 KJV  27  If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.  28  But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.  29  Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.  30  If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.  31  For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.  32  And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.  33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.  34  Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.  35  And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.  36  What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?  37  If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.  38  But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.  39  Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.  40  Let all things be done decently and in order.
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