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Author Topic: THE RAPTURE! Everything You Wanted To Know  (Read 18442 times)
Petro
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« Reply #60 on: March 16, 2004, 01:13:19 AM »

NOT ONE SCRIPTURE?
Quote
posted by the crusader at repoly#65
Some who hold to the post-trib Rapture position say that there is not one verse of Scripture which explicitly affirms the Rapture of the Church before the tribulation.

This is true, and there is a scripture that places Jesus second coming after the Great Tribulation (Mat 24:29)

Quote
But why need there be? There is not one verse of Scripture which explicitly affirms that our Lord was baptized before His temptation by the devil,

This is false there is scripture that confirms that Jesus was tempted by the devil after He was Baptized.

Note:

Mk 1
9  And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
10  And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
11  And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
12  And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.
13  And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.

Quote
or that He was crowned with thorns before He was crucified,

Another false assumption;

Mk 15, also tells He was crowned with thorns, before His crucifixtion.

17  And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head,
18  And began to salute him, Hail, King of the Jews!
19  And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him.
20  And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him.
21  And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross.
22  And they bring him unto the place Golgotha, which is, being interpreted, The place of a skull.
23  And they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh: but he received it not.
24  And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.
25  And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

Quote
Yet there is abundant Scriptural proof for all these and they are accepted as the truth of the Word of God.

This is true, but how does any of this prove a pre trib rapture......it doesn't..pure and simple.

Since Mat 24:29, makes indelibly clear that Jesus return to earth is after the great tribulation, it is up to those who preach a pre trib rapture to prove there will be one, before the tribulation, pre trib is not the same as mid trib, although many who subscribe to the pre trib will leave the dcoor open for perhaps a mid trib viewpoint.  Which simply points out their weak understanding of the biblical teaching of the pre wrath rapture.


Blessings,

Petro
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The Crusader
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« Reply #61 on: March 16, 2004, 04:05:10 AM »

Petro I agree with you a lot on other subjects, but on this subject you get a F-
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Petro
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« Reply #62 on: March 16, 2004, 11:04:59 PM »

Well of course, I just showed you there are scriptures which you said were not there,

ARE they there or not??.

And besides you have already determined (in spite of what scripture, says) the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the Gospel.

What else can be said........nothing.

But I love you anyhow...Bro.


God Bless You,

Petro
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« Reply #63 on: March 20, 2004, 12:37:51 AM »

The fatal mistake the translators made was in failing to take into consideration the definite article before the word apostasia which appears in the Greek text of

The fatal mistake the translators made Huh

Hmm... now where translating the Bible to fit in a Pre-Trib Rapture? Why dont this guy retranslate it all to suit himself better.. I wonder how he translates...Let no man deceive you.
Oops i spoke to soon  Grin He has one for that too!

Ahh well time will tell  

Bless you all





« Last Edit: March 20, 2004, 01:17:47 AM by AJ » Logged
Petro
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« Reply #64 on: March 21, 2004, 12:30:33 AM »

Quote
"The fatal mistake the translators made was in failing to take into consideration the definite article before the word apostasia which appears in the Greek text of Eberhard Nestle, in that of his son, Erwin Nestle, and in that of Westcott and Hort. A. T. Robertson in his monumental work, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, asserts that the translators of the A. V., under the influence of the Vulgate, dealt with the Greek article in a loose and inaccurate way (p. 756).

The definite aricle is not where the problem lies, it is in mans interpretation of  the very word apopstasia.

If Westcott and Hort agree with anything, I would be very careful to put any wait on what is said, without double checking it, with other sources.

The Pre Tribbers actually use this word apostasia to mean  rapture, so instead of apostasy at 2 Th 2:3, they have rapture occuring before the man of sin is revealed, speculating that the sign which reveals him, is his signing of some document with Israel.

My question is what about the apostasy??

When does that happen, clearly this is a sign of Jesus imminent return, I guess there is no apostasy first{/b] (falling away).

It doesn't make any sense.........much confusion in this camp.

Petro

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« Reply #65 on: March 21, 2004, 08:45:51 AM »

Here is a link to some pre-trib rapture verses...

www.bibleprophesy.org/rapture.htm
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Petro
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« Reply #66 on: March 22, 2004, 11:00:36 AM »

The Pre Tribulation rapture hinges on ones interpretation of the Greek Word Apostasia #646, pre tribbers, define as departure/rapture, while the Greek Dictionary of the NT, defines it as: a departure from the truth, apostasy, falling away, forsake.

In addressing the error at 2 Th 2:1-4, Paul, refers to;

2 Tim 2
8 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

This because of false teachers in the church (just as there are today),

"Although the day of the Lord starts with the rapture, the presence of the Day of the Lord is wrath, darkness, trouble, and the tribulation.  (Zeph 1:15) The tribulations described in 2 Thess 1 were erroneously thought to be the tribulations of the day of the Lord. "

Verse 1, the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, is the same day of Christ at verse 2.

That "day" cannot be in progress unless the "falling away" (Greek apostasia) as its first event and the revealing of the man of lawlessness as the next distinct event have come to pass.

While many have fallen away from the faith ever since spostolic times (Heb 3:12, 1 Tim 4:1, 2 Tim 3:1-9, 4:3-4), the particular event Paul refers to here is the final and complete apostasy.  

This will be the deliberate and official denial of the doctrine of Christ Jesus and worldwide suppression of all organized chritianity.  

As long as there are true believers  on earth openly and publicly  worshipping the Lord Jesus Christ together, on the earth, the great apostasia has not begun.

But when great persecution begins, watch therfore, "for your  redemption draweth nigh."  (Jas Lk 21:Cool


Blessings, to all who believe His Word.

This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.  Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
In your patience possess ye your souls. And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


These are Jesus's own words.


Blessings,




Petro

« Last Edit: March 22, 2004, 11:29:44 AM by Petro » Logged

Bronzesnake
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« Reply #67 on: March 23, 2004, 01:17:07 AM »

 The following is By Dr. Jack Van Impe.

  "And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain, ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."
 
- I Corinthians 15:14-19


  The Apostle Paul said it as well as it can be said. One cannot overstate the profound importance of the reality of the Resurrection of our Lord Jesus to our faith as Christians. If Jesus had not risen from the dead as the Bible states, then all who had and have fallen asleep (died in Christ) are perished and our hope for eternal life is gone. If Jesus had remained in the grave so would we - but praise God He is risen.

  Think about what happened when Christ rose from the grave? What was left behind? All they found in that sepulcher was our Lord's grave clothes. What's the significance of that?

  In I Corinthians 15:23, it says, Christ is the "firstfruits" of the Resurrection. The first fruits. Isn't that plain? Then in the text it explains that afterwards, or later, "they that are Christ's at his coming" will follow. It's there in God's Word. What it means is that since His clothes were left behind, ours will be also. Those that belong to Christ at the time of His coming will be bodily translated into heaven just as Jesus was - leaving behind the rags of sin for new robes of righteousness.

  When Jesus Christ comes to call us home at the Rapture, He will come exactly as He left. How did He leave? He left bodily into the clouds. Acts 1:9 says, "And when he (Jesus) had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go.'"

  In other words, if I can prove that He went bodily, then I don't have to go any further to prove that He's coming back bodily. Why? Because the Bible says He's coming back exactly as He left. How did He leave? After spending three days in the grave, He rose and stood on the earth in His new body. In Luke 24:39, He says to some of His followers, "Behold, my hands and my feet. It is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." In verse 41, He says, "Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them."

  This is Christ in His new resurrected body - a body that could be seen, a body that could be touched, a body that could partake of food. It's a picture of what we will have at the time of the Rapture. How quickly will it happen? "Behold, I show you a mystery," the Bible tells us in I Corinthians 15:51-54. "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible (the dead) must put on incorruption, and this mortal (the living) must put on immortality."

  This is going to be a glorious event. We shall be changed to be like Jesus. The Psalmist said in chapter 17, verse 15: "I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness." In Philippians 3:21, Paul says that God will change our vile bodies - not leave them behind, change them - that they may be fashioned "like unto his glorious body." In I John 3:2, it says that when we see Jesus, we shall be like Him, "for we shall see him as he is."

  Did you know that Jesus wasn't the first person to be "raptured" out of this earth? In fact, when the Rapture occurs, it will be the fourth one documented in the Bible. The first was Enoch in Genesis 5:24: And Enoch walked with God; and he was not; for God took him. In Hebrews 11:5, Paul adds, that Enoch was translated by faith so that he should not see death. He was "raptured" - caught up in the twinkling of an eye, without dying. The second documented "rapture" is Elijah in II Kings 2:11. Elijah was caught up by a whirlwind into heaven. He, too, never saw death, foreshadowing what we believers will experience on the day the Lord catches us up in the clouds. Then, of course, Jesus was "raptured" away in Acts 1:9: "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight."

  When Elijah was caught up, angels and chariots of fire came to get him. I personally believe that, in a similar way, angelic hosts may come after those of us who ascend in the Rapture. Why? Because every believer - not just Elijah - has his own ministering angel. They could come to whisk us home in the twinkling of an eye. Luke 16:22 provides a precedent for us: "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom."

  Is all this something that should frighten us? Excited, yes. Frightened, no. So many people today are facing the approach of the millennium with dread - with fear and foreboding. There is an anticipation - even in the secular media - that we may be nearing the end of the world. There is anxiety and hopelessness everywhere. The world seems to get just a bit uglier every day as crime increases and wars break out and immorality reigns.
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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #68 on: March 23, 2004, 01:17:46 AM »

Continued...

This is not the way believers should feel - especially in this season when we are remembering what Jesus did for us on the cross of Calvary and how He victoriously defeated the last enemy, death, I Corinthians 15:26. What could be more exciting and encouraging than the idea that some of us will never die? In Titus 2:13, Paul calls the Rapture our "blessed hope." In I Thessalonians 4:18, he says, "Comfort one another with these words." "Comfort one another," he says, not frighten one another.

  I've got news for you. The world is not - I repeat, not - coming to an end. The world is not going away in the year 2000, nor even a thousand years after that. God has shown me something in the last year to change my mind concerning this subject. It is clear from scripture that the world will not even end after Christ's 1,000-year reign on earth. The world will never end. Isaiah 45:17 is unequivocal: It's a world without end. "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen," Paul writes in Ephesians 3:21.

  Skeptics will no doubt point to Matthew 24:3 which states: "As he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" Let's recall that the New Testament was written in Greek. The Greek translation of that last world is "age," not "world." Once again, the world is not coming to an end. But this epoch, this age, is closing. And, yes, the advent of the year 2000 does have some significance. Why? Because it could conceivably be the ending of the age of grace and beginning of the millennial age when the King of kings and Lord of lords returns (compare Matthew 24:3 and Matthew 25:34 for proof).

  Long before Christ was born, the Jewish rabbis taught a six-day theory about the future of the world. They believed that the world would face several eras lasting a total of 6,000 years, from Adam's creation until the Messiah would come. This theory was based, in part, on Psalm 90:4: "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday." Since God created the world in six days and rested on the seventh day, they reasoned, the world would go on for 6,000 years followed by a 1,000-year millennial "rest" period presided over by the Lord himself.

  Think about this. From the creation of Adam until the birth of Christ a period of 4,000 years - or four days passed. From Christ's time on earth until now represents approximately another 2,000 years - or two days. This total of six days is just one more reason to believe that Jesus could return very, very soon.

  Six-day periods, followed by remarkable transitions, have been important throughout scripture. Look at Matthew 17:1, for example. "And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And he was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light." Jesus was giving them a preview of what it would be like when He comes back as King of Kings and Lord of Lords as described in Revelation 19:16. When they came down from that mountain, He told them not to tell anyone of these things until after His Resurrection.

  Not only did the ancient Jewish rabbis teach this six-day theory, but so did the church during the first 300 years of Christendom. The church leaders based their belief on II Peter 3:8: "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." St. Victorinus, the bishop of Petah, wrote a commentary on the book of Revelation in 270 AD. He said he saw another great and wonderful sign - "Seven angels having the last seven plagues, for in them is completed the indignation of God. And these shall be in the last time when the church shall have gone out of the midst." In other words, St. Victorinus was talking about the Rapture! This teaching is not a present day innovation but a doctrinal statement dating back 17 centuries to St. Victorinus and 20 centuries to Jesus and Paul.

  In the 16th century there were those expressing assurance of the Rapture. Hugh Latimer, burned at the stake for his faith in 1555, said: "It may come in my days, old as I am, or in my children's days, the saints shall be taken up to meet Christ in the air and so shall come down with him again." Joseph Medde, the great 16th century literalist understood I Thessalonians 4:13-18 to teach the catching up of the saints and even used the word "rapture." So this is not some new idea.

  However, understand this: The Rapture is not taught in Matthew, Mark and Luke. You can find it twice in the Gospel of John. Any other time you are reading about Christ's return in the gospels, it is not referring to the Rapture. Instead, these are references to the second phase of Christ's return - when He physically comes back to earth to rule over it after a seven-year Tribulation period and it's called, in theological circles, "the Revelation" or the revealing of Christ upon earth.

  Where are the two Rapture texts in the Gospel of John? John 14:1-3: "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." This is not His coming to the earth. This is the point at which He receives us unto Himself at the great Rapture - the snatching away - to be with Him in heaven as the seven years of torment occur on earth. The second reference is in John 11:25,26. I quoted this passage for years but didn't really understand it. Christ said: "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

  Jesus is contrasting those who experience death and live again ("for the dead in Christ rise first," I Thessalonians 4:16) with those who never experience death (because "we which are alive and remain" are caught up without dying, I Thessalonians 4:17).

  It's a fact that God always spares His own from judgment. When the horrendous worldwide flood came in Noah's day, Noah told those who were prepared to COME INTO the ark, Genesis 7:7. When the judgment fell on Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19:14, the angels told Lot and his family to COME OUT of the city. Notice this trilogy: In Noah's day, it was COME IN. In Lot's day it was COME OUT. In our day, it will be COME UP, Revelation 4:1.

But, of course, as always, only a select group will be saved - rescued from the worst period in human history. During the Tribulation period that follows the Rapture, all hell is going to break loose on planet earth. It will be a furious time because the hindering power of the Holy Spirit will be temporarily removed. With all the Bible tells us about how we should live on earth, there are almost no instructions about how to prepare for this post-Rapture period. Our newest video, "Left Behind: The Final Warning!," can help. More than anything else, it can serve as a survival manual for those who fail to come to Christ before He comes for His Church and Bride. Make sure all of your loved ones - saved and unsaved, get a copy of this survival video.

  How bad will things get? In Revelation 9:18, it indicates that a third of mankind will be killed by fire, smoke and brimstone. That, my friends, is nothing less than a first century way of explaining all-out thermonuclear warfare. Imagine. There are nearly 6 billion people on the earth today. If one-third are killed, that's a holocaust representing 2 billion lives. But that's just the beginning. In Revelation 6:8, the rider on the fourth horse brings with him a worldwide plague of disease that causes another fourth of humanity to perish. That's another billion. So half the human race will be annihilated in this relatively brief period. This pictures the judgment predicted by Jesus in Matthew 24:41 and 42.

  As terrible as that fate sounds, there is still hope for those left behind. I used to believe and teach that if one hadn't accepted the Lord before the Rapture, all was lost. I was wrong. As long as one is alive there's hope. Joel chapter 2 and Acts chapter 2 describe the calamitous tribulation period. In the midst of all the carnage and destruction Joel 2:32 and Acts 2:21 states: "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

  There's always hope in Jesus. That's what we need to reflect upon, not only during this victorious resurrection season, but all year long.
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Petro
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« Reply #69 on: March 24, 2004, 03:16:27 AM »

Quote
posted by bronzesanke as reply #

 In I Corinthians 15:23, it says, Christ is the "firstfruits" of the Resurrection. The first fruits. Isn't that plain? Then in the text it explains that afterwards, or later, "they that are Christ's at his coming" will follow. It's there in God's Word. What it means is that since His clothes were left behind, ours will be also. Those that belong to Christ at the time of His coming will be bodily translated into heaven just as Jesus was - leaving behind the rags of sin for new robes of righteousness.

bronzesanke,

This message you have posted, of course is on the rapture, and they way this person sets this up, is by this paraghraph, but it is at the 2d page (the 2d paragraph that the bomb shell  is dropped, on the reader.

"The world will never end."  Isa 54:17, says nothing of the sort; and actually this is not altogether true, this world perish in  fire, when God rolls up as a scroll, it is the New World that will never end.

However, a verse came to mind as I read this message, with reagrd to the 2d paragraph of the 1st page;

Col 2
10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15  And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Now there at verse 12, is the resurrection, of which we who are saved are partakers of.

And he, who has part in the frist resurrection, he shall not be hurt by the second death.  (Rev 2:11, 20:6)

Blessings,

Petro
Whats wrong with it, is that  
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« Reply #70 on: March 24, 2004, 11:50:54 AM »

Hello Petro.

 Here's a quote from you...

"This message you have posted, of course is on the rapture, and they way this person sets this up, is by this paraghraph, but it is at the 2d page (the 2d paragraph that the bomb shell  is dropped, on the reader.

"The world will never end."  Isa 54:17, says nothing of the sort; and actually this is not altogether true, this world perish in  fire, when God rolls up as a scroll, it is the New World that will never end."

You are, of course, right Petro...Isa 54:17 says nothing of the sort, but the verse which is actually quoted does...Isa 45:17

Isa 45:17 [But] Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.  

As far as "this is not altogether true, this world perish in  fire, when God rolls up as a scroll, it is the New World that will never end."
 I think you're splitting hairs on this one Petro. When people think of the end of the world, they wrongly believe the earth will be completely destroyed never to be again, and some believe we are wisked off to Heaven somewhere in outerspace where it now resides. However, the Bible is clear, we will dwell on earth, and God will be here with us...

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
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« Reply #71 on: March 24, 2004, 12:24:08 PM »

Hello again Petro my brother.

Here is a quote from you...


"However, a verse came to mind as I read this message, with reagrd to the 2d paragraph of the 1st page;

"Col 2
10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15  And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Now there at verse 12, is the resurrection, of which we who are saved are partakers of.

And he, who has part in the frist resurrection, he shall not be hurt by the second death.  (Rev 2:11, 20:6)

Blessings,

Petro
Whats wrong with it, is that"

 This in no way disprooves the Rapture Petro. Once you understand what is being described.  

You pointed out verse 12..."12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him  through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

Why does it say also? This points out the fact that others are risen which did not die, that is a clear cut distinction, otherwise why use the term also? why not just say "burried with Him in baptism, are risen with Him?

 You know that many people are saved by Jesus from the time He lived until the day He returns. Obviously many thousands, even millions of believers are already dead going back two thousand years until present day. Those are "the dead in Christ" from the following verses...

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  

The dead are Raptured first...


 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  

 Then those of us who are still alive and remain remain where?...here on earth. Are caught up with them With who? the dead in Christ! this is the Rapture! It doesn't get more plain than this.

This verse describes both the dead and living being caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air!!

This is not the second coming...Jesus is not depicted returning on a white horse here, nor do His feet touch the Mount of Olives. He decends from Heaven with a shout In other words, He is calling His elect. And we meet Him in the clouds, in the air. The final sentence reads...


"and so shall we ever be with the Lord"

That is why we are depicted in Rev 19:14 returning to earth with Jesus If we weren't Raptured up to Heaven in the first place how can we be returning to earth with Jesus?

If we were to be left to face the horrors of the Great Tribulation why would we be asked to do the following...


1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.  

It would seem a cruel joke if not for the Rapture wouldn't it Petro?

Jesus loves us!!
Bronzesnake
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The Crusader
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« Reply #72 on: March 29, 2004, 05:42:28 AM »

From: http://www.ephesians3-9.com/view/?pageID=133525
     
What Happens To Those Who Are LEFT BEHIND? Part 1


The creators of this site expect a pretribulational Rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ. We also know that many have been led to hear, understand, and believe the Gospel of the grace of God through the reading of these books. For that we are thankful!

However, there is a valid concern regarding the first book of the series which has been voiced by some in the Church. It is a concern we share. Below we make some points from the text of the novel; italics within story text are added for emphasis.

In chapters ten and eleven of Left Behind, we are introduced to Bruce Barnes, an assistant pastor of the church that had been attended by the raptured wife and son of unbeliever Rayford Steele, one of the book's main characters. Talking over the phone, Barnes informs Steele that,

"Nearly every member and regular attender of this church is gone. I am the only person on the staff who remains" (p. 126).

Steele and his unbelieving daughter Chloe meet Barnes at the church. Speaking of himself Barnes says,

"A few people [church-members who were left behind] wanted to argue with God, trying to tell us that they really had been believers and should have been taken with the others, but we all knew the truth. We had been phony. There wasn't a one of us who didn't know what it meant to be a true Christian. We knew we weren't and that we'd been left behind" (p. 142).

Steele asks Barnes how a pastor could miss the Rapture. Pointing out that Steele's wife had been a true believer, Barnes confesses,

"I lied...I had a real racket going...and I bought into it. Down deep, way down deep, I knew better...Jesus Christ returned for His true family, and the rest of us were left behind" (pp. 143-144).

Now here's where the problem really begins, in our opinion. A few pages later, after Chloe hears the Gospel but rejects Barnes' offer to "pray with you and lead you in how to talk to God about this" [an unbiblical invitation which is a whole other problem] Barnes says,

"I believe God has forgiven me" (p. 147), later saying that he "repented of [his] sins and truly received Christ," referring to himself as "a brand-new Christian" (p. 161).

The presumably now-saved Barnes gives Steele a videotape the raptured senior pastor made for just this occasion. Speaking of the Rapture itself, the pastor says something very odd:

"You may wonder why this has happened. Some believe this is the judgment of God on an ungodly world. Actually, that is to come later. Strange as this may sound to you, this [the Rapture] is God's final effort to get the attention of every person who has ignored or rejected Him. He is allowing now a vast period of trial and tribulation to come to you who remain. He has removed His church from a corrupt world...I believe God's purpose in this [the Rapture] is to allow those who remain to take stock of themselves and leave their frantic search for pleasure and self-fulfillment, and turn to the Bible for truth and to Christ for salvation" (p. 154).

Later the videotape says to the left behind, "The point now is, you have another chance. Don't miss it" (p. 156).

They are warned of the coming Antichrist, too:

"Pray that God will help you. Receive His salvation gift right now. And resist the lies and efforts of the Antichrist, who is sure to rise up soon. Remember, he will deceive many. Don't be counted among them" (p. 156).

This section of Left Behind is, we believe, the fundamental problem of this book.

Like LaHaye, we are looking for a pretribulational Rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ. But there is a VERY important biblical fact that an unbeliever reading this book should be aware of, but which Left Behind doesn't tell them. We ask two questions to illustrate this point:

1) Who does the Bible say will be left behind at the Rapture?

2) Does the Bible give hope of salvation to those left behind at the Rapture?

These two questions can, we believe, be answered by one passage of Scripture. That passage is found in the second letter Paul wrote to the Thessalonian believers:


"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the secret of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let [restrains], until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: even Him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12).

This passage is relevant because it deals with three major events depicted in Left Behind: the Rapture of the Church; what happens to those left behind at the Rapture, and the start of the Tribulation/rise of Antichrist.

This passage seems to indicate that those who "received not the love of truth that they might be saved" (and so be part of the Raptured Church) but rather "had pleasure in unrighteousness" will be left behind at the Rapture. This is the fate of Pastor Barnes, and is biblically accurate as far as it goes.

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The Crusader
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« Reply #73 on: March 29, 2004, 05:43:26 AM »

From: http://www.ephesians3-9.com/view/?pageID=133525
   
What Happens To Those Who Are LEFT BEHIND? Part 2


But then Left Behind goes into potentially grievous error. As the rest of the passage teaches, those who had heard and understood the Gospel of the grace of God before the Rapture, but rejected it (as Barnes had), would not be merely "left behind" for their unbelief. Rather, God will also send them "strong delusion" so that they will obey Antichrist, which will eliminate any second chance at salvation:

"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, 'If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name' " (Revelation 14:9-11).

Thus it appears that professing Christians (outwardly religious folks who knowingly rejected the Gospel prior to the Rapture) not only cannot be saved after the Rapture, but will be caused by God to keep believing lies; this will invariably lead them to obey Antichrist and take his unforgivable mark upon themselves. At what point God sends this "strong delusion" the passage does not state. But given that Gospel rejectors will receive it, it is doubtful that Barnes would be the humble, repentant, newly-saved sinner Left Behind makes him out to be.

So to answer our questions:

1) Who does the Bible say will be left behind at the Rapture of the Church?

All the unsaved; i.e., those who never trusted Christ, and so were never members of His Body, the one true Church.

2) Does the Bible give hope of salvation to those left behind at the Rapture?


It would have to depend on what they had heard of Christ. If they'd never heard of Him, then surely God in His grace will see to it that they hear of Him during the Tribulation. If they had understood the Gospel but rejected it, then Paul's answer seems to be a definite "no," especially in light of the delusion sent them by God as judgment for their unbelief.

It should be pointed out, however, that there is an alternative view which bears consideration. Pastor Paul Sadler, president of the Berean Bible Society, has written a book entitled The Triumph of His Grace: Preparing Ourselves for the Rapture. Pastor Sadler observes,

"Some understand from Paul's words in II Thessalonians 2:8-12 that those who reject the grace of God in this dispensation will not be given a second chance in the coming Day of the Lord" (p. 104).

He believes that this view is without merit:

"As we pass from the dispensation of Grace to the dispensation of Divine Government, the change is going to be abrupt. There will not be a transition period at the close of this dispensation as there was at the beginning of it. When the last member is placed into the Body of Christ and the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, the gospel fo the grace of God will be proclaimed no longer. Following our homegoing, God will reinstate the kingdom gospel at the dawn of the tribulation:

'And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come' (Matt. 24:14).

"In this context, then, the truth that men refuse to receive that they might be saved is not the gospel of grace, rather it is the kingdom gospel. It is our firm conviction that those who are left behind after our departure will be given another chance to be saved in the age to come. This is in keeping with the very nature of God who is rich in mercy and '...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance' (II Peter 3:9). In all probability, the majority of those who fail to receive Christ under grace will continue in unbelief. Nevertheless, the door of salvation will remain open, although it will be much more difficult for a Gentile to be saved since the terms of the kingdom gospel are far more involved" (p. 111-112).

Pastor Sadler is correct that the deciding factor on which of these two views is the correct one depends on the dispensational context of Paul's warning; i.e., to which Gospel message was Paul referring? Was he saying that those who refuse today's Gospel of the grace of God (thus missing the Rapture) will go into the Tribulation unsaved and unsavable? Or was Paul referring to people yet future to us, who during the Tribulation period will refuse the salvation message of that day, the Gospel of the Kingdom, and will be compelled to accept Antichrist?

I still lean toward the more traditional interpretation of this passage, but must agree with a statement made by David Reagan of Lamb and Lion Ministries, in a review of Left Behind:

"This passage [2 Thess. 2] seems to teach that people who have rejected the truth before the Rapture will continue to do so. Because of this passage, I cannot say with absolute confidence that those who have rejected the Gospel before the Rapture will have the possibility of accepting it afterwards. I hope Tim LaHaye is right, but I would not want to give such people any false hope" (The Lamplighter, Jan-Feb 2001).

I, too, sincerely hope Tim LaHaye and Paul Sadler are correct. But like Reagan, I would not want to give false hope to those who today hear and understand the Gospel they read in Left Behind or elsewhere, but put off believing it "until later."

I can remember a time in my pre-Christian life when, in exchange for my grossly sinful lifestyle, I gladly put off even thinking about salvation because I was confident I'd have plenty of chances to take care of it "later."

I can recall thinking thoughts along the lines of, "I know some hard-core Christians...I'll wait to see if this Rapture thing happens; if it does, THEN I'll get right with God! And if it doesn't happen, I'll just keep on keeping on."

To this day I distinctly recall occassions when I was unexpectedly exposed to the Gospel, only to deliberately and immediately force it from my mind.

I don't know about you, fellow Christian, but I can still remember what NOT wanting to hear ANYTHING about Christ felt like! Believe me: I DID think these thoughts, and this was years before Left Behind was written. But by the grace of God I did not die before "later" came!

And that is the reason I believe Tim LaHaye's teachings on this facet of the Rapture are - potentially - eternally tragic. Again, I do hope that those who hear and understand the Gospel of grace, but miss the Rapture due to unbelief, will have a second chance to be saved during the Tribulation. But to imply, as Left Behind does, that unbelievers can bet their eternal destiny on the hope of "salvation later" when it is not 100% clear that Scripture supports it -- and even though they could still miss the Rapture by dying before it comes! -- is not a position in which I would feel comfortable placing myself.

http://www.ephesians3-9.com/view/?pageID=133525
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Petro
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« Reply #74 on: March 29, 2004, 08:33:29 AM »

Hello again Petro my brother.

Here is a quote from you...


"However, a verse came to mind as I read this message, with reagrd to the 2d paragraph of the 1st page;

"Col 2
10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15  And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Now there at verse 12, is the resurrection, of which we who are saved are partakers of.

And he, who has part in the frist resurrection, he shall not be hurt by the second death.  (Rev 2:11, 20:6)

Blessings,

Petro
Whats wrong with it, is that"

 This in no way disprooves the Rapture Petro. Once you understand what is being described.  

You pointed out verse 12..."12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him  through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

Why does it say also? This points out the fact that others are risen which did not die, that is a clear cut distinction, otherwise why use the term also? why not just say "burried with Him in baptism, are risen with Him?

 You know that many people are saved by Jesus from the time He lived until the day He returns. Obviously many thousands, even millions of believers are already dead going back two thousand years until present day. Those are "the dead in Christ" from the following verses...

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  

The dead are Raptured first...


 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  

 Then those of us who are still alive and remain remain where?...here on earth. Are caught up with them With who? the dead in Christ! this is the Rapture! It doesn't get more plain than this.

This verse describes both the dead and living being caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air!!

This is not the second coming...Jesus is not depicted returning on a white horse here, nor do His feet touch the Mount of Olives. He decends from Heaven with a shout In other words, He is calling His elect. And we meet Him in the clouds, in the air. The final sentence reads...


"and so shall we ever be with the Lord"

That is why we are depicted in Rev 19:14 returning to earth with Jesus If we weren't Raptured up to Heaven in the first place how can we be returning to earth with Jesus?

If we were to be left to face the horrors of the Great Tribulation why would we be asked to do the following...


1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.  

It would seem a cruel joke if not for the Rapture wouldn't it Petro?

Jesus loves us!!
Bronzesnake


BZ,

Nice to hear from you again..

You didn't make any sense to me on your previous post so, that is why I didn't answer it.

However on this one, you do make some sense of it.

The problem is that you mis interpret the word also at verse 12, in the original text the word is kai normally translated and, and by its use, one can understand what is being said;

12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

It is relative to being buried with Him in baptism, (not water baptism) but baptism with the Holy Spirit, (as promised at Jhn 1:33-34), thus the word also, it has nothing to do with others.

It is all by faith in the operation of what God has done.

And truly this is a matter of fact in this present life, for all who have been baptized with the Holy Spirit, without human hands.

Now how does this relate to your teaching, which says;

Christians can lose their salvation??

Must one be, unbaptised by with Holy Spirit, and be unresurrected, by faith in the operation of God???

It doesn't make any sense, ...............or does it??


By the way, I believe in a rapture, I am not necessarily convinced it is a Pre Trib event. It is the wrath of God, which we have been promised to be kept from, not tribulation, there is a difference .

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Christians are not of the world.

It seems to me christians seek the best of both worlds.....


Christians that believe in a Prer Trib, do very little in the way of evangelization, they would rather leave that task up to others, and send money, or join a prayer group for missions(not that there is anything wrong with either) but, if you saw ten christians carrying a telephone pole, nine on one end and one on the other, which end would you run to and help??

Gods not interested in our $ or prayers to HIM to send others, He desires us to wholly give of ourselves, to the work of the ministry of givinbg out His Word.

Blessings,


Petro
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