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christianheretic
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« on: January 16, 2009, 10:09:04 PM »

IT IS FINISHED

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, IT IS FINISHED: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

The following is a revelation by the Holy Spirit of the complete and utter defeat of our adversary the devil at the instant of our Lord releasing His Spirit from His mortal flesh.

Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mat 27:51 And, Behold, THE VEIL OF THE TEMPLE WAS RENT IN TWAIN FROM THE TOP TO THE BOTTOM; AND THE EARTH DID QUAKE, AND THE ROCKS RENT;

As I surfed a Christian web site I was drawn to a post that contained the above verses and a question; what did the earthquake and the rocks rent signify, what was there meaning?

The third time I returned to review this post I was about half way thru and still unsettled with the answers given, when the Holy Spirit said, “the signs you are reading about signify "THE FALLING OF THE GATES OF HELL.” And this verse flowed into my mind;

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; And The Gates Of Hell Shall Not Prevail Against It.

I was stunned! Then I was ecstatic and began to praise our Heavenly Father for His wondrous ways and His awesome Truth, such great treasures He hides in plain view!

With this revelation the following verses, 52 and 53, of Matthew now come into focus and blend with the rest of Matthew’s testimony concerning the Spiritually empowered Physical signs manifested at the death of our Lord's physical body.

In fact without verses 52 & 53 we miss one of the most important truths demonstrated by our Lord’s Death, the actual demonstration of the COMPLETE AND UTTER DEFEAT OF OUR ENEMY, by the awakening of the Saints of God from their bondage in hell!

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The Gates of Hell that Jesus is speaking of in Mat 16:18 are the individual gates on each the tombs in hell of the dead saints WHO DIED IN HOPE OF THEIR REDEEMER.

These individual GATES on each tomb are what held the souls of the saints in the limbo, the realm of the dead until our Lord released His Spirit in death.

When our Lord released His Spirit to death, death could not hold Him, and it could no longer hold those who were His.

The earthquake and the rocks renting give testimony of the Tremendous Spiritual Power discharged when our Lord released His Spirit from His body and the saints who slept, in faith awaiting their redeemer, awoke. Then after our Lord’s resurrection they arose to go forth and witness to the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Mighty Triumph of the Cross!

You see the temple Veil’s renting witnesses to our freedom of access through Christ into the very presence of God in this present life and the earthquake, the rocks renting, the dead Saints awaking are witness too our life eternal achieved through our Lord’s death upon the cross.

A LIFE ETERNAL THAT EVEN THE DEATH OF THIS FLESHLY BODY CAN’T INTERRUPT.

 Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, Hath Everlasting Life, and shall not come into condemnation; but IS PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE.

For the present; death still reins over this mortal flesh but no longer are our spirits condemned to Hell awaiting the resurrection of this corruptible flesh.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

HALLELUJAH PRAISE GLORY AND HONOR BE TO THE NAME OF OUR LORD JESUS THE CHRIST FOREVER AND EVER.

2Ti 1:10  But is now made manifest by the appearing of OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST, WHO HATH ABOLISHED DEATH, And Hath Brought Life And Immortality To Light Through The Gospel:

The Gates of Hell have no longer the power to imprison our souls for if Hell could not contain the Saints of Jesus time it can not imprison the Souls of the Saints of this age either!

  Heb 2:14  Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; THAT THROUGH DEATH HE MIGHT DESTROY HIM THAT HAD THE POWER OF DEATH, THAT IS, THE DEVIL;

What a wondrous picture of complete triumph over our enemy.  Now we have not only the testimony of the Apostles but actual events of the Saints arising from their graves as witness to many in Jerusalem of  our Lord’s magnificent triumph over Satan’s power of DEATH, blessed be His Holy Name forever and ever!

HALLELUJAH and PRAISE UNTO HIM FOREVER AND EVER:

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« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2009, 04:36:35 PM »

IT IS FINISHED

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, IT IS FINISHED: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

The following is a revelation by the Holy Spirit of the complete and utter defeat of our adversary the devil at the instant of our Lord releasing His Spirit from His mortal flesh.

Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mat 27:51 And, Behold, THE VEIL OF THE TEMPLE WAS RENT IN TWAIN FROM THE TOP TO THE BOTTOM; AND THE EARTH DID QUAKE, AND THE ROCKS RENT;

As I surfed a Christian web site I was drawn to a post that contained the above verses and a question; what did the earthquake and the rocks rent signify, what was there meaning?

The third time I returned to review this post I was about half way thru and still unsettled with the answers given, when the Holy Spirit said, “the signs you are reading about signify "THE FALLING OF THE GATES OF HELL.” And this verse flowed into my mind;

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; And The Gates Of Hell Shall Not Prevail Against It.

I was stunned! Then I was ecstatic and began to praise our Heavenly Father for His wondrous ways and His awesome Truth, such great treasures He hides in plain view!

With this revelation the following verses, 52 and 53, of Matthew now come into focus and blend with the rest of Matthew’s testimony concerning the Spiritually empowered Physical signs manifested at the death of our Lord's physical body.


Hello christianheretic,

I share your joy to be rescued from the curse of sin and death by the Precious Blood of Jesus Christ on the Cross. However, I do want to point out that you shouldn't guess about the meaning of the earthquake in Matthew 27:51. There are many things you shouldn't guess about. There is no doubt that it was a SIGN of GOD'S Power, coupled with SIGNS in the heavens. Many present at the time thought the SIGNS were a testimony that JESUS CHRIST was who HE said that he was - VERY GOD. I could go on with other portions of the post, but the overall results of the CROSS should be the focus. Are the gates of hell fallen? Is hell no more?

You should also know there is a difference between hell and hades, especially regarding the Saints prior to the CROSS. Abraham and others were not being tormented or punished. The renting of the veil also has tremendous significance. Again, I would share your REJOICING about JESUS, THE CROSS, and SALVATION - but mixing guesses with this precious subject should not be done. For a beginner, you can take a look at Mark 15:38, Luke 23:45, Psalms 68:8, Joel 2:10, Psalms 18:7 Joel 3:16, and Nahum 1:6. Many other Portions of Scripture would be needed to address the rest of your post. The basics are what most people need desperately. Dreaming up possible answers to difficult portions of Scripture rarely is accurate, and wrong guesses detract the focus away from the PLAIN AND BASIC TRUTH. In this case, you're talking about the GOOD NEWS - the most important message in existence, so mixing guesses with GOD'S GOOD NEWS is grossly improper. Please don't do that here or anywhere else.

GOOD NEWS!

1:  Romans 3:10 NASB  as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

2:  Romans 3:23  NASB  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

3:  Romans 5:12  NASB  Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

4:  Romans 6:23  NASB  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

5:  Romans 1:18  NASB  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

6:  Romans 3:20  NASB  because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

7:  Romans 3:27  NASB  Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

8:  Romans 5:8-9  NASB  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

9:  Romans 2:4  NASB  Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

10:  Romans 3:22  NASB  even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

11:  Romans 3:28  NASB  For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

12:  Romans 10:9  NASB  that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

13:  Romans 4:21  NASB  and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

14:  Romans 4:24 NASB  but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,

15:  Romans 5:1  NASB  Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

16:  Romans 10:10  NASB  for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

17:  Romans 10:13  NASB  for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."


Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT!, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord and Saviour forever!
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christianheretic
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« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2009, 12:07:41 PM »

("There is no doubt that it was a SIGN of GOD'S Power, coupled with SIGNS in the heavens. Many present at the time thought the SIGNS were a testimony that JESUS CHRIST was who HE said that he was- VERY GOD")

So you have no idea what these signs mean but you are sure they can not mean what the Holy Spirit by Revelation says they mean.

Our Lord, Jesus the Christ knows what they mean and states so in Mat16:16-18.

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; And The Gates Of Hell Shall Not Prevail Against It.

So if you have no idea what these signs do mean how can you possibly know what they do not mean?

The Word of God is designed to offer the Truth in the face of every possible deception used in an attempt to deceive us yet you offer no alternative from the Scriptures to refute this Revelation of the Holy Spirit; only personal judgments based on nothing more then personal opinions.

Yet we are expected to believe you rather then that which the Holy Spirit has revealed.

“I do want to point out that you shouldn't guess about the meaning of the earthquake in Matthew 27:51. There are many things you shouldn't guess about Dreaming up possible answers to difficult portions of Scripture rarely is accurate, and wrong guesses detract the focus away from the PLAIN AND BASIC TRUTH”[/i]

To declare this a Revelation by the Holy Spirit as mere guessing or dreaming when you yourself have absolutely no idea what these signs in fact mean is rather presumptuous on your part, is it not?

The Pharisees of our Lord’s time had a similar problem in that they had no need of the Righteousness that Jesus the Christ offered them for they already had their own righteousness and they were quite well content with it. Mt 9:11-12 

Likewise many in this day have no need of God’s understanding, by the Holy Spirit, of His OWN Written Word, because they already have their own understanding of His Written Word and are quite well content with it.

As stated in the post, this is a revelation by the Holy Spirit, Just because you can not find this understanding in one of your many commentaries or just because it is not presently a part of your personal theology does not give you the right to presume this revelation is a GUESS or some type of DREAMING.

I did not think my way to the mountain top to grasp this sprig of Truth or build a little house of cards out of rational precepts mingled with my imagination but rather the Holy Spirit drew back the curtain as I was mentally at rest in contemplation of God’s Word.

If this revelation is of God, it will accomplish His purpose in bringing it forth. Isa 55:11.

If this is not of God it is but dead leaves in the wind, here today and then gone?

ACCEPT IT, REJECT IT OR REFUTE IT FROM THE SCRIPTURES; that is your decision to make.

“I could go on with other portions of the post, but the overall results of the CROSS should be the focus. Are the gates of hell fallen? Is hell no more?”

Unless I have forgotten how the English language works I need you to show me what there is about this post that leads you to think it states anywhere “THAT HELL IS NO MORE.”

For the spirit of a Christian, one whose name is written in the Book of Life, Hell no longer is a destination upon the death of this flesh, this is true.

For all others Hell is very much a present reality for all who do not have their names written in the Book of Life must be incarcerated in the darkness of Hell until the SECOND RESURRECTION, Rev 2:11, 20:6, 20:10-14, 21:8, when they will appear before the Great White Throne Judgment and then be vanquished too the Lake of Fire for eternity.

"Are the gates of hell fallen"?

Yes, hallelujah and Praise be to His Name Forever, the Gates of Hell are fallen for all who die in Christ Jesus our Lord. Glory be to God for His wondrous gifts of SALVATION and ETERNAL LIFE now and FOREVER. Mt 27:52-53

"I could go on with other portions of the post, but the overall results of the CROSS should be the focus".

Please explain how these signs of the Earthquake, the Rocks Renting, the Veil Renting, the Graves Opening and the Saints Awaking are not all signs equally important in the overall results of the Death of our Lord upon the Cross?

Simply because you can only comprehend one of these signs presently is not a reason to throw out the others.

Too assume because you can not comprehend the other signs presently  makes them some how worthless is quite a strech, don't, you think?

Concerning death of our Lord upon the Cross, the Opening of the Graves and the Saints awaking are a direct result of Deaths inability to hold the Christ, the Very Son of God in its grasp.

Among other things it TESTIFIES TO THE FACT HE IS THE VERY SON OF GOD WHOM DEATH CAN NOT HOLD.

Joh 3:18 HE THAT BELIEVETH ON HIM IS NOT CONDEMNED: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Rom 8:1 There is THEREFORE NOW NO CONDEMNATION to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; THAT THROUGH DEATH HE MIGHT DESTROY HIM THAT HAD THE POWER OF DEATH, THAT IS, THE DEVIL;

The Power of Death that the Devil had prior to the Cross is the CONDEMNATION of sin which has its roots in the rebellion of Adam in the garden.

This CONDEMNATION of sin is the VERY POWER OF DEATH’S hold on our spirit in Hell and it was taken away by the LAST ADAM, Jesus the Christ, upon the Cross because HE IS THE SON OF GOD and is without sin.

Thus the POWER OF DEATH over HIS Spirit and ours was DESTROYED, forever by our Lord’s sacrifice upon the Cross.

This is why our Lord on the Cross said “IT IS FINISHED”. Joh 19:30 and it is also why he said to the Thief hanging on the cross next to Him, “TODAY SHALT THOU BE WITH ME IN PARADISE.”

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

DEATH AND HELL COULD NOT HOLD HIM and it can not hold any that are HIS as the Thief, the graves of the Saints opening and the Saints awaking from Hell’s grasp proves.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The ultimate Power of the Cross is not just the forgiveness of our sins; The Forgiveness of our sins is but a means to an end, the doorway opened to us by our Lord’s sacrifice;

The ultimate Power of the Cross is its ability to grant ETERNAL LIFE with Christ to all who will come unto Him. 

For without the Power of Granting ETERNAL LIFE our Lord’s great sacrifice upon the Cross was a very high price to pay for but a very short stay of execution.

Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE, and SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION; BUT IS PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE.

We are PASSED FROM THE DEATH which still reins over this flesh, UNTO LIFE for our spirit which is Eternal with Christ now and forever.

And not just ETERNAL LIFE did our Lord accomplish upon the Cross but also the very FEAR OF DEATH itself can no longer hold us in bondage.

Heb 2:15 And DELIVER THEM WHO THROUGH FEAR OF DEATH WERE ALL THEIR LIFETIME SUBJECT TO BONDAGE.

[i]"You should also know there is a difference between hell and hades, especially regarding the Saints prior to the CROSS. Abraham and others were not being tormented or punished."
[/b]

Concerning Hell, Hades and the Lake of Fire I am familiar with these terms and there is nothing inaccurate in my post concerning these terms, nor did I ever indicate that Hell is a place of punishment, which is another of your assumptions for which my post is innocent.


"In this case, you're talking about the GOOD NEWS - the most important message in existence, so mixing guesses with GOD'S GOOD NEWS is grossly improper. Please don't do that here or anywhere else"

Please explain how my post which is written to encourage all believers has anything to do with preaching to the unsaved about the Good News of Salvation?

Based on this accusation how many of the New Testament Epistles, which were in majority written to Edify the Body of Christ, would also be condemned.

If you presume to prevent edification of the believer with the Truth as revealed by the Holy Spirit then it is you who appears too stepped over the line and not I.

Freely I have been given freely do I share that that which I have received.
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« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2009, 01:18:23 PM »

There are many that think they have "the Truth as revealed by the Holy Spirit" when in fact what they have is a stretching of scripture to fit what they desire it to be. If it does not match up with scripture without having to stretch the imagination of men then it is not a true revelation from God. Mat 27:52 speaks of the grave, the tomb, not any gates of hell. From what you are saying is that all of the saints were suffering the torments of hell, until Jesus released them. We know from scripture that this is not true. Read Luke 16:22-28 and you will see the truth of this, if you can at all see the truth.

Mat 27:52 is not speaking of the same thing as Mat 16:18. Hell and grave are not synonymous nor are they meant to be.

A part of the Good News of Salvation is that we can escape having to go through the torments of hell so this subject does in fact have "to do with preaching to the unsaved about the Good News of Salvation." When we die our bodies will indeed be in the tomb, however we will be with the Lord. When the saints of old died their bodies were indeed in the tomb but they were not in hell, they were in the bosom of Abraham waiting for the promises of God through Jesus Christ.

The Word of God is designed to offer the Truth in the face of every possible deception used in an attempt to deceive us yet you offer no alternative from the Scriptures to refute this Revelation of the Holy Spirit; only personal judgments based on nothing more then personal opinions.

In regards to this statement I have but one word ... Ditto!

You may have put a lot of time into the study of this subject but it is quite apparent from scripture itself that it is you that have yet more time that is needed in that study.

I will believe the Lord's word long before that of the revelations of men that do not ascribe to the word of God.

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« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2009, 12:10:49 AM »

A little archaeological information in reference to Mat 27:51-53.

It is widely debated as to whether this earthquake was a worldwide event of just a local one. It is for sure, through historical and archaeological evidence, that there was an earthquake in Jerusalem that caused severe destruction. This earthquake caused the first known destruction in the Qumran area where it totally devastated all buildings there which were then rebuilt. The new ones were then destroyed again by the Romans. There are massive amounts of rocks in the Jerusalem region that are inexplicably split in two that show no signs of being done with any kind of tool nor done by any kind of external trauma.

There are also tombs that show signs of having been opened by an earthquake at about the same time. One of these is the tomb known as the "Tomb of the Patriarchs."

All this stands as a testament to the power of God.

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« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2009, 04:47:46 PM »

“A part of the Good News of Salvation is that we can escape having to go through the torments of hell so this subject does in fact have to do with preaching to the unsaved about the Good News of Salvation."



First of all let me address this point on how you believe that FEAR, TERROR and COERCION are in any way ELEMENTS OF THE GOOD NEWS of SALVATION for the UNSAVED.

FEAR, TERROR and COERCION are the WEAPONS used by BRUTAL MEN and our ADVERSARY the DEVIL NEVER does GOD use these WEAPONS upon His OWN CHILDREN.

GOD is the GOD OF LOVE and NOT the GOD OF FEAR, TERROR and COERCION.

GOD”S GOOD NEWS is about HIS LOVE, HIS MERCY, HIS FORGIVENESS of our SINS and HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, JESUS the CHRIST our LORD and our SAVIOR who SACRIFICED HIMSELF FOR EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US.

JESUS the CHRIST was sent to save unbelievers from their SINS, JESUS the CHRIST was not sent to save anyone from the LAKE of FIRE and BRIMSTONE.

HIS GOOD NEWS is designed to CONVICT SINNERS of their SINFULNESS so they will TURN to HIM and be FORGIVEN.

There is no GOOD NEWS in COERCING someone into turning to GOD there is only FEAR, TERROR and RESENTMENT.

JESUS the CHRIST is OUR SHEPARD, we are HIS SHEEP.

THE GOOD SHEPARD DOES NOT DRIVE HIS SHEEP WITH FEAR and TERROR BUT RATHER HE LEADS the WITH the LOVE and MERCY of GOD.
 
The GOOD NEWS is a message of LIVING HOPE not the TERROR of ETERNAL DAMNATION.

WHY?

Because God does not want us to serve Him from a foundation of FEAR but out of a FOUNDATION BASED ON LOVE, and with the very same LOVE HE HAS DEMONSTRATED WITH HIS SACRIFICE FOR US, WE MUST DEMONSTRATE TO OTHERS.

For the WORLD is to know us by our LOVE not our THREATS.

FEAR TERROR AND COERCION are the ANTITHESIS OF LOVE and HAVE NO PLACE in the MESSAGE of SALVATION.

Whenever our Lord spoke of Gehenna and the LAKE of FIRE and BRIMSTONE He was teaching how BELIEVERS should live, how a believer should weigh SIN still remaining in their lives versus the End of SIN being in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone.

Never did our LORD use the LAKE of FIRE and BRIMSTONE when speaking about unbelievers for HIS MESSAGE AND HIS MINISTRY IS ABOUT HIS LOVE for the LOST and not about HIS THREATENING THE LOST THAT THEY MUST REPENT OR BURN FOREVER.

You are sorely misguided in this point.
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« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2009, 04:50:51 PM »

QUOTE: “If it does not match up with scripture without having to stretch the imagination of men then it is not a true revelation from God”.

 
I am a mere man and I suspect you are not dissimilar so if the One and Only True God of all the Universe and His Truth are unable, not only to stretch my imagination but in fact far exceed my imagination I would have serious doubts as to whom I was worshiping.

Who am I that I should be God’s judge as to what limit His Truth must conform?

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For AS THE HEAVENS ARE HIGHER THAN THE EARTH, SO ARE my ways higher than your ways, and MY THOUGHTS THAN YOUR THOUGHTS.

Eph 3:20  Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly ABOVE ALL THAT WE ASK OR THINK, according to the power that worketh in us,


QUOTE: “If it does not match up with scripture…….. From what you are saying is that all of the saints were suffering the torments of hell, until Jesus released them. We know from scripture that this is not true. Read Luke 16:22-28 and you will see the truth of this, if you can at all see the truth.”


Suffering the TORMENTS of Hell?

I am quite surprised that you a, leader in the Church, who puts such great emphasis on the Word of God would actually be unaware that the Scriptures reveal that there are TWO Separate and Distinct ABODES for HELL.

While the first ABODE of HELL is active and receiving INMATES the SECOND ABODE of HELL is DORMANT awaiting God’s time to begin receiving inmates.

While both ABODES are PRISONS they could not be more different from one another.

Never are these TWO ABODES of HELL active at the same time for when the SECOND ABODE of HELL becomes active at the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT of GOD, the PRESENT ABODE OF HELL is imprisoned within it. REV 20:14    

You’re a man who seems to believe the Scriptures, let us look and see what they have to say about these TWO ABODES OF HELL.

In the Old Testament Scriptures Helll is the English translation of the Hebrew word Shehole, Strong’s H7585 and appears (57 times) in the Old Testament.

Shehole is translated (24 times) as (Hell), (31 times) as (Grave) and (2 times) as (Pit).

In all these cases it is speaking about the same place, Shehole, “THE WORLD OF THE DEAD INCLUDING ITS ACCESSORIES AND INMATES”

Shehole is the PRESENT HELL in use and received its first Inmate when Able was murdered by Cain and from ABEL to the CROSS it received all who have died upon this earth. NOTE: there are some exceptions which will not be addressed here.

Job 30:23 For I know that thou wilt bring me to death, and to the house appointed for all living.

In this World of the DEAD or as the Scriptures says THOSE WHO SLEEP, there is only DARKNESS because the Spirit of Death BINDS ALL spirit/soul inmates in a STATE of DEEP UNCONSCIOUSNESS from which they know nothing and can know nothing for they are TOTALLY UNCONSCIOUS or ASLEEP.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: BUT THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANY THING, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecc 9:10  Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, (SHEHOLE) whither thou goest.

That the spirit/soul in Shehole are ASLEEP or UNCONSCIOUS is further confirmed by our Lord Jesus the Christ in the New Testament.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, OUR FRIEND LAZARUS SLEEPETH; but I go, that I may AWAKE HIM OUT OF SLEEP.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Mat 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshiped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Mat 9:23 And when Jesus came into the ruler's house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise,
Mat 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

In SHEHOLE, this World of the DEAD or of those who SLEEP, there is NO PUNISHMENT, NO TORTURE, NO FIRE or BRIMSTONE, only the ABSOLUTE DARKNESS of a DEEP UNCONSCIOUSNESS or DEEP SLEEP.

Shehole is a Holding Prison that BINDS the spirit/soul of those who have died in a DEEP SLEEP OR UNCONSCIOUSNESS until the time of the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT when they all WILL BE AWAKENED and cast into the SECOND ABODE of HELL as the Scriptures reveal.

Rev 20:11  And I saw a GREAT WHITE THRONE, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and DEATH and HELL (GREEK HADES same as HEBREW SHEHOLE) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And DEATH AND HELL, (Shehole), WERE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. This is the second death.


This SECOND ABODE of HELL is called by the Hebrew name GEHENNA (Strong’s G1067) or the LAKE of FIRE and BRIMSTONE. It was Created for the Devil and his Angles but will also house all of unsaved mankind. Mat 27:41

GEHENNA, the LAKE OF FIRE and BRIMSTONE was Created as a Prison of ETERNAL PUNISHMENT but has no present occupants and will not have any until our LORD’S 2nd ADVENT when the Beast and the False Prophet will become its FIRST INMATES by being cast into the LAKE of FIRE and BRIMSTONE ALIVE, that is FULLY CONSCIOUS.

Rev 19:19  And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20  And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. THESE BOTH WERE CAST ALIVE INTO A LAKE OF FIRE BURNING WITH BRIMSTONE.


These Two will be the sole occupants of the LAKE of FIRE and BRIMSTONE until the time of THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT has arrived and then ALL OCCUPANTS of the FIRST ABODE of HELL, SHEHOLE, WILL BE AWAKENED and CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE and BRIMSTONE to be TORMENTED FOREVER and EVER.

So your statement “From what you are saying is that all of the saints were suffering the torments of hell” is incorrect for no one even today suffers in SHEHOLE for they are ASLEEP or UNCONSCIOUS, completely unaware of anything.


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christianheretic
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« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2009, 04:59:40 PM »

QUOTE: “We know from scripture that this is not true. Read Luke 16:22-28 and you will see the truth of this, if you can at all see the truth”

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24  And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


This is a parable and teaches us about something else entirely but as with all parables the surface elements used as symbols are also TRUE for God not only does not lie, God can not lie. Tit 1:2

But the point you hoped to make is invalid because this parables SETTING or the time frame of when it takes place is obvious from the Elements, within it.

This parable speaks about events taking place after the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT when all the UNSAVED have already been JUDGED and cast into the LAKE of FIRE and BRIMSTONE.

So your attempt to show that those in HELL, SHEHOLE, suffer and therefore the Saints of the OT are in some place called Abraham’s Bosom is invalid.


QUOTE: “Mat 27:52 speaks of the grave, the tomb, not any gates of hell”.

 
You misunderstand what is being spoken about in this verse let us look at the entire verse.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept AROSE,

The GATES of HELL (Greek HADES-Hebrew-SHEHOLE) is not speaking about their graves or their Tombs as on this earth but rather about their AWAKENING from BEING BOUND IN THE SLEEP OF DEATH in SHEHOLE.

The English word AROSE in the above verse of Scripture means in the Greek to WAKEN or to ROUSE from SLEEP.

 In MAT 27:52 the word “GATES” is symbolic of the BINDING that holds all the occupants of SHEHOLE, HELL, in a STATE of ABSOLUTE SLEEP OR UNCONSCIOUSNESS.

Each spirit/soul imprisoned in SHEHOLE, HELL, has their own CELL or TOMB in which they are BOUND in DEEP SLEEP.

Each TOMB has a GATE which is Symbolic of the SPIRITUAL POWER, or LOCK that holds them in this STATE of SLEEP.

This is why our LORD uses the PLURAL word GATES when He says “the GATES of HELL shall not PREVAIL”; or OVERPOWER who HE is, THE VERY SON OF GOD.

When DEATH FAILED TO BIND our LORD in SLEEP all the GATES or LOCKS on the CELLS or TOMBS in HELL that contained His SAINTS, OPENED and they AWOKE FROM THEIR FORCED STATE OF SLEEP.

QUOTE: “We know from scripture that this is not true. Read Luke 16:22-28 and you will see the truth of this, if you can at all see the truth”

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24  And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


This is a parable and teaches us about something else entirely but as with all parables the surface elements used as symbols are also TRUE for God not only does not lie, God can not lie. Tit 1:2

But the point you hoped to make is invalid because this parables SETTING, time frame, is after the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT when all the UNSAVED have already been JUDGED and cast into the LAKE of FIRE and BRIMSTONE which has only TWO occupants prior to the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT. Rev 19:20

So your attempt to show that those in HELL, SHEHOLE, suffer and therefore the Saints of the OT are in some place called Abraham’s Bosom is invalid.

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« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2009, 07:37:50 PM »

christianheretic,

You at least have a big variety, and a part of it resembles the Holy Bible. This is a debate topic, so this thread is being moved to the debate area. If anyone wishes to argue with you, they are most welcome. I'll pass. Your other thread you started will be there also - for the same reason.
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« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2009, 11:56:36 PM »



JESUS the CHRIST was sent to save unbelievers from their SINS, JESUS the CHRIST was not sent to save anyone from the LAKE of FIRE and BRIMSTONE.

I do agree with that!
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« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2009, 09:20:14 AM »

I do agree with that!

However by saving us from our sins we are also saved from eternal damnation and therefore do not suffer the consequences of sin in "the LAKE of FIRE and BRIMSTONE". You cannot have one without the other.

Rev 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

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Joh 9:4  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
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« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2009, 06:25:22 PM »

when Jesus said "it is finished"  He meant that His work was finished.   That the law had been fulfilled thereby finished. and thus He began the covenant that God had made with Abraham.   The new covenant was now in place, the perfect law of Liberty in Christ Jesus.  Salvation by faith by the blood of Jesus
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« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2009, 07:40:39 PM »

when Jesus said "it is finished"  He meant that His work was finished.   That the law had been fulfilled thereby finished. and thus He began the covenant that God had made with Abraham.   The new covenant was now in place, the perfect law of Liberty in Christ Jesus.  Salvation by faith by the blood of Jesus

Hello truthteacher,

I see this is your first post, so Welcome!


Most Christians know and understand your first post. However, this is a rather strange thread started by a drive-by, wannabe prophet who wasn't with us long. Most of us here are more settled and mature in God's Word, and we look forward to having fellowship with you.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 13:11  And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
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