a christian wouldn't say\do that!

[ravenloche]

How many of you in your walk with the Lord have heard from
someone "I thought you was a christian: a christian wouldn't
do, or say something like that!"

Now before you start getting all irate on me, I am not refering
to those times that we have fallen short of the glory of the
Lord; but rather; I refer to those time that you know, that
you know, that you know you are in the center of God's will
for your life(even though it requires you to step outside of the
accepted norm!)

Let me present to you a good example out of my own life and
ministry. I have been a minister for over 25 years(not always
a perfect one, but thankfully a forgiven one). There have been
several occations when I have gone into the very pits of hell
ie-bars, clubs,and shock , shock a few strip joints since I have
been save. People have seen me coming out of them, and
immediately assume that I am out of the will of our savior, and
that I have backslidden. Nothing in this case could be farther
from the truth. In each case that I was within the wall of the
above type establishments it was at the unction of the Holy
Ghost, and I have led souls as it were from the very pits of
hell itself. Oh but a christian would never go there!
Luke 14:23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
Do you think this verse meant go look in the church seats, and
bring them to the alter? We must go where the souls are if we
want to see those souls be set free!
In another instance I was speaking at a meeting, when I was
asked by a young man: "preacher, can I smoke dope and still
serve God?"  You could have heard a pin drop on shag carpet
when I answered him with the world YES!

OH MY WORD! A CHRISTIAN WOULD NEVER SAY SOMETHING
LIKE THAT!

But now hear the rest of my answer: "You can do anything
that you want to do, and serve God, but if you are serious
about serving Jesus, do no be surprized if your want tos
begin to change."

 Our father has promised us that he would give us the very
desires of our heart, do you think that this meant that he
would only give us what we wanted, or maybe that he would
begin to place certain desires within our heart as well.

Too long we as christians have allowed ourselves to be placed
within a certain sterotype, a mold if you will, that makes the
world comfortable with us. I do not intent to stay within that
mold! I want people to know who I serve, I want people to
feel conviction for their sin when I am around(notice I said
conviction, not condemnation). I do not judge, tut-tut, or
try to make them hang their heads in shame: I simply proclaim
the glory of our messiah! One of my mentors when I was
new to the ministry gave me a wise piece of advice that I
done my best to base how I fulfil my service to Jesus.
"Preach the gospel every day; and if you have to use words!"

But surely Jesus would never have been this way, all he ever
did was preach love!  Really? Do you know that there are more
verses in his teaching warning of the dangers of hell than
there are on love?
Let us look at some of the thing that "Jesus would not ever
do or say!"

Mar 12:38 And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces,
Mar 12:39 And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts:
Mar 12:40 Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

Mat 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
Mar 11:15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
Mar 11:16 And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.
Mar 11:17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Do you suppose that when Jesus "cast out them that sold and
bought in the temple"  and when he "overthrew the tables of
the moneychangers"  it was done quietly? or that it was done
softly so as not to offend someone?

Do you suppose that when he told the people to beware the
scribes, and the sanhedren that they were happy?

Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat 23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
Mat 23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
Mat 23:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
Mat 23:19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
Mat 23:20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
Mat 23:21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
Mat 23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Let us look at these words closely: hypcrite, viper, whited
sepulchres full of dead men's bones , unclean! Try useing
some of these descriptions and see how well you are received!

BUT OF COURSE A CHRISTIAN(CHRIST - LIKE PERSON) WOULD
NEVER SAY THESE THINGS! Why not? Jesus did! Yet we are
afraid to offend, or the remind people that God is a holy and
a righteous God and DEMANDS that we be the same!
1Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Do you think that we are given the armour of the lord found
in Gal 6 just so we can fight each other over trivial differences
or to stand against the evil in this world?

Let me close with a verse found in Joel that I feel is most
interesting--for 6 months every time I opened my bible it fell
open to this verse.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision

Today we stand in a valley of decision, do we stand bold in
our proclaimation for Jesus, or do we quietly conform to the
comfortable mold the world would place us in?
You see there are also multitudes in the valley of decision,
who only need to see someone boldly stand for God. When
they see your boldness it will give them the courage to step
forth and become a warrior of the Lord

respectfully your servant in Yeshua:

ravenloche

[Whitehorse]

Hm. I'm wondering how you arrived at the statement that people can smoke dope and still serve God. Because the Bible says that if people do such things they are to be brought under church discipline and they are to repent. If they do not, they are to be put out of the church. The Bible says we are to be sober. And that those who do not conquer their sins will not inherit the kingdom.

So, while people's desires do change after they come to Christ, it isn't their desires that matter, but God's. They can't serve God and take illicit drugs. The Bible is clear on that.

[ravenloche]

So, while people's desires do change after they come to Christ, it isn't their desires that matter, but God's. They can't serve God and take illicit drugs. The Bible is clear on that.

My friend I could not agree with you more, but if I had said no
then the young man would never have gone to the alter and
met our savior. I know that at times I appear to be very
unusual, and radical to the "normal" christian; but I must
reiterate that it is time for us to break out of the general
conformity, and learn to be the light upon the hiltop.

The word promises that we are able do the works that our
savior did, if we are willing to pay the price of totally selling
out to Him. This will never happen while we are what the
world expects . Let us press on for the mark of the prize of
the high calling in Christ Jesus.
The world earnestly looks for the manifestations of the sons
of God, it is time that we learn to show ourselves as children
of the most high. We have the right to come boldly before the
throne of grace, before the ancient of days, and then the
world expects us to stand before them with our hand in our
hand;no more!
I am a child of the King!Greater is he that is in me than he
that is in the world! There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus
so let us standfast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ
has set us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of
conformity!
We are warriors for our King-Check the last page of the book;
we win!

[sincereheart]

But now hear the rest of my answer: "You can do anything
that you want to do, and serve God, but if you are serious
about serving Jesus, do no be surprized if your want tos
begin to change."

Good point! We seem to expect instant perfection from new Christians and it just doesn't work that way!

An old sig of mine: "Disciples Fishing Co: We catch 'em, God cleans 'em!"

[ollie]

I have often wondered how preachers of today fulfill their evangelizing by evangelizing to those that are already Christians behind the walls of the buildings used for the assembly of same.

Did not Christ say,"GO"?


Denominational churches spend much money to send missionaries and such to "third world" locals to get the gospel tp them.
When in the truth and spirit of God that charity is needed at home, wherever home might be.

The unsaved need to hear of Jesus in order to believe, not the ones that have already heard, believed and are saved. Although all need to reflect on it from time to time and be reminded of who they are and for what purpose.

[Whitehorse]

So, while people's desires do change after they come to Christ, it isn't their desires that matter, but God's. They can't serve God and take illicit drugs. The Bible is clear on that.

My friend I could not agree with you more, but if I had said no
then the young man would never have gone to the alter and
met our savior.

I think your desire to help him is wonderful. And it's great you're willing to reach others who normally may not be reached through regular means. Kudos on that.

The problem is, if we tell them something that isn't biblical, it may not reach the biblical end we seek with that person. If he feels he can continue to smoke dope and serve the Lord (and the Bible reveals that these people will never reach the kingdom of God), it leaves a question as to whether he is truly seeking the Lord. If the heart is sincere, then God changes our desires, sure. I agree with that. But we also have the flesh to deal with. And the first three chapters of Revelation reveal that the forsaking of sin is necessay as it is a sign of true faith. [Revelation 2:5]

Because there is a counterfeit kind as well. It is called presumption, and this is where someone trusts Jesus to forgive them, but they don't forsake sin. Again, I think your intentions are wonderful. But the gentleman needs to know Jesus also asks us to count the cost [Luke 15:25-35], because some will start but not be able to finish once they realize all they have to give up. Including pet sins, and even family if God requires it. For some, a time will come when they would be ready to receive Christ, but they may now reject the cross because they'll figure it didn't work for them before. But they don't realize they came with wrong motives. [Matthew 13:3-23]

Friend, don't worry-God doens't hold us accountable for whether or not others respond to the pure water of His word. He puts no pressure on us to save; only to deliver His truth. God's Holy Spirit is what gets people to truly convert. If they don't come, the Holy Spirit didn't lead them yet. But if they do come and it's real, it can only be the Holy Spirit that brings them. There's a lot of comfort in that, I think. Jesus said the Holy Spirit is like the wind. We can see the effects of the wind. It goes where God's purposes lead it [John 3:8]. We don't need to worry.

I know that at times I appear to be very
unusual, and radical to the "normal" christian; but I must
reiterate that it is time for us to break out of the general
conformity, and learn to be the light upon the hiltop.

I agree that God's wants us to be lights. Amen. But we need to be very careful that our light comes from being separate from the world, not a part of it. God's word says to be in it, but not of it.

Romans 12:2

[Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is-his good, pleasing, and perfect will.

That means new Christians need to learn how to do this, and be willing. So we need to be very sure that we use the word correctly. If someone rejects the truth, then they reject it by God's sovereign decree [Romans 9:10-18]. I'm glad you want to reach these people.

The word promises that we are able do the works that our
savior did, if we are willing to pay the price of totally selling
out to Him. This will never happen while we are what the
world expects . Let us press on for the mark of the prize of
the high calling in Christ Jesus.
The world earnestly looks for the manifestations of the sons
of God, it is time that we learn to show ourselves as children
of the most high. We have the right to come boldly before the
throne of grace, before the ancient of days, and then the
world expects us to stand before them with our hand in our
hand;no more!
I am a child of the King!Greater is he that is in me than he
that is in the world!

God's word, and His Spirit, and zeal do make a mighty combination.

There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus
so let us standfast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ
has set us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of
conformity!

Well, God's word is very specific about what we are free from, though. We are not freed from obedience, or righteousness, or His decrees. The Bible tells us not to be conformed to the world. It doesn't say we are freed from obedience. In fact, there are so many calls for us to repent from our sin, and if our faith is genuine, we will do that. But if someone goes to the altar, only God knows their true motives in doing so. I heard a preacher on the radio (Mark Byers) say he counted how many people came to an altar call over a length of time. The people who responded also filled out cards. Hardly any of them ever came to the church again, and within a year when the church did followups, hardly any of them even professed Christ anymore. True conversion is a life experience that happens when the soil of the heart is right, and the person is truly willing to change inside. Many come seeking only a Savior, but Jesus never comes just this way. He is both Savior, and Lord. And a lot of people fall away when they hear of the repentance part, where they submit to Lordship.

We are warriors for our King-Check the last page of the book;
we win!

Yes-those who are truly in Christ will be saved. And this is marked by repentance.

[Symphony]

Yeah, do I become drunk, in order to sympathize with an alcoholic?

[ravenloche]

I think your desire to help him is wonderful. And it's great you're willing to reach others who normally may not be reached through regular means. Kudos on that.

The problem is, if we tell them something that isn't biblical, it may not reach the biblical end we seek with that person.

I agree that God's wants us to be lights. Amen. But we need to be very careful that our light comes from being separate from the world, not a part of it. God's word says to be in it, but not of it.



White horse: you, and people like you; are exactly why I have
begun to teach and preach messages like the one we are
presently discusing. I said nothing that was unscriptural, and
I was following the leading of my messiah. You need to get
your thinking out of the traditions of man, and learn to hear
again the voice of Eloim.You have placed your thinking on
one thing, and have failed to even hear what I said under the
unction of the holy ghost.
Let me reiterate for you: If you get serious with God---no
half-hearted, only by actions, service, but serious devotion to
the Lord Jesus Christ.

You quoted rom 12:2 but you seem have forgotten to put the
whole idea in your presentation, so please let me assist you.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

If we are willing to present our bodies a living sacrifice unto
God, the we have died out to self, died out to our concern of
what others think of us, and most of all we have let Jesus
have the reigns of our life. This is our "reasonable service"
To do whatever Yeshua asks us to do.

A light is what draws someone in when they are surrounded
by darkness. Let us learn to be different than the norm, let us
learn to be lights in the middle of darkness. If we act like all
the rest, talk like all the rest, and look like all the rest of the
church: which the world has rejected: is there anything to
draw them in?
I am not saying to live in sin, I am saying that we need to
understand  Nem. 8:10...for the JOY OF THE LORD is my
strength. Jesus told us that the thief(satan)came to rob , kill
and destroy, but: He has come to give us life and that more
abundantly. Life is to be lived, and those of us who allow the
messiah to live in us can live it abundantly!

Break from the norm white horse, let loose of the bindings of
religion, and learn the freedom of Christianity!

respectfully yours in Yeshua:

  ravenloche  

[Whitehorse]

1 Corinthians 5

5:11
But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

How does this scripture fit in with your teaching that people can serve God and take illicit drugs?

Or this one:

Romans 13

13:1
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God:  the powers that be are ordained of God.
13:2
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Now, being that these drugs are illegal, how is it that you can counsel people that they can serve God when this verse shows clearly that those who are not subject to authorities will receive the wrath of God?

Break from the norm white horse, let loose of the bindings of
religion, and learn the freedom of Christianity!

As it is written:

1 Peter 2


2:13
Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
2:14
Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
2:15
For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
2:16
As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
2:17
Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

Acts 4

4:19
But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.

Respectfully,
Whitehorse

[ravenloche]

I am typing this slowly so that you can comprehend what I am
saying. I do not condone the illicit use of any drug, alcohol,or
other type of sin. I am saying that if a person gets serious
in their desire to serve God there will be a change of heart,
will, desire and life style.

Is this clear yet or do I need to type slower?

[Whitehorse]

It
s not so much a matter of needing to type slower, as to remember what you wrote.

In another instance I was speaking at a meeting, when I was
asked by a young man: "preacher, can I smoke dope and still
serve God?"  You could have heard a pin drop on shag carpet
when I answered him with the world YES!

Now, since you feel I'm not understanding that statement correctly, can I ask you what you meant, specifically, by this:

Break from the norm white horse, let loose of the bindings of
religion, and learn the freedom of Christianity!

[sincereheart]

In all fairness, he did follow with:

But now hear the rest of my answer: "You can do anything that you want to do, and serve God, but if you are serious about serving Jesus, do no be surprized if your want tos begin to change."

I don't want to but in and argue semantics but I read ravenloche's answer as basically saying that Christ accepts us where we are first. If we have to be perfect to go to Him, then none of us will be allowed! I see all too often where a church-goer has convinced someone that they are such a sinner that Christ won't accept them. I spend too much time trying to make them understand that Christ does accept them where they are! And when they give their life to Christ, Christ will show them what He wants changed and when! Jesus met the woman AT the well! He didn't run up to her and shout: "Whore"....  

Maybe I'm being dense here, but when did Christ tell us that we have to be cleaned up first to accept Him? I thought once we accepted Him, He would clean us up??!!

Yeah, do I become drunk, in order to sympathize with an alcoholic?

No. Of course not. But would an unsaved alcoholic relate better to you or to a recovering alcoholic who has given his life to Christ?

The unsaved need to hear of Jesus in order to believe, not the ones that have already heard, believed and are saved. Although all need to reflect on it from time to time and be reminded of who they are and for what purpose.

Bingo!

[Symphony]

But would an unsaved alcoholic relate better to you or to a recovering alcoholic who has given his life to Christ?

I'll try to drink more in the future, sincereheart.  


     

[Whitehorse]

Yeah, it sounded like the guy wasn't asking if he could be forgiven for past sins that he really wanted to forsake, but whether he could live in them without having to pay the consequences. This, couched in the Christian liberty sermon doesn't make a kosher combination, if you ask me. Liberty to...what?

There's a difference between "Yes you can, but God *might* change your desires," and "No, you will need to forsake it, but God will help you overcome." The guy didn't sound like he came with the right motives. Better to tell him the truth and let God work in his life then to tell him anything just to get him to go to the altar where he has no intention of submitting his life to God anyway. In the future he may look back on the false conversion and tell himself it didn't work. Or worse, openly take these drugs and go about telling others he's a Christian.

[sincereheart]

Yeah, it sounded like the guy wasn't asking if he could be forgiven for past sins that he really wanted to forsake, but whether he could live in them without having to pay the consequences.

Valid point!

I'll try to drink more in the future, sincereheart.

Would that be possible?  
Have you been called to minister specifically to substance abusers?