Catholic Jesuit Denies Biblical reation...

[bronzesnake]

Before I start this post I want to make it clear that it is not my intention to slander Catholicism.
I have met many catholics who understand God's scriptures literally, and I have met many who do not.
Just as I have met many Protestants who do and many who do not...

A scientific organization interviews Jesuit Father Marc Leclerc in regards to cration and or evolution...

http://www.zenit.org/article-25115?l=english

Men and Their Cousins, the Chimpanzees

Interview With Father Marc Leclerc
By Carmen Elena Villa

ROME, FEB. 17, 2009 (Zenit.org).- Darwin intended to create a scientific theory, not an ideology of life in order to interpret reality, says a philosophy professor marking the anniversary of the scientist's birth.

Last Thursday was the 200th anniversary of Charles Darwin's birth, the English scientist and observer, author of the work "The Origin of Species" and of the second theory of evolution.

ZENIT talked with Jesuit Father Marc Leclerc, professor of philosophy of nature at the Pontifical Gregorian University and organizer of a congress on "Biological Evolution: Facts and Theories," which will be held March 2-7 in Rome.
 
Q: Let's talk first about Darwin's life. Did his formation as a theologian in the Anglican Church influence his evolutionary theories?
 
Father Leclerc: Darwin was essentially a great biologist.

He was neither a philosopher nor a theologian. It is true that initially he had a more theological formation in the Anglican Church, but he distanced himself from the church for personal reasons, primarily the death of his daughter, which seemed to him a great injustice, contributing to his estrangement from the faith.

However, it can be said that he was always respectful; moreover, his wife was very much a believer.

He underwent an evolution. In the end he established himself, as he himself said, in an attitude of open agnosticism, which has nothing to do with the position of an atheist who uses this against the faith. Unfortunately, some of his followers did so, but he did not directly.

He didn't include anything of faith in his theory and did not intervene in one sense or the other. His is a scientific theory as such; it has nothing to do with the existence or nonexistence of God, because [in this] we are on a totally different plane.
 
Q: What danger is there that Darwin's theory of evolution will become an ideology?
 
Father Leclerc: This has happened, as I said, because many of his followers have not had his prudence and at times have confused the two levels -- scientific and theological.

In particular, they have converted two elements into an ideology: the aleatory character of variation, which later was called mutation, and the mechanism of natural selection, which are two elements of a scientific theory.

One cannot make the latter into the key to the interpretation of reality. This is to pass, perhaps, to an ideological level without even taking the scientific level into account.

Thus science falls into a false philosophy, or a false theology, which is directly against the explanation of reality. This is a serious abuse of science, at times committed by scientists, who go completely beyond the scientific realm.

The enemies of Darwinism should not fall into the same trap; the scientific theory merits all our respect, but must be discussed only at the scientific level.
 
Q: How can one have a correct view of evolution and creation?
 
Father Leclerc: I am convinced that here the mediation of philosophy is indispensable to avoid confusion between the different levels: a radical separation or a confused mixture, where nothing is understood.

It is necessary to rationally articulate levels that are different, hence the need for philosophical mediation.
 
Q: Is it right from a Christian point of view to say that man is the result of the monkey's evolution? If so, at what moment was the human soul created?
 
Father Leclerc: We are different from chimpanzees.

They are our cousins, not our forefathers. The point is that biologically we have common forefathers, that is why they are cousins on the biological plane. However, they have had a different history to ours.

Some might say that the birth of the soul began with Homo Sapiens, others that it began much earlier, with Homo Erectus, still others that it began with Homo Habilis. We have several vestiges, but no formal proof.

The vestiges we might have correspond to the symbolic character of thought, to the articulated and symbolic language universally open to the possibility to relate to another freely and to God, in elements such as the advent of art and the religious element.

I cannot say when the human soul appeared; what we know is that humanity is today a unique species of modern man [Homo] Sapiens Sapiens. In it, each one of us has a soul created by God, each one has a singular soul.

When did it begin? We have one important fact among others: It seems that biological evolution really culminated with Homo Sapiens. However, the cultural revolution, proper to man, began already before the appearance of Homo Sapiens.
 
Q: Should Genesis be regarded as a theory of the creation of the world or as a theological theory to explain the creation of man and his freedom?
 
Father Leclerc: I recall what Galileo said: "The Bible doesn't teach us how heaven functions but how to get to heaven."

Genesis tells us how man has been created in God's thought, how he can go to God and how he has been estranged from God. It does not tell us scientifically why.

From this conception it tells us what plan God has for man and how man must adapt himself to this plan.
 
Q: Is man lord of creation or a more evolved animal species?
 
Father Leclerc: At the simply phenomenological level man is the only one who can interact with his environment, changing the environment according to his wishes, and is not obliged to adapt himself to the external changes of the environment.

An example: Man produced the book on the origin of species 150 years ago. No animal has ever been seen to reflect on the origin of living beings.


Bronzesnake

[Barbara]

That's just a shame! Biologically they're not our forefathers, and we didn't evolve!! God told us He created us in HIS image -- not in the image of an animal...

This from Ken Ham:

"The book of Genesis teaches that death is the result of Adam's sin (Genesis 3:19); Romans 5:12, 8:18-22) and that all of God's creation was "very good" upon its completion (Genesis 1:31). All animals and humans were originally vegetarian (Genesis 1:29-30).

But if we compromise on the history of Genesis by adding millions of years, we must believe that death and disease were part of the world BEFORE Adam sinned. You see, the (alleged) millions of years of earth history in the fossil record shows evidence of animals eating each other, diseases like cancer in their bones, violence, plants with thorns, and so on. All of this supposedly takes place BEFORE man appears on the scene, and thus before sin (and its curse of death, desease , thorns, carnivory, etc.) entered the world.

Belief in millions of years undermines the Bible's teaching on death and on the character of God. To accept millions of years of animal death before the creation and Fall of man contradicts and destroys the Bible's teaching on death and the full redemptive work of Christ. It also makes God into a bumbling, cruel creator who uses (or can't prevent) disease, natural disasters, and extinctions to mar His creative work, without any moral cause, but still calls it all "very good".

People must remember that God created a perfect world; so when they look at this present world, they are not looking at the nature of God but the results of our sin.

The God of the Bible, the God of mercy, grace, and love, sent His one and only Son to become a man (but God nonetheless), to become our sin-bearer so that we could be saved from sin and eternal separation from God. As 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, "For He has made Him who knew no sin, to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

There's no doubt- the god of an old earth/evolution destroys the gospel.

[Soldier4Christ]

There's no doubt- the god of an old earth/evolution destroys the gospel.

Amen and this is the exact purpose of this idea.

 

[bronzesnake]

Excellent post Barb!

John

[nChrist]

AMEN AND AMEN!

Brothers and Sisters, this is a beautiful thread for Christians if they understand. Sadly, some self-proclaimed Christians don't understand  and have believed Darwin over GOD. The TRUTH is the opposite of what Darwin taught, so Darwin didn't have a clue.

GOD created mankind, and mankind was PERFECT from the start. The abode of man was also beautiful and PERFECT - a Paradise to sustain man and nothing to hurt man. GOD gave mankind everything in absolute PERFECTION, but GOD did command man not to eat of one tree. Everything was in subjection to man, and man was supposed to be in subjection to GOD. The command from GOD was not unreasonable or overbearing, and it didn't deprive mankind of any good thing. Man didn't need the fruit from the forbidden tree and had everything in abundance.

The point and the Real TRUTH is SIMPLE:  GOD Created everything - exactly as HE said that HE did in HIS WORD. Everything was PERFECT until man disobeyed GOD.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 ASV  19  Or know ye not that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own;  20  for ye were bought with a price: glorify God therefore in your body.


1 Corinthians 7:20-24 ASV  20  Let each man abide in that calling wherein he was called.  21  Wast thou called being a bondservant? Care not for it: nay, even if thou canst become free, use it rather.  22  For he that was called in the Lord being a bondservant, is the Lord's freedman: likewise he that was called being free, is Christ's bondservant.  23  Ye were bought with a price; become not bondservants of men.  24  Brethren, let each man, wherein he was called, therein abide with God.

[Shammu]

I have met many catholics who understand God's scriptures literally, and I have met many who do not.
Just as I have met many Protestants who do and many who do not...

I have too brother. Long time no see....................

God loves every single soul he ever created including those who are in hell. However, not every soul has loved him, and because they reject God, they reject all that God has to offer. Those who reject God choose for themselves eternal suffering because in rejecting God they reject all that is good, they reject peace and happiness, leaving for themselves sorrow and suffering. Atheism is the rejection of God. It requires a deliberate denial of God's existence.

Marc Leclerc, can try to live in denial, but God will repay and punish them in His own way.

[Soldier4Christ]

Vatican evolution conference snubs creation believers

This week's Vatican-backed conference on evolution is under attack from people who weren't invited to participate: those espousing creationism and intelligent design.

The Discovery Institute, which supports intelligent design research, says it was barred from presenting evidence that some features of life are too complex to have evolved by accident.

The director of the five-day conference at Rome's Pontifical Gregorian University, the Rev. Marc Leclerc, says intelligent design is not represented because it isn't scientific.

Discovery Institute President Bruce Chapman responds that Pope Benedict has called the universe an "intelligent project," and Leclerc lacks the science credentials of intelligent design researchers.

During a question and answer session at the conference, a creationist challenged participants to present proof of transitional life forms. He had the microphone taken away from him.

[Soldier4Christ]

The Vatican and evolution: Creationist responds


OneNewsNow recently published an article dealing with the Vatican debate on evolution -- an article that prompted a heated debate in the "reader comments" section. OneNewsNow decided to give Dr. Terry Mortenson of Answers in Genesis, whose comments appeared in the original article, a chance to respond to readers.

Comment: To debate over creation vs. evolution diverts us from the most critical point of the Christian Faith. Christ came, he died for us and by his grace, his salvation is available to us. Why do different [C]hristian groups have to focus on minute differences rather than what unites us all as Christians?

    Mortenson: Well, I would say that first of all the Book of Genesis is foundational to the gospel of Jesus Christ. The Bible tells us that the world was created in perfect condition; there was no sin, no death. Genesis 3 tells us why death came into the world and gives us the very first promise of the Messiah in Genesis 3:15; and in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul talks about the fact that Jesus Christ is the last Adam, and Adam is the first Adam, and he says for as in Adam all die even so in Christ shall all be made alive. So Paul connects the work of Christ to what happened in the Garden of Eden. And he builds his doctrine of marriage on the fact that God created Adam and Eve.
     
    So the gospel message is built on the foundational truths of Genesis. We also have the statements of Jesus himself when he was asked about divorce in Mark 10; he took the Pharisees back to Genesis. And when he was talking to the Pharisees on another occasion in John 5, if you believe Moses you would believe my words for he spoke of me. So Jesus and the apostles clearly tie the ministry and the gospel of Jesus Christ to Genesis -- and it is foundational to the gospel.

Comment: Genesis can't even give a coherent account of Creation -- we get two different stories just in the first two chapters. Not to mention oddities like 'light' being created several days before the sun, moon, and stars. Yet you want to take this as inviolate fact? And you think evolution is a total fantasy? Right.

    Mortenson: We need to be very careful to pay attention to details of Genesis 1 and 2. They are not two contradictory accounts of creation. Genesis 1 is what I like to call a wide-angle-lens view of the whole six days of creation. Genesis 2, from verse 4 onward, is a telephoto zoom lens looking at some of the events of Day 6. They are not contradictory. Genesis 2 does not say anything about the creation of the earth, the creation of the sun, moon, and stars, the creation of sea creatures; they're just not parallel accounts -- and people who say that just are not reading the text carefully.
     
    Secondly, as far as the sunlight being created before the sun, when people raise that objection I'm sure they're well meaning, but they're really reasoning like an atheist because behind that question is the assumption that God cannot produce the phenomenon of light without the sun. But of course the Bible makes it very clear that God can do that. He blinded Saul on the road to Damascus in the middle of the day. It wasn't the sun; it was another source of light and Paul tells us later on that he saw the risen Christ.
     
    In the book of Revelation it says in the new heaven and the new earth there will be no more night; but there will be no sun either -- and God will be our light. Genesis 1, I don't believe the light in verse 3 is God because it is a created thing. He said let there be light and there was light. But it's some kind of light source to create the phenomenon of an evening and a morning, and then on the fourth day that light was either removed and replaced by the sun, moon, and stars or somehow distributed -- we don't know. But the fact that we don't know or fully understand everything that we would like to know doesn't mean that the text is vague or not telling us the truth. The text is very clear that God defines what a day is in verse 5, and then he calls them second day, third day, fourth day and the Fourth Commandment in Exodus 20 God says you work six days because I created in six days.

Comment: Background radiation in space proves the universe is about 12.5 billion years old. The big bang doesn't have to contradict the Bible unless you want it to. You just make Christians look foolish when you try to argue that the universe is only 6,000 years old.

    Mortenson: Well, first of all the background radiation does not prove the universe is 12 billion years old, the number that seems to be the most quoted by the evolutionists. The background radiation only shows you background radiation, it doesn't say anything except if you interpret as a leftover remnant of the big bang. But then you're assuming the very thing that is in question.
     
    Is it just quibbling over details? Well, no -- the details of Genesis are important; the details of the Word of God are important because every word of God is inspired, and so we have to look at the details and not just gloss over it. And it is impossible to harmonize the big bang scenario with Genesis because God says in Genesis 1 that he created the earth before light and before the sun, moon, and stars. Right there you have a flat contradiction in the order of events. And then the evolution story says that in terms of biological life over millions of years, that sea creatures came into existence before land plants, and dinosaurs came into existence before birds -- those are just flat contradictions with the order of events in Genesis one. And so, the...details matter.

Comment: Is there a difference between Darwinian evolution -- one species changing into a completely different species -- and evolution that involves minor genetic changes within species?

    Mortenson: Well, evolutionists are notorious for changing the meaning of the word in the middle of a sentence or an argument. Evolution, Darwinian evolution -- the evolution that all of our universities and schools are teaching -- is molecule-to-man evolution. It is that all of the different plants and animals living today are descended over millions of years from a common ancestor, the first living creature which was a single-celled creature which popped into existence from nonliving matter.
     
    And so in the evolutionary view, all the mammals living today descended from the first mammal which evolved from a non-mammal. All of the birds today are descended from the first bird which evolved from a reptile -- most evolutionists think a dinosaur....What is often confusing is that people will talk about variation within a kind or species. The variation of dogs, we have wolves, dingoes, jackals, wild dogs, and then we have all the domestic dogs. That's not evolution -- that is simply variation within the dog kind. And Genesis teaches us that God created separate kinds to reproduce after their kind. And we can see it in mankind. We don't all look exactly alike, but that diversity was all in the genetic information of Adam and Eve's DNA. And so we're all descended from Adam even though we have people who are very dark-skinned, people that are very light-skinned. That's not evolution -- that is just human variation within the human genome.

Comment: In a previous interview we talked about acceptance of evolution with the Catholic religion in regards to a debate at the Vatican. However, this is not just a Catholic issue. Acceptance of evolution is widespread in the Protestant realm, correct?

    Mortenson: Absolutely. Most theologically liberal [people] -- I would probably say all theologically liberal people -- would accept evolution, the whole ten yards. But even among evangelical Christians, there are professing evangelicals who believe in evolution, biological evolution. There are others who reject Darwinian evolution, but accept the geological ages and the big bang. And then there are Christians who reject all of this evolutionary thinking and accept what Genesis says as true and straightforward history.
     
    And so there's a huge controversy within the church, and I've spoken on this subject in 19 countries and it varies from country to country. And in some countries most Christians would believe in young earth creationism, but they wouldn't know how to defend that view. In other countries most of the evangelical church would accept all of evolution, the big bang, geological ages, and Darwin's theory. So it varies from country to country, but it's a worldwide issue.

Mortenson concludes that is possible to be a Christian and believe in evolution. But that belief, he says, is contrary to the Word of God and the details of Genesis. He adds that Christians must build their thinking on the Word of God.

[nChrist]

AMEN!

I give thanks for the work of organizations like Answers in Genesis and OneNewsNow. These are days where sources for the TRUTH are few and far between. As a stark contrast, our schools and even some churches are teaching the totally FALSE and EVIL DARWINISM! YES - I say it is EVIL because it directly calls GOD a liar. I say that Darwinism is FALSE because it has no basis except for LIES!

The ONLY TRUTH is from GOD, and HE told us what HE wants us to know about HIS CREATION in Genesis. I must add that Genesis is quite logical and beautiful. There is a mountain of hard evidence that GOD'S WORD is completely TRUE, and ONLY GOD'S WORD is worthy to measure all TRUTH! A so-called church preferring Darwin over GOD is a sign of the times. GOD'S WORD tells us many things that will happen as the End Days of this Age of Grace draw near. It's my opinion that these days DO draw near, and ALL of BIBLE PROPHECY will be fulfilled MOST PERFECTLY at GOD'S APPOINTED TIME.

Brothers and Sisters, we are already living in a time where it takes courage to tell the TRUTH FROM GOD'S WORD. We are NOT ashamed of the GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD because it is the ONLY TRUTH that can set the lost free from the curse of sin and death. More and more Christians are dying every year to share GOD'S WORD AND HIS GOOD NEWS! The devil is desperate to shut Christians up because GOD'S GOOD NEWS defeats the devil. Great hosts of lost souls are at stake, and the devil wants them. SO, CHRISTIANS SHOULD NEVER SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP - EVEN IF IT MEANS DEATH! This is a reasonable service for the HOLY ONE WHO GAVE HIMSELF ON THE CROSS - JESUS CHRIST - OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR FOREVER!

Finally, I must say that any so-called church that is calling GOD a liar and perverting HIS WORD is working for the devil - NOT GOD! If you attend a so-called church like this, you NEED TO REBUKE IT AND LEAVE IT! It's EVIL and you shouldn't want to call EVIL GOOD by your presence, participation, or support! I won't list all of the other EVIL things many so-called churches are doing these days. I'll simply say that they will face the HOLY WRATH OF GOD!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Thanks be unto God for His unspeakable GIFT, Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour Forever!