True or False

[aw]

You know what I like most about tithing in the scriptures?  It's a practice that predates Judaism.  Before there were Jews, there was tithing.  We tend to see folk lumping this in with a practice of the law and attributing it solely thereto.  Such a shame.  :'(

aw:That does NOT make it a requirement to the believer today. Abraham paid tithes (plural) of the SPOILS and it was a ONE-TIME event. Jesus said you pay TITHES of mint and cummin but ignore the weightier matters of the LAW.

Malachi 3 is a classic misuse of forcing payments out of believers today in order to pay salaries and the building debt. Now, that is fine but God is not obligated to REWARD a tithe any more than any other amount or percentage.

2 Corinthinas 8 and 9 are the N.T. pattern with instructions and it is to be "willingly, not grudgingly or of necessity, joyfully, and as a demonstration of love. It is also to be as each has MADE UP HIS MIND TO GIVE and as GOD HATH PROSPERED."

The insistence on the law-keeping tithe probably explains why there are so many destitute and broke Christians as the PROSPERITY proponents keep fleecing the flock as well.

aw

[Reba]

Aw  

Sheesh  my, my,  tell ya what Aw  this is how giving i am.  You send me a check for $1000.00 and YOU can receive the ten fold blessing from God   Just to seal the deal i'll throw in some scary stuff on 'end times'  

      ********************************
I am a preachers kid, Dad had to have a regular job also to support us. Supporting your  pastor, church, the whole package is very importiant. I believe it should be done as a heart felt gift not as a bill.

[aw]

I just believe we should follow the instruction manual. The TITHE creates a 10% for God and 90% for me attitude. Just look around the next time yo u are in a service where the TITHE is considered obligatory- how many joyful givers do you see?

People who TITHE do not even follow the O.T. directions. Malachi 3 says tithe(s) and ofering(s) and if you don't do all 4 plus the required offerings you are cursed. Besides, there is not even a temple to bring them to and one of the tithes was for its upkeep.

The TITHE is NOT New Testament/Church teaching- it is pure law and like I said, probably explains why there are so many beggarly Christians living on "Barely get-Along Street."

The question is not HOW MUCH SHOULD I GIVE TO GOD but HOW MUCH OF GOD"S money should I keep? It is ALL His- the gold is His and the silver is His. He owns the sheep on a thousand hills and the earth is His and all that is in it. We are heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ and He who spared not His own Son but freely gave Him up will, with Him, freely give us all things.

Charge those that are rich in this worldd's goods not to trust in un certain tiches but in the living God who richly gives us ALL things to ENJOY.

God is able to make all grace abound toward us that we ALWAYS having ALL sufficiency in ALL things may abound to EVERY GOOD WORK. because even though He was very rich yet He became poor that we through His povrty might be rich.

The blessing of the Lord makes rich and He addeth no sorrow to it. It is the Lord who GIVETH you the power to get wealth as He establishes His covenant.

My point is that this LAW requirement is severly limiting the growth of the body of Christ because the ones who preach TITHING are too afraid to proclaim the real principles of GIVING. They had rather control the flock through fear and intimidation rather thn setting them free to enjoy the blessings of God. If they would preach the N.T. they would find the coffers overflowing.

aw

[Allinall]

There was tithing before the law and under the law. Does it still exist in Christ or is the giving required different, in some respects, from 10% of our worldly goods?

Yes and yes it is different.  We give 10% as a basis, not as a requirement.  Remember, the Old Testament Jews giving was not considered his tithe!  He gave in addition to that tithe.  About 25% of their income was given.  We, however, are not under the Law, but are under grace.  We give as God has given to us.  Graciously.  

[aw]

I certainly agree that 10% of gross can be used as a GUIDELINE. Personally, I would prefer to live off of the 10% and give 90%, but that is up to the Lord and His directions.

aw

[Allinall]

aw:That does NOT make it a requirement to the believer today. Abraham paid tithes (plural) of the SPOILS and it was a ONE-TIME event. Jesus said you pay TITHES of mint and cummin but ignore the weightier matters of the LAW.

Requirement for what?  Does the lack of "requirement" deny the existence of responsibility?  I do understand that many consider giving to be the bounty that televangelists rake in.  This is not however the concept that God gives.

Malachi 3 is a classic misuse of forcing payments out of believers today in order to pay salaries and the building debt...

What does God say about "paying salaries?"

Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.

1 Timothy 5:17

Honor, though, you may say.  Not Money.  What does Paul go on to say in the next verse?

For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer deserves his wages."

He speaks of money.  Salary.  We, as believers, are admonished to consider pastors worthy of double their pay.  This presupposes that they are being supported to begin with.  Paul was, and he didn't even want the money!  But he accepted it so that they might excersise that spiritual gift.

Now, that is fine but God is not obligated to REWARD a tithe any more than any other amount or percentage.

Amen!!!    We often think that by giving our "tithe" or our gifts that we get on God's good side.  We tend to think that He'll give us back what we've given so that we've not really given anything.  God does not reward giving tithe or gifts monetarily.  The reward comes from doing what is right, and developing the heart of a "cheerful giver."  Such a person, often times, finds more monies to give.

I like what my pastor says.  "If you want to know a man's heart for God, find out how tight of a grip he has on his wallet."  God tests us with our willingness to rely on Him not on our paycheck.  It all comes from Him, and He requires us to use what He has given us to support what He has called us to accomplish through Him.  We aren't giving God something He doesn't have or needs.  We aren't living according to the Law we are no longer bound or condemned by.  We are giving by a precedent set, not a precept commanded, and in addition thereto, out of love and reliance upon God Who has given us so much more.

2 Corinthinas 8 and 9 are the N.T. pattern with instructions and it is to be "willingly, not grudgingly or of necessity, joyfully, and as a demonstration of love. It is also to be as each has MADE UP HIS MIND TO GIVE and as GOD HATH PROSPERED."

Amen!!  Let him who stole steal no more, rather let him labor...that he be able to give to him who has need ( my paraphrase, sorry!   )

The insistence on the law-keeping tithe probably explains why there are so many destitute and broke Christians as the PROSPERITY proponents keep fleecing the flock as well.

This is not an insistence brother.  You are free to excersise your Christian liberty in anyway you see fit.  You can give and call it a gift and not a tithe, or you can give nothing at all!  You are still my brother in Christ, and we'll share the glories of Heaven some day.  But realize, this is a precedent that was set before there was a Law.  Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedec.  Jacob vowed to give a tenth of his possessions (the vow being focused on giving God His due, not minutely determining how many grains of salt I have so that I can give God a tenth thereof, as Jesus expressed).  There are those who misuse these gifts and do fleece the flock.  But to deny the provision, yes even to deny the very excersising of a spiritual gift He gives us is to do more harm than fleecing.

I just believe we should follow the instruction manual. The TITHE creates a 10% for God and 90% for me attitude. Just look around the next time yo u are in a service where the TITHE is considered obligatory- how many joyful givers do you see?

Yup!  So stop counting decimals and percents and give.  Right?  The joy comes from excersising that gift.

People who TITHE do not even follow the O.T. directions. Malachi 3 says tithe(s) and ofering(s) and if you don't do all 4 plus the required offerings you are cursed. Besides, there is not even a temple to bring them to and one of the tithes was for its upkeep.

The people who tithe aren't suppose to follow O.T. directions.  We aren't under the Law, afterall...

The TITHE is NOT New Testament/Church teaching- it is pure law and like I said, probably explains why there are so many beggarly Christians living on "Barely get-Along Street."

I respectfully disagree.  What I call tithe, you call giving.  What I call precedent, you call perceived precept.  

The question is not HOW MUCH SHOULD I GIVE TO GOD but HOW MUCH OF GOD"S money should I keep?

AMEN!!!![/b][/u]  Shake that bush brother!!  Preach it again!!!  And if it is God's money...should I not be supporting God's work?  

My point is that this LAW requirement is severly limiting the growth of the body of Christ because the ones who preach TITHING are too afraid to proclaim the real principles of GIVING. They had rather control the flock through fear and intimidation rather thn setting them free to enjoy the blessings of God. If they would preach the N.T. they would find the coffers overflowing.

To do one scripturally, is to do the other my friend.  We render unto God what is God's, out of a heart of love and above and beyond any such parameters formerly set that have no bindings on us today.

Let me just close by saying, though this may seem overkill directed at you, it isn't.  I speak the truth in love for many who hold an incomplete view behind a preconceived pet peeve.  

God bless in whatever manner you give brother.  

[aw]

Thanks bro and some good teaching.

May I just add that GIVING is a GRACE; "See that you abound in this grace also." It is an attitude given by God and I am not saying not to sow bountifully. The essential difference is that if a certain amount is specified, it, by its very nature, become a principle of LAW. There is not a single reference in the epistles to the Church that specify a "TITHE."

You say before the law, but it was obviously carried forward and became a part of the LAW. Jesus said you pay tithes but ignore the weightier matters OF THE LAW.

I agree that the workman is worthy of his hire and I have no problems at all with pastors receiving salaries and supporting the gospel. However, the way most churches do it is not much different from the local Country Club with dues going to pay the PRO and keep up the club and course.

The N.T. concept is GIVING is more akin to SHARING than paying salaries and mortgage notes on land and buildings. After all, the church is PEOPLE and not programs. In all of the epistles the money was used to relieve the poverty of fellow saints who were in dire straits.

Its about time members of the body of Christ recognized that there are other body parts that are just as important as their own little denomnation or "church."

aw

[ollie]

Aw  

Sheesh  my, my,  tell ya what Aw  this is how giving i am.  You send me a check for $1000.00 and YOU can receive the ten fold blessing from God   Just to seal the deal i'll throw in some scary stuff on 'end times'  

You have some of the TV evangelists down to a Tee with this offer. "The more you give to God,meaning we on the tube, the more you will get in return. They call it finances according to God's word.  

      ********************************

I am a preachers kid, Dad had to have a regular job also to support us. Supporting your  pastor, church, the whole package is very importiant. I believe it should be done as a heart felt gift not as a bill.

Yes and not because it becomes obligatory, or just a habit, or thinking it must be done for salvation.

[Allinall]

You're most welcome bro!  I know it can get frustrating, and you have a very good point.  We tend to get into a political mindset when we deal with our churches.  They too often become buildings and not people.  The New Testament church first met in homes.  Not just one, but many homes!  Yet they were still one body.  My personal pet peeve is how we don't do certain things because it goes against the churches "constitution."  Ever encounter that one?  It's always been my understanding that the New Testament is the New Testament churches constitution!  But that's just me and my rambling...  I think the major point is that things must be done decently and in order, and that things mature along the way in different fashions.  Nowadays, we meet in buildings if possible.  We purchase, furnish, and maintain those properties in order to do so.  I have no problem with that.  I just, like you if I read you correctly, sorrow to see that become the body of Christ.  Jesus didn't die for a building.  He died for me and made me His dwelling.

Good thoughts brother, on all accounts.  

[LesterMagic]

"On the first day of the week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may have prosper, that no collections be made when i come" 1Corinthians 16:2

[aw]

Correct: As God has prospered, as each has made up their own mind to give, not of necessity nor compulsion (never forced to), as a demonstration of love, and cheerfully.

aw

[Sower]

If I were to call and ask you if the following were true for you as an individual, how would you respond?

"YOU know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ how, even though He was very rich yet He became poor, that you through His poverty might be rich." (2 Cor 8:9)

Keep in mind that this scripture is right in the middle of the teachings on Christian giving and money.

aw

And also in the middle of that teaching, "the tithe" is NOT mentioned even once? Did you ask yourself why Paul would expound on Christian giving [liberality] for two precious chapters, yet not mention the tithe even once?

The answer is right there! Christ gave "ALL" (100%) as you have shown above, therefore the believer gives "ALL" (100%) back to Him. Out of that 100%, God allows the believer to take what he needs to survive, and the rest is meant to bless others with! This liberality could amount to anywhere from 1% to 99.9%.  That's why the first church -- the Church at Jerusalem -- gave ALL. See the book of Acts.

The modern teaching of "tithing" is not in keeping with this at all. In fact, it violates the New Covenant, since there is no earthly priesthood in Jerusalem.  Our Great High Priest is in heaven, and all believers comprise the Royal Priesthood on earth.  Therefore Paul did not teach "tithing" but "grace giving". A HUGE DIFFERENCE.

[aw]

Good teaching my brother. You can always tell when the coffers are low- out comes the old Italian prophet (Ma lach e) with "robbing God." Folks usually do not have an answer when you ask them about tithe(s) and offering(s) being plural.

I prefer to think that we are in partnership with God since it is ALL His and we are heirs of God and joint heirs with the Lord. Regardless, the earth is His and everything in it, the gold is His and the silver is His, and He owns the cattle on a thousand(all) hills. We are merely stewards of His bountu to, as you say, bless others and our family.

Its all "PROPHET SHARING."

aw

[JudgeNot]

I prefer to think that we are in partnership with God since it is ALL His and we are heirs of God and joint heirs with the Lord. Regardless, the earth is His and everything in it, the gold is His and the silver is His, and He owns the cattle on a thousand(all) hills. We are merely stewards of His bountu to, as you say, bless others and our family.

And...WE are his!

Its all "PROPHET SHARING."

AMEN!!!  

[ollie]

"On the first day of the week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may have prosper, that no collections be made when i come" 1Corinthians 16:2

Wasn't this a collection for the needy saints in Jerusalem and not necessarily meaning to be a weekly collection for the everyday work of the local church? Paul has asked that no collections be made after he comes. So did it end there as far as this collection goes?