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Question: Can A Christian Lose Their Salvation?
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Author Topic: Can a Christian Lose Their Salvation?  (Read 28324 times)
cris
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« Reply #90 on: January 15, 2004, 07:32:21 PM »



Where does it say they weren't?  

The kingdom of heaven will be like 10 virgins.  Who IN the kingdom of heaven is unsaved?  There is a reason the parable is about "virgins" and not about "men" or women".  Virgins are not defiled - they're "pure".

All of these virgins WERE prepared but some more so than others.  5 planned for His tarrying and 5 did not (the wise and the foolish).  Not all saved people are wise but they're saved.  (Be wise as serpents and gentle as doves.)  




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Kris777
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« Reply #91 on: January 15, 2004, 10:02:37 PM »

My intupritation in blue or my words.

I read some pretty interesting verses in John that are about salvation that I think you all will like.

John 3:27 "John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven."

This is when Jesus is in Samaria and tells this women to give Him a drink of water.
John 4:13 -14 " Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."

The water that Jesus is talking about is believeing in Him it is the water springing up into everlasting life.  So when Jesus says that you must be born again by water and of the spirit He is saying that you must believe in Him and have the Holy Spirit to be saved.  He is not talking about a literal water baptism, but a spiritual one.


John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

John 6:33-35 " For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.  Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst."

John 6:40 " And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47-51 " Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.  I am that bread of life. Your father did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.  This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.  I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Jesus is not talking about literally eating bread and drinking wine.  He is talking about spiritualy eating Him, or accepting Him.  When we eat bread and drink wine in church that is in remembrance of Him.  We don't literally have to eat bread and drink wine and say that this becomes his body to become saved.

My favorite one. This is after many of the people that were following Jesus left.
John 6:67-69 " Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.  And we believe and are sure that thou are that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Isn't the above verse awesome?! I think that it answers micheal_legna's question if a christain can loose salvation, he wanted a bible verse to prove that you can't and God showed me one.  The people that left were the ones that followed Jesus and then left Him.  They were the ones that were not saved and were only interested in Him for the miracles that He could do.  God then asked His deciples if they would leave Him.  Simon Peter replied that we are saved and have eternal life and that we will not leave you, because we are sure that you are our salvation.  So once you become saved you DO NOT leave God. Smiley
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Romans 10:9  "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth thy Lord Jesus and believe in thy heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Jesus is our first, last and only hope.  Without Him we would be nothing.
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« Reply #92 on: January 16, 2004, 09:26:40 AM »

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Isn't the above verse awesome?!


A BIG AMEN!
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« Reply #93 on: January 16, 2004, 02:22:35 PM »


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John 3:27 "John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven."

This means we have to be given salvation as a gift we cannot earn it>  I never said we could earn it I only said after being given it we could throw it away.

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This is when Jesus is in Samaria and tells this women to give Him a drink of water.
John 4:13 -14 " Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."

The water that Jesus is talking about is believeing in Him it is the water springing up into everlasting life.  So when Jesus says that you must be born again by water and of the spirit He is saying that you must believe in Him and have the Holy Spirit to be saved.  He is not talking about a literal water baptism, but a spiritual one.

Once again we get to the meaning of what it is to believe in Christ.  If you read all of the New Testament you see that it is not a mere mental ascent to the knowledge that Christ served as sacrificial lamb.  We must also accept Him as shepherd and door, we must take up our cross and follow Him.  If we stop following Him we stop believing in Him and we lose our salvation.  

We are warned if we put our hands to the plow and look back we are not worthy of the Kingdom of God.  

Luke 9:62
62And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

This is clearly talking about someone who decides to follow Christ and even begins following Him, yet does turn away.  Some who is saved and yet loses that salvation.

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John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

Again we must hear the Word and that is not just listening but understanding and taking those words into our heart making them part of our life, which all involve works in combination with faith to make it a living faith.  But we all know works can cease and so faith can die and we thus lose our salvation.


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John 6:33-35 " For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.  Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst."

John 6:40 " And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

We have to come to Him and believe on Him, both coming and believing include works on our part.  Where works are they can cease and we can throw away the gift of salvation.  The choice of these verses by you indicates you have fallen into the standard Protestant error of interpreting believing on someone as merely discussing faith alone.  It takes so much more than just faith to believe on someone.  James clearly makes the point that faith alone is dead, you must be willing to put that faith into action to make it a living faith.  But how long can a faith be inactive before it is not a real faith?  How long can a faith live without works before it is a dead faith as James describes that of the demons?  A day?  A minute?  A microsecond?  Additionally, other works must even precede faith such as repentance, which is more than just a mental decision it is a turning around of ones life.  

Whether faith and works come together, or one comes first and the other must inherently follow; it is clear that faith that exists alone is not a real faith and so it is not a saving faith.  So faith alone does not save.  In fact faith alone is an oxymoron.

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John 6:47-51 " Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.  I am that bread of life. Your father did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.  This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.  I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Here we have to “believe on” again and “eat of this bread”, both - or else you have two ways to be saved.  But both are again works we must do to accept the gift.  The point that there are two different things we must do in this one verse should not be skimmed over to lightly as there are dozens of similar verses in the New Testament which make it clear there is a lot expected of us in a proper acceptance of the free gift of salvation.

The following is a partial list of things required of us to be saved.

We have to follow Jesus to be saved.  (Matthew 10:38, John 10:27-28, Hebrews 5:9
We have to obey the Gospel to be saved.  (James 1:21-22, 2 Thessalonians 1:8, 1 Peter 4:17)
We have to do works of mercy to be saved.  (Matthew 25:31-46)
We have to be Baptized by the water and the spirit to be saved.  (John 3:5)
We have to do the will of the Father to be saved.  (Matthew 7:21)
We have to love one another to be saved.  (2 John 5-6, 1 John 4:7-21)
We have to obey the commandments to be saved.  (John 14:15-24, John 15:9-10, 1 John 5:2-3)
We have to repent to be saved.  (James 5:20, Luke 13:3, Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19)
We have to discern Christ in the bread and wine to have eternal life.  (John 6:54, 1 Cor 11:29)
We have to do good works to be saved.  (Romans 2:6-7, 1 Timothy 6:18-19)
We need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.  (Philippians 2:12)
We have to continue in the proper doctrine to be saved.  (1 Tim 4:16)

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Jesus is not talking about literally eating bread and drinking wine.  He is talking about spiritualy eating Him, or accepting Him.  When we eat bread and drink wine in church that is in remembrance of Him.  We don't literally have to eat bread and drink wine and say that this becomes his body to become saved.

This is wrong but we can get into the true presence in another thread if you want.

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My favorite one. This is after many of the people that were following Jesus left.
John 6:67-69 " Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.  And we believe and are sure that thou are that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Isn't the above verse awesome?! I think that it answers micheal_legna's question if a christain can loose salvation, he wanted a bible verse to prove that you can't and God showed me one.  The people that left were the ones that followed Jesus and then left Him.  They were the ones that were not saved and were only interested in Him for the miracles that He could do.  God then asked His deciples if they would leave Him.  Simon Peter replied that we are saved and have eternal life and that we will not leave you, because we are sure that you are our salvation.  So once you become saved you DO NOT leave God. Smiley

This doesn’t prove we can’t leave it just proves it doesn’t make any sense to leave.  Peter doesn’t say he can’t leave – he is just incredulous at the thought of leaving.
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michael_legna
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« Reply #94 on: January 16, 2004, 03:55:51 PM »


My response will be in two parts.

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OK we can go round and round on this and we agree on some point and disagree on others that we have discussed.  We both agree that as Christians we should have a "living faith" as you put it.  I take that as referring also to my comments of how we as Christians should be doing works based in our faith...with love and compassion.  I believe we pretty much agree on that.  

It is more than “Christians should be doing works based in our faith”  it is that without those works the faith is not real and is not a saving faith so faith alone cannot save.

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I think we have to first take a look at what salvation is and what it is represented by in the Bible.

We can look at John and find some answers to that.  All of the verse below are what Jesus has to say about it directly.
John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life."
John 6:47 "He who believes has eternal life."
John 8:24 "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins."
John 11:25-26 "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die."

This is a good start but to have a true understanding of salvation you must include every verse that refers to it so that you know your interpretation is consistent with them all.  

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There are but 4 quotes from Jesus that say a good bit.  We see that if we believe in Jesus we shall have eternal life...and this is expanded upn that if we shall believe in Jesus we shall live, even we physically die.  And that if we believe in Him we shall never die.

If one looks at these verses only you might be tempted to come to this conclusion.  However, this is just the type of quick rush to judgment we must avoid when we interpret scripture and which I warned about just above.  It does not cover all the scriptures that say we must do certain works which when joined to our faith as to properly accept the free gift.  I can provide them if you would like to see these verses but I will first move on to show how the verse you provide should be interpreted to allow for a works and faith based acceptance of the gift.

First we must realize that a single verse can contain the truth but not the whole truth about a subject.  Take for instance your first verse.  John 6:40 would indicate that all we have to do is believe in Him to do the Father’s will.  But John 6:40 certainly cannot be contrary to 1 John 3:23.
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.  which seems to add the additional requirement that we love one another.  They do not disagree as long as you interpret the first in light of the second.  A doctrine based on John 6:40 is incomplete, it must be based on both and therefore all scripture.

Similar issues can be addressed with relation to the other verse you offer but another problem also exists and that is what does it mean to believe in Christ.  If we accept belief as a mere mental ascent to the fact that Jesus in His role as sacrificial lamb died for our sins, then we might be tempted to interpret these verses to support a doctrine of simple faith.  But scripture never tells us to limit our belief to just that one role.  We must also accept Christ in His other roles which have more active requirements.  His role as shepherd requires that we follow Him.  His role as advocate requires us to appeal to Him.  His role as chief cornerstone requires us to build our life on His teachings.  His role as King and Lord requires us to obey Him.  And there are many more.  All of these require works to be part of the response to the free gift of grace to truly believe in Him.

END OF PART 1
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michael_legna
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« Reply #95 on: January 16, 2004, 03:57:07 PM »


Here is part 2

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There are a few verses in which Jesus uses some analogies to represent salvation.
References to being born
John 3:3 "Verily, verily, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
John 3:5 "Verily, verily, I say to you unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.  That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

These two are referencing being born again.  This being representative of showing that we are born into sin and through Jesus we can have another birth.  One that is born of the Spirit.

Note that it says spirit and water, we must be baptized to be born again.  That is an act of man, a work.  Where there are works, works can cease.  Just as circumcision can be made uncircumcision so we can deny our baptism and rebirth.

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Some other verses we can see Jesus refering to salvation include
John 4:13-14 "Everyone who drinks of this water shall thirst again; but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."
John 6:27 "Do not work for the food which  perishes, but the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man shall give to you..." And when asked "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus replied:
John 6:29 "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
John 6:35 "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst."
Jesus mentions the bread bit again in
John 6:51 "I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever"
John 8:35 "And the slave does not remain in the house forever, the Son does remain forever."
John 10:26-28 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep.  My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me, and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of my hand."

Now these are just verses pulled from John.  And they are also only verses the Jesus Himself spoke.  From Jesus' own words we can see that by being born again, saved, we shall see the kingdom of God.  And upon the rebirth we are born of the Spirit...something we are not born of on our fleshly birth.  

We can see that Jesus states that everyone who drinks of the water that He gives will never thirst.  This does not state that we will not be thirsty as long as we keep drinking.  But that we will never thirst.  We see Jesus refer to Himself as the bread of life and if anyone eats of that bread then they shall live forever.  Not until they quit nibbling or get hungry again...we shall live forever and never hunger.
We also see that Jesus will remain with us forever, unlike the slave who leaves the house.  And as the Great Shepherd, Jesus protects us and gives us eternal life, and that protects us so that we shall never perish.

Again if we were to interpret these verses in isolation we might jump to that conclusion but we must make certain that our interpretation of these verses can be made consistent with our interpretation of all verses.  You can see a partial list of verses that show we must do certain works to properly accept the gift of salvation in my posted response to Kris777 above.

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Now being a good little Protestant and approaching hermeneutics we would first look at what Jesus had to say about things and the see what the apostles and other authors would state concerning that.  

I agree that we should always make certain that any doctrine we espouse should be visible in the words in red so to speak, but so far the doctrine of eternal salvation is not.  So lets look at a few more of Christ’s discussions of salvation.

What did Christ say when He was specifically asked what we had to do to be saved?

Obey the Commandments.  Matthew 19:16 and Mark 10:17

Jesus makes it clear that He requires us to obey the commandments.  (We see in other verses this is not to the letter of the law but by the spirit of the law).  We know He is not being sarcastic here as some Protestant commentaries insinuate because He goes on to say that it is harder for a rich man to enter heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.  If we are saved by faith alone that must mean that it is harder for a rich man to have faith than it is for a poor man.  That makes no sense at all.  What is harder for a rich man is to give up the pleasures of this world as his god and accept Christ in their place.  He needs to turn away from this world and follow Christ.  This repenting of greed is a work.  Where there are works there can be a failure of those works and a resultant loss of salvation.

Parable of the Prodigal Son  Luke 15:11-32

This is clearly a case where a son, an heir (someone already saved) left the Father.  Turned his back and choose the world over his family (cast aside the free gift).  But later repented and was welcomed back with a fine robe 9like the one we will be given in heaven).  He was dead (lost/damned) and is now alive (saved/reborn).  Jesus tells this story of searching for those who are lost a number of times, the lost sheep, the lost coin, etc.  You cannot lose what you did not already have.  These items all represent people who were saved and lost and yet were found again, showing we can lose our salvation and be saved again.

The Parable of the Vine John 15:6

Here we have a branch that is a member of the vine (saved), which even though it is purged by the Father to bear fruit (given grace), when it does not bear fruit (produce works) it is cut off (loses salvation) and cast into the fire (condemned to hell).  And notice why it is condemned to hell, for lack of works.

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And if we look at James for example we see that he is discussing faith and works and not salvation and works or salvation and faith.  And discusses as I had mentioned how we should show our faith through our works and how our faith will be perfected through our works.  We see this also reference in Pauls letter to the Corinthians, 2 Cor 5:20 "Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us."

You can keep saying that James is not about salvation but I have plainly showed you that it is and you turned the discussion away from it rather than address the points I made so I am not going to let you just say this uncontested.

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We could go on and I could pull more verses and quotes from Jesus from the other Gospels that support and say similar to what is written in John.  That the life Jesus gives is eternal, and once we eat of the bread of life we shall not hunger, and if we drink of the water Jesus gives us we shall never thirst.  And to date you have provided no scripture to state contrary that I have not been able to show you scripturally that it did not reflect upon a lost salvation.

I haven’t seen one instance where you DID show that a verse I provided was not about the possibility of losing salvation.

END OF PART 2
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« Reply #96 on: January 17, 2004, 10:40:30 AM »

PART 1
Michael
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You can keep saying that James is not about salvation but I have plainly showed you that it is and you turned the discussion away from it rather than address the points I made so I am not going to let you just say this uncontested.
and
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I haven’t seen one instance where you DID show that a verse I provided was not about the possibility of losing salvation.
This is why I had stated in the beginning of my last post that we could go round and round about it.  And we agree on some points and disagree on others.

I have shown you what James is referring to and discussing on several posts.  And it was you who did not accept that.  That is what you want to believe and that is fine.  I may think you are wrong, and that is fine as well.  We can argue the point until we are blue in the finger tips from typing.  And if you want to go back and limit the scope of the discussion to James we can do that as well.  May be in a different thread.

But the discussion is about if a Christian can lose their salvation.  And quite honestly you have failed to provide 1 verse the implicitly states that a Christian can be saved, then lost, then saved again, again, and again, and again.  Instead you have provided other scripture that "may" elude to that but may also refer to something else (and so far has when reading the verse and putting it in the light of God through His Word).  

Now as to your other responses.
Let me start by your comments about John 6:40 if interpreted "my" way would be contrary to  1 John 3:23.  Which if you read 1 John you will see that it is not contrary.
1 John 3:22-24 "and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.  And this is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.  And the one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him, And we know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."
Now earlier in 1 John 2:3-6 "And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.  The one who says, 'I have come to know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected.  By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked."

We see that John states that if we have the truth in us, the truth being the Truth of Christ, then we should be doing things accordingly.  That we ougth to walk as Jesus walked.  And that as we do things that are pleasing to God then God will grow in us.  Again there is no reference to losing salvation here.  These verses show what Jesus had said that we are to be born again.  And with this new birth John states that we should be righteous (1 John 2:29 "If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousnessis born of Him.")  John also toward the end of Chapter 2 is warning that there are antichrists already arisen.  And that they have gone out from even among the "Christians" but they are liars.  And we know from some of the previous verses some of the lying that John is talking about, talking the talk but not walking the walk.

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But scripture never tells us to limit our belief to just that one role.  We must also accept Christ in His other roles which have more active requirements.  His role as shepherd requires that we follow Him.  His role as advocate requires us to appeal to Him.  His role as chief cornerstone requires us to build our life on His teachings.  His role as King and Lord requires us to obey Him.  And there are many more.  All of these require works to be part of the response to the free gift of grace to truly believe in Him.
You are correct.  However in order to accept Christ as his role as Savior and thus be saved, we must only believe.  And once we have accepted Christ in the role of Savior can we then even acknowledge Christ as King, Advocate, Teacher, Shepherd.  And as I pointed out Christ himself told us all that we need to do to accept Him as Savior is to believe.  And Christ Himself tells us that His role of Savior is a one time deal.  One that we will never thirst for again.  

In reference to the young rich man Matt 19, Mark 10, Luke 18
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Jesus makes it clear that He requires us to obey the commandments.  (We see in other verses this is not to the
letter of the law but by the spirit of the law).  We know He is not being sarcastic here as some Protestant commentaries insinuate because He goes on to say that it is harder for a rich man to enter heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.  If we are saved by faith alone that must mean that it is harder for a rich man to have faith than it is for a poor man.  That makes no sense at all.  What is harder for a rich man is to give up the pleasures of this world as his god and accept Christ in their place.  He needs to turn away from this world and follow Christ.  This repenting of greed is a work.  Where there are works there can be a failure of those works and a resultant loss of salvation.

"That makes no sense at all" how untrue.  If our faith is putting trust in God alone then it very well could be harder
for a person who has their trust in the riches of the world to give it up.  This trust is shown in Mark 10:24 "Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter the kingdom of God!"  Here we see that Jesus is contrasting the trust of the rich young ruler in riches and worldly goods, to that of trusting in God.  

END PT 1
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« Reply #97 on: January 17, 2004, 11:40:20 AM »

PART 2

Quote
We have to obey the Gospel to be saved.  (James 1:21-22, 2 Thessalonians 1:8, 1 Peter 4:17)
James 1:21 - Put aside all filthiness and wickedness, in humility received the word that is implanted in use.  Be doers of the word and not just hearers who delude themselves.  Receive the word as is listen to it, believe it, accept it, receive it.  Once we receive it we should let it show in our actions...be doers of the word...because the word should then direct our actions.  If we have received it then we will desire to walk according to Jesus.

2 Thes 1:8 - God will deal out retribution to those who do not know Him and those that who do not obey the gospel.  But read on a bit.
2 Thes 1:10-12"wehn He comes to be glorified in His sains on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed-for our testimony to you was believed.  To this end also we pray for you always that our God may count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power, in order that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ"

Hmmm so who do you think Paul is talking about here?  Once Jesus came there are but 3 catagories of people in the world.  There are Christians that follow Jesus.  Those that do not know God, the Gentiles and other Pagans.  Those that know God but are not following/believing the gospel of Jesus, in other words the Jews.  Paul even goes on to show somehting that James hits upon, he mentions work of faith and then also that Jesus should be glorified in us.  Again our works should be for the glorification of Jesus, and not for ourselves...which is what you are trying to state in that we can lose our salvation if we dont keep our faith up through works.  

1 Peter 4:17
what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
But read some more
1 Peter 4:14-19 "If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.  By no means let any of you suffer as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesom meddler; but if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not feel ashamed, but in that name let him glorify God.  For it is time for judgement to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel fo God? And if it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved, what will become of the godless man and the sinner? Therefore, let those also who suffer according to the will of God entrust thier souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right."
AMEN.  Let all that suffer in the name of God entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right and what is God's will.  A faithful Creator who sent His Son and His Son said that if I, a lowly sinner, believe in Him and drink of the water which He gives I shall never thirst again.
Again the word is that we must glorify God in all that we do.  Again the word states we must trust in God and do things to glorify God.  We as righteous people will go through hard times, we may be persecuted, we could be stoned even as Paul was, but if we believe in what God has told us, and we are doing God's will, then we can put our Trust in God to allow us to percevere and rise up and above it all, and be comfortable in our seat next to Him.

You said this to Kris
Quote
there are dozens of similar verses in the New Testament which make it clear there is a lot expected of us in a proper acceptance of the free gift of salvation.
Although true it is not complete.  It is true that salvation is a free gift, freely given by God.  There is but one thing we must do in order to receive that gift however.  And that is to believe, and accept it.  God's will is that then use that gift to glorify His name.  To use our salvation to proclaim to the world the truth.  And we should do that by letting our faith show in our works.  Let God be glorified in everything we do.  However not one verse specificly states that we can lose our salvation, when there is a host of verses that stated our salvation is forever and will never go away.

I provided you a list from just John of what Jesus Himself said about it.  We can continue on and go into the other books as well.  And we can find others that would state that our salvation is forever.  But we will not find any that state it can be "revoked".

And I am sorry Michael but you have not provided any verse that has shown specifically that our salvation is dependant upon the works we do.  Jesus used the reference of being born again for a reason.  You can only be born once in the physical sense just as you can only be born once in the spiritual sense as well.  


If we can lose and then regain our salvation through works of faith or the lack there of, the our works are not for the glorification of Jesus but for ourselves.  There is no unit of measure or balancing act to warrant any degree of salvation.  Jesus does not state that you have to believe and then say 12 Hail Mary's to accomidate for the past sins.  Nor is there any reference that to attone for the sin of say lying you have to go and tell 8 truths.  If our salvation was dependant upon works in any fashion then Jesus would have said that and there would have to be some "unit of measure".  But there is none and Jesus does not state there is.  

END
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« Reply #98 on: January 17, 2004, 05:42:16 PM »


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This is why I had stated in the beginning of my last post that we could go round and round about it.  And we agree on some points and disagree on others.

but we aren't going around and around.  You showed me verses that you said showed James wasn't talking about salvation and I addressed them offering alternative interpretations.  Then I offered verses showing that James was talking about salvation and rather than address them you decide we have to change the subject.  I don't see the circle in that at all.   All I see is you unable to support the contention you made about an error in my interpretation.

Quote
I have shown you what James is referring to and discussing on several posts.  And it was you who did not accept that.  

I did not accept it because all you ever discussed was your side of the argument refusing to even consider or address my counter points.

Quote
And if you want to go back and limit the scope of the discussion to James we can do that as well.  May be in a different thread.

I am focusing the discussion on James with you because as the discussion developed it was because I claimed that James is discussing salvation and there is a point to be made for losing salvation based on James.  You denied my point that James is about salvation and so we are discussing it to determine if it is or not and then we can see where the link is to loss of salvation.  There is no need to move on until you respond to the points I made rather than avoid them in hopes of finding an easier point for your position.

Quote
But the discussion is about if a Christian can lose their salvation.  

The issue of salvation being by faith alone or not is central to whether a person can lose their salvation so we are still on the topic.

Quote
And quite honestly you have failed to provide 1 verse the implicitly states that a Christian can be saved, then lost, then saved again, again, and again, and again.  Instead you have provided other scripture that "may" elude to that but may also refer to something else (and so far has when reading the verse and putting it in the light of God through His Word).  

But that is the proper way to interpret God's word.  You should never accept a single verse no matter how clear or implicit it may appear on an issue.  You must interpret all scripture in light of all other scripture and then see what scripture in it's entirety "alludes to" as you put it.

You missed my point about John 6:40 and 1 John 3:23.   my point was that if you rely on just John 6:40 you would assume all we have to do is believe in Jesus, but John clearly says we must believe in Him aND love one another.  So you cannot try to build doctrine on the idea of finding one verse that "implicitly says" something as you berate me for not doing.  You must always compare those verses to more complete descriptions found in other verses or in groups of other verse that may "allude" to a different interpretation.  I know this idea may seem foriegn to you but it is the underlying error to all of Protestantism, and the idea of sola scriptura and the interpretation of scripture by individuals and has ultimately led to the confusion we see in the 30,000 different denominations of today.

Quote
You are correct.  However in order to accept Christ as his role as Savior and thus be saved, we must only believe.  

That is just burying the question.  Once again we have to ask believe in what?  No where does scripture tell us that we only have to believe in Christ as sacrificial lamb and that is all.  If that were true all of the New Testament could have been put in one or two short verses.  Instead there is verse after verse which say we have to do this and that in order to be saved.  Why is it you have not addressed the list I have directed you to which contains these verses?  How do you make these requirements all from scripture fit in with a faith alone doctrine?

Quote
And as I pointed out Christ himself told us all that we need to do to accept Him as Savior is to believe.  And Christ Himself tells us that His role of Savior is a one time deal.  One that we will never thirst for again.  
And I responded to those verse already - time for you to repsond to my interpretations of those verses showing where they are wrong and to the verses I have offered, rather than ignoring them because you cannot make them fit into the faith alone doctrine.


Quote
"That makes no sense at all" how untrue.  If our faith is putting trust in God alone then it very well could be harder
for a person who has their trust in the riches of the world to give it up.  

That is mixing apples and oranges, the rich man is not trusting in riches to save him.  The love man feels for riches and the love man feels for God are two different things.  One does not fill the same need as the other but man sometimes picks the immediate gratification of the world over the long term good of his being.  He is not trusting nor does he have faith in his riches; he merely loves them more than God.  You cannot compare the love man had for this world with the faith we are to have in God.  Love and faith are two entirely different types of things and the parable is contrasting man's love for riches with his love for God, not his faith in God.
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« Reply #99 on: January 17, 2004, 09:59:13 PM »

You can lose your religion.

Once Saved Always Saved.

The Crusader

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« Reply #100 on: January 17, 2004, 10:30:11 PM »

You can lose your religion.

Once Saved Always Saved.

The Crusader

DITTO Grin

Yah, me too. DITTO, kind of.


  I think that people that are saved will stick with God and when they do wonder away they will come close to Him again.  But I believe that you can't loose salvation and what micheal_legna is saying about faith and works I think that if you are saved faith and works should go hand and hand.
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Romans 10:9  "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth thy Lord Jesus and believe in thy heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Jesus is our first, last and only hope.  Without Him we would be nothing.
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« Reply #101 on: January 19, 2004, 09:34:04 AM »

You can lose your religion.

Once Saved Always Saved.

The Crusader

DITTO Grin

Yah, me too. DITTO, kind of.


  I think that people that are saved will stick with God and when they do wonder away they will come close to Him again.  But I believe that you can't loose salvation and what micheal_legna is saying about faith and works I think that if you are saved faith and works should go hand and hand.

That is really my only point - that faith and works go hand in hand.  That those people who teach salvation by faith alone don't even believe it themselves.  

Faith cannot exist alone, at least not a true saving faith.  Because when it is alone it is no different that what the demons have and that type of faith isn't a proper acceptance of the free gift.  So the doctrine of salvation through faith alone is inconsistent with a deep understanding of scripture and revealed as a man made error.
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« Reply #102 on: January 19, 2004, 10:40:24 AM »


PART 2

Quote
Quote
We have to obey the Gospel to be saved.  (James 1:21-22, 2 Thessalonians 1:8, 1 Peter 4:17)

James 1:21 - Put aside all filthiness and wickedness, in humility received the word that is implanted in use.  Be doers of the word and not just hearers who delude themselves.  Receive the word as is listen to it, believe it, accept it, receive it.  Once we receive it we should let it show in our actions...be doers of the word...because the word should then direct our actions.  If we have received it then we will desire to walk according to Jesus.

Don’t you see that you want works to be just fruits of our faith but to get there you first have to have us perform works.  We have to repent or as James puts it “put aside” our old way, receive the Word which is implanted through use, in other words we don’t fully accept the Word until we put it into use through works.  

All of your terms  - “listen to it, believe it, accept it, receive it” are all acts of man – they show we must actively do works before we even have a true faith.

Quote
2 Thes 1:8 - God will deal out retribution to those who do not know Him and those that who do not obey the gospel.  But read on a bit.
2 Thes 1:10-12"wehn He comes to be glorified in His sains on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed-for our testimony to you was believed.  To this end also we pray for you always that our God may count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power, in order that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ"

Hmmm so who do you think Paul is talking about here?  Once Jesus came there are but 3 catagories of people in the world.  There are Christians that follow Jesus.  Those that do not know God, the Gentiles and other Pagans.  Those that know God but are not following/believing the gospel of Jesus, in other words the Jews.  

You equate following with believing when you say “following/believing” but they are not the same thing.  Following is obedience, believing is faith.  Both are required to be a true disciple of Jesus and that discipleship is required for a true acceptance of the free gift but you have been arguing against this all along.  

Quote
Paul even goes on to show somehting that James hits upon, he mentions work of faith and then also that Jesus should be glorified in us.  Again our works should be for the glorification of Jesus, and not for ourselves...which is what you are trying to state in that we can lose our salvation if we dont keep our faith up through works.  

But I do not claim that our works are for anything other than the glorification of Jesus.  If you are doing works just to retain your salvation then you are doing them for the wrong reason and they are not works of love.  It is like the old argument that you should believe in God because if you are right then you God will be pleased with you and you will go to heaven.  But if you are wrong and there is no God then you didn’t lose anything.  That type of logic is in error as God would see right through it and that type of belief (hedging your bets) would not get you into heaven.  That is not what I am espousing.  I am saying that if we respond with a loving acceptance of the free gift we will do good works.  The reason for these works is not for the individuals those works are directed towards, otherwise anyone who did those works would be saved.  But we do them to glorify Christ, that is what makes them a loving response.  Now in regards to losing our salvation – if we continue to do these works with the right intention, we continue to glorify Jesus.  If for some reason we stop doing them we stop glorifying Christ, we stop confessing Him in our actions and so we lose our salvation.  I realize this does not show we can stop doing those works, it is only to show that proper light to see them in so you cannot claim that the works or lack of them in and of itself is attempting to glorify ourselves and thus maintain salvation.

Quote
1 Peter 4:17
what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
But read some more
1 Peter 4:14-19 "If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.  By no means let any of you suffer as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesom meddler; but if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not feel ashamed, but in that name let him glorify God.  For it is time for judgement to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel fo God? And if it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved, what will become of the godless man and the sinner? Therefore, let those also who suffer according to the will of God entrust thier souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right."

AMEN.  Let all that suffer in the name of God entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right and what is God's will.  A faithful Creator who sent His Son and His Son said that if I, a lowly sinner, believe in Him and drink of the water which He gives I shall never thirst again.

But don’t get the grammar wrong here!  We are not reviled because God’s spirit rests upon us.  It is the reverse.  God’s spirit rests upon us because we accept the reviling.  That is why it is a blessing.  Later we also see it is not God who is doing what is right.  It is us, doing what is right by cooperating with God’s grace.  So often Calvinist twist the grammar to try to show that the doing right is a sign of our faith.  This verse makes it clear that we are doing right by suffering willingly accepting it as God’s will, submitting our own will to His.  This submission in and of itself is a work.  If it was God doing all these things where would judgment come into play?  On what basis would God be judging us if not on our submission to His will and the faithful acceptance of the trials associated with declaring ourselves to be one of His.

Quote
Again the word is that we must glorify God in all that we do.  Again the word states we must trust in God and do things to glorify God.  We as righteous people will go through hard times, we may be persecuted, we could be stoned even as Paul was, but if we believe in what God has told us, and we are doing God's will, then we can put our Trust in God to allow us to percevere and rise up and above it all, and be comfortable in our seat next to Him.

Can't you hear yourself?  We must glorify God, that is us acting – works.  We must do God’s will.  We must persevere.  All works.  Then you imply the consequences if we don’t.  If we don’t do these things we cannot put our trust in God.  This does not say to you that we can lose our salvation?
 
Quote
I provided you a list from just John of what Jesus Himself said about it.  We can continue on and go into the other books as well.  And we can find others that would state that our salvation is forever.  But we will not find any that state it can be "revoked".

You provided verses from John and I showed you alternate interpretations for them.  We have already seen verses that say it can be "revoked", in fact every verse we have discussed can be seen when properly interpreted in the light of other scripture to support the idea, we just disagree on the interpretation.  

You interpret them one verse at a time, in isolation, ignoring the verses about works role in accepting the gift, so that your literal interpretation of a few verses can stand against the verses that clearly state we can lose our salvation.  

I interpret the verses that say we can lose our salvation literally, based on that interpretations agreement with the role of works in accepting the free gift and I do not take your verses literally.  

It is up to each of us to decide which approach is the more consistent.  But since you don’t want to even address the verses I offered up to interpretation while I addressed all of yours the answer is clear to me.

END OF PART 2
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« Reply #103 on: January 20, 2004, 06:53:15 PM »

Quote from Michael,

"All of your terms  - “listen to it, believe it, accept it, receive it” are all acts of man – they show we must actively do works before we even have a true faith."

Our believing is God's work.

Joh 6:28  "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."
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« Reply #104 on: January 20, 2004, 11:42:00 PM »

Quote from Michael,

"All of your terms  - “listen to it, believe it, accept it, receive it” are all acts of man – they show we must actively do works before we even have a true faith."

Our believing is God's work.

Joh 6:28  "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."


pilgrim,

Quote
Our believing is God's work.

Christians believe this, but michael doesn't, this is why he keeps goping around in circles with his arguments.

The Roman Catholic church does not teach this, they teach salvation is not the work God does, it is the result of what man does for God.

This is why, he fails to see, the error of the RC church in killing Christians for disagreeing with his church.

Beware of men who speak with a cloven tongue.


Blessings,

Petro
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