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Mick
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« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2004, 06:53:33 PM »

If we were to go on just two verses,then yes,Jesus WAS God:-
Jesus said:-"I and my Father are one and the same" (John 10:30), and "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:CoolBut a number of other verses make it clear that he was using a figure of speech only,and that in fact he WASN'T God:-
"Why do you call me good? Only God is good" (Luke 18:18)
and "Only God knows when Judgment Day will be,I don't know myself" (Matt 24:36)
 Jesus himself said he was SON of God  (NOT God) when the High Priest asked:-"Are you the Son of God?", and Jesus replied:-"I am" (Mark 14:61)
Finally,Jesus often prayed to God. But if he WAS God why would he pray to himself?
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« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2004, 07:01:49 PM »

Well, Mick - I repeat:

Quote
However when Jesus walked the earth as a man, He walked in two roles one as human and the other as divine.  When Jesus acted in His human nature, He was God's Son.  When Jesus acted in His divine nature, He was God (and still IS).  Sounds schizophrenic but I assure you God has it all worked out.  For God to die for our sins He had to come to earth as man and be tempted as man is tempted.  The logical way to do that was as the Son.  ...only God can forgive sins.  Jesus forgives sins.  Thus, again, Jesus is God.


God is spirit.  God took on a earthly role as an incarnate man.
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« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2004, 08:34:39 AM »

mick,

There is no other savior but God.

Note;

Isa 43
11  I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.


If Jesus is the Savior, and the scriptures declare that He is;

Lk 2
11  For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

He is God.

Not everyone can know nor understand this, since it is given to be understood by God the Spirit. (Mat 13:11, 1 Cor 4:1)

Are you a born again Christian??

Blessings,

Petro
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« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2004, 10:09:56 AM »

He is God.
Not everyone can know nor understand this, since it is given to be understood by God the Spirit. (Mat 13:11, 1 Cor 4:1)
Are you a born again Christian??
Blessings,
Petro

First,I never call myself a Christian,as only God can judge if we qualify to bear that name;I prefer to simply say "I try to follow that young carpenter from Nazareth"
Second,notice that many people on these boards say "I believe this" or "I believe that" ,but I myself always try to avoid giving my own beliefs,as I prefer to go on what the SCRIPTURES say.
And the scriptures I posted earlier in this thread plus a bit of commonsense thrown in,make it clear enough Jesus WASN'T God. Again I ask:-Jesus often prayed to God,but if he WAS God why would he pray to himself?
Here's the great Chapter 17 of John,where Jesus speaks directly to his separate Father yet at the same time refers to himself and the disciples and all believers BEING ONE TOGETHER.Thus we are all ONE with God,just as Jesus was,but we don't say we ARE God do we?

"After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name-the name you gave me-so that they may be one as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. "I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
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« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2004, 08:56:53 AM »

When Jesus prayed,he prayed to GOD.Jesus being GOD was he praying to himself?
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« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2004, 10:48:04 AM »

Jesus always claimed to be the son of God, not God. He talked about one greater than Him all the time. Also, when talking about the end of the age Jesus said, "No one knows the hour, not even the son." He acknowledged He is not omniscient. He was WITH Hi Father in the beginning and will sit at the RIGHT HAND of the Father in the end. He was conceived of a human being and the Holy Spirit. God is and always was. I have no problem with the fact that Jesus is the son of God, not God Himself. He is still the only way to God.

It is quite evident that you have not carefully studied ALL the Scriptures regarding the deity of Christ. Therefore your statement "Jesus always claimed to be the son of God, not God" is incorrect.  This is what the Jehovah's Witnesses and other rejecters of Christ's deity claim, but it is simply not true. Also, to the Jews of Jesus' day the title "Son of God" was indeed equal to "GOD" (Matt. 26:63-65).  This is something which is conveniently overlooked.

You might recall that when Moses asked God His name, this is how God [Elohim] responded: "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM; and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you... The LORD [YHWH] God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; THIS IS MY NAME FOR EVER, and this is my memorial unto all generations" (Exod. 3:14,15).

When Jesus of Nazareth was called "a Samaritan" and accused of being possesed with a demon by the unbelieving Jews (John 8:12-59) here is what He said to them: "VERILY, VERILY, I SAY UNTO YOU, BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM." (Jn. 8:58).  The Jews understood this to be an open and direct claim by Jesus that He was none other than YAHWEH, the LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, since "I AM" was and is His name eternally. Therefore they took up stones to stone Him for blasphemy (v. 59; Jn. 9:33) and that is precisely why they sentenced Him to death -- "HE MADE HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD" : "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but said also THAT GOD WAS HIS FATHER, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD" (Jn 5:18).  

We know Jesus is equal with God because Scripture says that "He thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (Phil.2:6), and God the Father says to God the Son: "Thy throne, O GOD, is for ever and ever... Therefore GOD, even thy God hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.  And thou LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of thine hands..." (Heb. 1:8-10).

The problem with your understanding is that if Christ is not very God, then Christianity becomes polytheism, since the Lord Jesus Christ was and is worshipped as GOD. What did doubting Thomas say to Him: "My Lord and my God" (jn. 20:28).

Christ said "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father: and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not THAT I AM IN THE FATHER, AND THE FATHER IN ME?... Believe me, THAT I AM IN THE FATHER, AND THE FATHER IN ME (Jn.14:9-12).
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« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2004, 02:29:06 PM »

Jesus is GOD - Part One

The entire Holy Bible, from cover to cover, bears witness of the Holy Trinity, the plurality of deities in THE ONE ALMIGHTY GOD. The Old Testament clearly speaks of Almighty God with numerous Names, and prophesy is given of things to come. However, very little was revealed about Jesus Christ in the Old Testament except prophesy which was probably misunderstood by most men of the time. The full knowledge of Jesus Christ was a mystery not known to men of other ages until He is revealed in the New Testament. The same is true of full knowledge of the Holy Spirit.

The teaching of the entire Holy Bible makes it exceptionally clear that Almighty God was the same for eternity past and will be the same for eternity future. Almighty God was and is a Holy Trinity, yet ONE ALMIGHTY GOD: (God, the Father), (God, the Son), and (God, the Holy Spirit). All three deities of the eternal Godhead are known by various names throughout the Holy Bible.

Genesis 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 8:58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Portions of John are often quoted by some trying to prove that Jesus Christ was not God. Jesus Christ was and is THE SON OF GOD, one of the Holy Deities of the Godhead, VERY GOD. The portions of Scripture quoted are those involving quotes of Jesus Christ while HE was in the form of a man, as HE humbled Himself to fulfill law and prophesy, die for the sins of mankind, offer Himself as the perfect sacrifice, and be the LIVING LORD AND SAVIOUR for all who would believe and ask HIM to be the LORD of their lives. YES, Jesus Christ was GOD before the foundation of the world, and Jesus Christ is GOD for all eternity.

Please read and study the above portions of Scripture for absolute proof that Jesus Christ was and is VERY GOD.  "The Word" is Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and HE was "The Word" in the beginning, and "The Word" was with God, and "The Word" was GOD. "The Word", Jesus Christ, was made flesh and dwelt among us. "I AM" is GOD, and Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am."

This is just a tiny sample of Scriptures that prove Almighty God is a Holy Trinity, yet ONE ALMIGHTY GOD. Disrespect or blasphemy against Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit is disrespect or blasphemy against Almighty God, AS THE THREE ARE ONE. Those who deny THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT as ALMIGHTY GOD are false teachers who deny GOD and are accursed.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2004, 03:04:06 PM »

When Jesus prayed,he prayed to GOD.Jesus being GOD was he praying to himself?

If you can accept BY FAITH that God is three Persons -- Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and that the Son on earth was Jesus of Nazareth -- "a man approved by God" and completely dependent on the Father -- then it should not be puzzling to understand why Jesus prayed to the Father, not Himself.

At the same time, this is a mystery, so to try and get a grasp on this with your limited human intellect is an exercise in futility. We believe God even when we don't fully understand.  That is trust in the living God.
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« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2004, 08:14:13 PM »

Jesus is GOD - Part Two

(Please see the following Scriptures that testify of "The Word".)

Revelation 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

1 John 1:1  That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

Hebrews 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

(Who made the worlds?)

Hebrews 1:2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

(Jesus was speaking in the form of a lowly man, yet HE plainly speaks of a glory HE had with the Father before the world was. So, who was Jesus Christ, and what kind of glory did HE have with the Father? He was ONE of the TRIUNE GODHEAD, GOD, THE SON, VERY GOD.)

John 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

(Below you will see the description of the TRIUNE GOD, THE HOLY TRINITY, yet ONE ALMIGHTY GOD. "The Word" is Jesus Christ, GOD, THE SON. "The Holy Ghost" is also known as the Holy Spirit, GOD, THE HOLY SPIRIT.  You should notice this Scripture testifies of "these three are one.")

1 John 5:7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

(John 10:30-33 testifies of Jesus Christ and who He was. Jesus said "I and my Father are one." Jesus Christ walked the earth in the form of a humble and lowly man, yet HE WAS THE LORD OF HOSTS, VERY GOD.)

John 10:30  I and my Father are one.
John 10:31  Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
John 10:32  Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
John 10:33  The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

(Who is the child and son being talked about in Isaiah 9:6? The last portion of the Scripture gives some of the names He will be called, and those names include "The Mighty God" and "The Everlasting Father". He is THE SON OF GOD, JESUS CHRIST, VERY GOD.)

Isaiah 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

(Matthew 1:23 speaks of another name for Jesus Christ, "Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.")

Matthew 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

(1 Timothy 3:16 speaks of a "mystery of godliness", yet the Scripture goes on to explain the mystery. "God was manifest in the flesh", Jesus Christ in the form of a man. Jesus Christ was indeed "justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.")

1 Timothy 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

(Titus 2:13 testifies of "the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." There is only ONE GREAT GOD, but He is also our "SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST". There is no error here": THE TWO ARE ONE.)

Titus 2:13  Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

(Please see 2 Peter 1:1 and 1 John 5:20 that also speak of TWO OF THE TRIUNE GODHEAD. Pay particular attention to 1 John 5:20 that explains part of the mystery of Jesus Christ. The first portion of the Scripture speaks of "The Son of God" and "His Son Jesus Christ". He came "that we may know Him that is true". "We are in Him that is true" and "This is the true God, and eternal life".)

2 Peter 1:1  Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

1 John 5:20  And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

I don't know how many parts this will turn out to be, but I plan to submit overwhelming proof of THE TRIUNE GODHEAD, THE HOLY TRINITY. This topic is too important and precious to stop until all know beyond any doubt that JESUS CHRIST IS GOD AND WAS GOD.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2004, 12:26:02 AM »

Jesus is GOD - Part Three

If one is going to prove that Almighty God is a Holy Trinity, one must also prove that the Holy Spirit is also ONE IN AND WITH THE ONE ALMIGHTY GOD. It is interesting to note that the full revelation of the Holy Spirit is not made known until after the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, HIM arising from the dead, and HIM ascending back into Heaven as the LORD OF HOSTS, OUR LIVING LORD AND SAVIOUR, VERY GOD. "Full revelation" is not an accurate term, as there are still many mysteries in the ETERNAL GODHEAD, but there is overwhelming proof of the ETERNAL GODHEAD in the Holy Bible and from "THE WORD", JESUS CHRIST, and through HIS HOLY SPIRIT who lives in our hearts as THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO BAPTIZED our souls and cleansed us from all unrighteousness, "A COMFORTER", a guide, and "A SEAL" which sets us apart as children of God. A walk "IN THE SPIRIT" is a walk with ALMIGHTY GOD, as the HOLY SPIRIT is also ONE OF THE GODHEAD, ONE GOD, ALMIGHTY GOD. Much more will be revealed to God's children in eternity with our Lord and Saviour in glory.

I'm going to let many of the Scriptures speak for themselves, as commentary is not necessary to see the truth revealed. You will have to study these portions of Scripture for yourself before you begin to understand that the Holy Spirit is ONE OF THE GODHEAD, ONE GOD, ALMIGHTY GOD. If you have the Holy Spirit of God in your heart, he will open your eyes to the truth of these Scriptures. If you don't have the Holy Spirit of God in your heart, you are lost, without Jesus, and the Scriptures will be nothing but foolishness to you.

John 14:17  Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:26  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26  But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

1 Corinthians 2:10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1 Corinthians 2:11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 12:11  But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

John 16:7  Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
John 16:8  And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
John 16:9  Of sin, because they believe not on me;
John 16:10  Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
John 16:11  Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
John 16:12  I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
John 16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Romans 8:26  Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Luke 12:12  For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

Acts 5:32  And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 15:28  For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Acts 16:6  Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,

Acts 28:25  And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

1 Corinthians 2:13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Hebrews 2:4  God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

2 Peter 1:21  For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Hebrews 3:7  Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Hebrews 3:8  Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Hebrews 3:9  When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Hebrews 3:10  Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Hebrews 3:11  So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Ephesians 2:17  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Ephesians 2:18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1 Corinthians 2:11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Luke 1:35  And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Romans 8:11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Genesis 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Psalms 104:30  Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Matthew 12:28  But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Isaiah 6:3  And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Romans 9:1  I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

Now, we have scratched only the surface of the overwhelming proof of the Holy Trinity. Please bear with me for additional posts of an unknown number. I'll have to rest before I can do more.

Love In Christ,
Tom
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« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2004, 09:12:27 PM »

Just as the foul spirit of satan can well up and take over possessed people and speak through their mouths, I also believe (and this is purely my opinion) that in a similar way,the beautiful spirit of God regularly welled up in Jesus and took him over with such power that much of what Jesus said was GOD HIMSELF speaking through his mouth,such as when he proclaimed:- "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Matt 23:37)
So in a sense only,Jesus WAS God at such times!
   
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« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2004, 11:44:09 PM »

I believe in the Trinity which is one God-head – the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - so, in fact I believe Jesus IS (not was) God.  However when Jesus walked the earth as a man, He walked in two roles – one as human and the other as divine.  When Jesus acted in His human nature, He was God's Son.  When Jesus acted in His divine nature, He was God (and still IS).  Sounds schizophrenic – but I assure you God has it all worked out.  For God to die for our sins He had to come to earth as man and be tempted as man is tempted.  The logical way to do that was as the Son.  Read the first few lines of the Gospel of John: I understand it to say Jesus is the Word, and the Word IS, WAS, and always WILL be.  That can only be said about God; hence, Jesus is God.  Another example – only God can forgive sins.  Jesus forgives sins.  Thus, again, Jesus is God.

I like the way you explained the Trinity.
Along with Jn.1:1-2,14,18, Heb.1:8 we read that Jesus is God.
At the baptism of Christ, (Mt.3:16-17, 2Pet.1:17-18. Col.2:9
Col.1:15-19

God bless,
bluelake   Smiley
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Petro
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« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2004, 01:39:54 AM »

He is God.
Not everyone can know nor understand this, since it is given to be understood by God the Spirit. (Mat 13:11, 1 Cor 4:1)
Are you a born again Christian??
Blessings,
Petro

First,I never call myself a Christian,

Well lets see now?

So whose disciple are you??

If your are not Christs, you are not a Christian, better yet, if you do not possess the Spirit that raised Jesus Christ from the dead, ytou do not belong to Christ, according to Gods Word.  

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as only God can judge if we qualify to bear that name;I prefer to simply say "I try to follow that young carpenter from Nazareth"

So what do you with these inspired words of God;

  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
  Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
  For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
  The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
(Rom 8:11-16)

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Second,notice that many people on these boards say "I believe this" or "I believe that" ,but I myself always try to avoid giving my own beliefs,as I prefer to go on what the SCRIPTURES say.

You sound like a moderate democrat, talking in curcles.

What does "I prefer to go on what the SCRIPTURES say .", MEAN?


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And the scriptures I posted earlier in this thread plus a bit of commonsense thrown in,make it clear enough Jesus WASN'T God.

Well, you are right He wasn't anything, but, unfortunately you are wrong, because He is God..

You have said enough to convince me already why you do not identify yourself as a Christian.

So what are you Jehovah Witness, or Seventh Day SAdventis, or a Arian, Socinian, what do you prefer to identify yourself as?


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Again I ask:-Jesus often prayed to God,but if he WAS God why would he pray to himself?
Here's the great Chapter 17 of John,where Jesus speaks directly to his separate Father yet at the same time refers to himself and the disciples and all believers BEING ONE TOGETHER.Thus we are all ONE with God,just as Jesus was,but we don't say we ARE God do we?

Well, this is myystery to you, but not to me, since the trinity doctrine answers the question you pose , and just because you do not believe it does not change the fact it is taught by scripture.

By the way you wouldn't be the ole charlie, who up and took the "Trinity" thread he started a couple of weeks back would you??

I will get back to you......


Petro
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« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2004, 03:12:03 AM »

Trinity in the OT!

                Six months ago, my elder game me this book, "A Bird's Eye view of the Bible" and as I read the author;s beliefs oin the Trinity, I saw verses that suprised me, there are three Yahwehs but only one God.   Here they are:


16   Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
17   Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
Isaiah 48:16-17

                     Here clearly, there are three persons, but One God.  The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is God.

and Jabez, when He was praying to God, He wasnt praying to himself, they are three distinct persons of the Godhead.  If it is only one person then yes, he is talking to himself but the Trinity in the Bible is three persons.  Can God talk to God?   Yes because remember, three persons.
           
agur
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"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Proverbs 30:4 & Ephesians 2:8-9
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« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2004, 10:27:14 AM »

Re:Is Jesus God?
Reply #20 on: January 16, 2004, 10:09:56 AM

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mick posted as reply #20

If we were to go on just two verses,then yes,Jesus WAS God:-
Jesus said:-"I and my Father are one and the same" (John 10:30), and "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:8)But a number of other verses make it clear that he was using a figure of speech only,and that in fact he WASN'T God:-
"Why do you call me good? Only God is good" (Luke 18:18)
and "Only God knows when Judgment Day will be,I don't know myself" (Matt 24:36)
Jesus himself said he was SON of God (NOT God) when the High Priest asked:-"Are you the Son of God?", and Jesus replied:-"I am" (Mark 14:61)

mick,

What bible version are you using??

It is a paraphrased edition and not reliable.

I would get myself a reliable Bible Version, before I embarked on a mission to disprove the central doctrine of the Christian faith.

This version you use, will only confuse you further, since by its use, you will not be able to establish what is or isn't true of what is written.

you said;

Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:Cool    

My Bible does not give these words at Jhn 14:8

"Why do you call me good? Only God is good" (Luke 18:18)  

Again, my bible does not have these words at Lk 18:18

Only God knows when Judgment Day will be,I don't know myself" (Matt 24:36)

This is very poor translation of the actual verse, let me give the Authorized Inspired Version of;

Mat 24
36  But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

The passage of scripture you have chosen at Mat 24, is a difficult one, and the meaning of this verse, could, and could not be speaking of Judgement Day depending what you think is in view herein, nevertheless, the words Judgement Day do not appear at this verse, however, the verse does refer to a day of fulfillment of certain things..



In pointing out the verses above, you fail to read them in the context of how they are written.

At John 10:30, Jesus replies to the Jews who asked Him at verse 24;

24  Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.


Jesus's answer follows;

25  ..................... I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one. KJV

The Jews who understood the Law, then responded to Jesus's answer in the following way;

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32  Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33  The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

So, you can see that Jesus, according to the Jews herein claimed to be God, and they took up stones to stone Him

I guess, if you were a Jew who lived in those days, you would have taken up a stone or two yourself, to stone Him and, since you deny He is God manifested in the flesh, you count yourself as one who does not believe Jesus.

It makes sense to me, why you do not consider yourself Christian.

But this is alright, it doesn't mean you can't become a Christian, it simply means you have not trusted Him in the words which He has spoken on behalf of our Father in Heaven however, unless you trust His words, you will never know the truth of this matter.

Because it is essential to believe Him, whom the Father has sent to be the judge of all living and the dead;

Those that do not believe Jesus, have not believed the Father, and if they die in unbelief, the only thing left for them is that Judgment Day, when the words He spoke will judge each person who has not believed Him.

Notice;

Jhn 12
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.  
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Jesus came to save HIS people, unless you believe Him, you cannot be one of His.

Mat 1
18  Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19  Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.
20  But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save His people from their sins.
22  Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Put your faith in Jesus, mick, then you will understand and believe what you can't.

Petro
« Last Edit: January 22, 2004, 10:32:52 AM by Petro » Logged

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