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| | |-+  I'm ticked at our deacons!!
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Author Topic: I'm ticked at our deacons!!  (Read 1709 times)
erdoc77
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« on: January 10, 2009, 09:06:20 AM »

Our deacon body has acted to make a decision for the church.  This is against our constitution and now has caused such an uproar that I feel irreparable damage has been done.  They may have acted in good faith however, the way they went about doing it was WRONG.  They did not follow Mt 18:15-17.  Is there a recourse against the deacon body besides asking a No confidence vote?  We are southern baptist.
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nChrist
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« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2009, 10:15:39 AM »

Hello erdoc77,

I see this is your first post, so WELCOME!


First, I sincerely hope that you enjoy Christians Unite, and I look forward to having fellowship with you.

The Bible contains many kinds of information, including possible models and methods of doing things. These are not necessarily commandments on how to do things in the local assembly, rather ideas about how to do things in the local assembly.

I don't know what they attempted to address or the magnitude of the problem they attempted to address. This would obviously make a big difference in what should be done and how. We don't do much with denominations here, especially considering that even churches of the same denomination have different ways of doing things. Most churches do have legal documents to define how things are done. Some of the instructions are to make insurance companies, the IRS, or any number of other entities happy. This is another reason why each church probably has differing procedures for handling problems. One would also have changes in the law from state to state and city to city.

I think the biggest thing for the congregation to consider right now is how whatever problem this is might effect the well-being or survival of the local assembly. If those who have been charged with performing specific duties aren't doing them, it might be time for other members of the local assembly to call a meeting. What could be done and what should be done might be determined by many things other than the Bible. One has to satisfy man's laws also. I hope this helps some.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 17:11 NASB  "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
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erdoc77
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« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2009, 11:17:57 AM »

Wow, I'm kinda of shocked!  The bible is clear on how to handle issues in the church as well as how deacons are suppose to act 1 Tim 3:8.  Deacons as far as I'm concerned are to concern themselves with the church but not to make decisions for the church.  The church body has the final say.  We currentyl are w/o a pastor and the deacon body made a decision for the church.  In my opinion, the deacons are to be a deacon body (office) and NOT a board of directors.  I'm sorry for me when it comes to church matters I need to follow the bible constitution of the church and not man's law.
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nChrist
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« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2009, 11:32:36 AM »

I'm sorry that you misunderstood.

First, you didn't tell me what the problem was. Many things are obviously covered by city and state law where the church is. As an example, the church DOES NOT decide whether they will meet the fire code when the church is built. There would be tons of like examples, and it wouldn't matter whether the congregation wanted to decide the issues or not. The issues would already be settled by man's laws. The Bible also tells us to obey the law.

One could take the example and make it much worse and of greater magnitude in terms of the law. If felony crimes were committed, it wouldn't be the decision of the church congregation as to what would be done (i.e. child molestation). The examples go on and on and on - shocked or not - simple reality.

The same is true for something as simple as water being turned on, getting trash service, getting sewer service, etc., etc. There would be tons of tiny example also.

You still didn't tell me what they decided and for what reason, so I have no idea if what they did was reasonable or not. There are times when decisions have to be made, and much does depend on the severity of the circumstances - shocked or not.
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erdoc77
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« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2009, 11:55:46 AM »

I know this is kind of vague I really don't want to release details.  However, I will say they essentially handed a very suggestive letter of resignation to a minister of education (19 years of service) and minister of music and then wanted to present this at a business meeting as they had resigned.  This all with NO paper trail of wrong doing or deficiencies on either gentleman! Plus no presentation to the church about it.  It leaked out to the church body and now things are a mess! 
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Soldier4Christ
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« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2009, 12:16:41 PM »

It sounds to me like they tried to handle a very sensitive situation while maintaining the integrity of all concerned. Mat 18:15-17 tells us to handle a situation first by going to that individual and then to do so with one or two witnesses, if it is not resolved then and only then it is to be taken before the congregation. We still don't have all of the details here but from what little you have given us it does sound as though that was the steps they were trying to take until it "leaked out".

As Brother Tom said, the most important thing that the people of this church need to keep in mind is the health and survival of that local assembly putting aside personal disagreements when necessary.

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Joh 9:4  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
erdoc77
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« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2009, 12:33:25 PM »

Pastor,
I agree.  However, this is a fairly large church and I'm afraid there has been some very long lasting damage.  I believe it will split the church body.  The deacons I doubt will stand up and admit a wrong-doing in this scenario.   Right or wrong on their decision (which should have been a recommendation) the failed the bible Mt 15-17 ,1 Cor5:2-13 and 2 Cor 5-8 as well as the constitution of our church.  There are a lot of hard feelings which we try to need to recover. 
My original question to this whole thing is what recourse if ANY do we have on the deacon body should they not admit wrong-doing.
Thanks...In Christ..............
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nChrist
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« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2009, 12:35:35 PM »

I know this is kind of vague I really don't want to release details.  However, I will say they essentially handed a very suggestive letter of resignation to a minister of education (19 years of service) and minister of music and then wanted to present this at a business meeting as they had resigned.  This all with NO paper trail of wrong doing or deficiencies on either gentleman! Plus no presentation to the church about it.  It leaked out to the church body and now things are a mess! 

I still wouldn't have a clue about the possibility of any wrong-doing on the part of your deacons.

I was a police officer for 25 years and had the misfortune of becoming involved in some horrendous violations of the law by pastors and other officials of local church bodies. There might be more paper than you know about if something like this is involved. There's also the possibility of an ongoing investigation with orders from a judge about what can be said or not said. From the description you've given, who knows? I do know that the LORD'S WORK in a local assembly can suffer greatly from the inappropriate actions of one person. I've seen it first hand in 25 years of law enforcement more times than I want to count. They didn't have any choice but to involve law enforcement, and then many actions are controlled by the law or ordered by a judge. If this is what's happening, the first priority is to prevent additional victims, and it usually progresses to:  adequate investigation without interference, fair trial without trying the case in the press, justice - AND finally the least damage as possible to the LORD'S WORK. Things are NECESSARILY NOT TRANSPARENT in many cases - first for the benefit of the accused - second for an appropriate prosecution. Without any other details, who could possibly know? In many cases, people not knowing is one of the priorities of the investigation, especially if there are more than one suspect or a strong possibility that one or more people are innocent of any wrong-doing. Broadcasting details is most properly done after a person gets a fair trial, NOT for the news media to try the case before the person has even been charged. This would at least be the procedures of competent investigators.
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erdoc77
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« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2009, 12:37:16 PM »

PS Pastor,
Trust me,  they were not following Mt 18:15-17.  There was NO paper trail, documentation or reprimands.  They made this strong suggestion on their own.
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Soldier4Christ
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« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2009, 01:03:37 PM »

 
My original question to this whole thing is what recourse if ANY do we have on the deacon body should they not admit wrong-doing.

IF they did indeed do wrong then again Mat 18:15-17 applies to them also.
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nChrist
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« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2009, 01:17:27 PM »

PS Pastor,
Trust me,  they were not following Mt 18:15-17.  There was NO paper trail, documentation or reprimands.  They made this strong suggestion on their own.

You would need to remember that only extremely minor things would be handled by church discipline. Criminal violations would not be handled by the church unless it was very minor and appropriate law enforcement officials authorized it. Otherwise, crimes would be handled by appropriate law enforcement agencies and tried in the court of jurisdiction. It wouldn't be the business of the congregation at all. The business of the congregation would come to play in NON-CRIMINAL violations like being late or not showing up for work. We don't live in a part of the world where the church is the judge, jury, and executioner. At this point, it doesn't appear that you have any information to indicate the deacons did anything wrong without getting huge amounts of more information. Maybe you can't get that information right now, so I would suggest that you first wait.

What are your courses of action if things are shown to be unreasonable and against the constitution of the church? Only the legally enforceable portions of the church constitution deemed to be a legally binding CIVIL CONTRACT under man's law. If this involves a criminal offense, it will be handled by a criminal court under man's law. Regardless, what you can do as a recourse is governed by man's civil or criminal law.
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MDavidson
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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2009, 10:25:37 PM »

erdoc77 -- I have been in two different churches that experienced something like you are describing.  When people get aggravated and vent their anger amongst the congregation, it can cause a church to split.  Rumors and gossip get started and before you know it the snowball turned into an avalanche.  I would follow the biblical advise that Pastor provided and address your aggravation one on one with the deacons and express your concerns about splitting the church.  If your view is shared by others, the elders need to address it.  When a minister leaves and people in the congregation are attached to him, a lot of people do leave.  It may be hard to realize, but sometimes it is God moving people around to fit His plans.   
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Misty Davidson
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« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2009, 05:30:40 PM »

erdoc77
I think MDavidson has mentioned it well.  What you have heard that has happened is strictly that, what you have heard.  If you in turn vent your frustrations to another member all you are doing is spreading dissent.  You should request some time with one of the deacons and talk with them about what is going on.

One thing to also remember is that the role of the Deacon is a leadership role as well.  They are to care for the church and take over the jobs that are going on in the church.  The Apostles called forth from the congregation to choose some men of their church to handle the day to day activities of the church so that the Apostles did not have to worry about it.  This puts them into a role of making decisions.  It is also the position of the Deacons to be the representatives of the congregation to the Pastor(s).  The Deacons are not simply caretakers of the church property or something like that. 
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Sincerely
Brother Jerry

------
I am like most fathers.  I, like most, want more for my children than I have.

I am unlike most fathers.  What I would like my children to have more of is crowns to lay at Jesus feet.
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