Can a Christian Lose Their Salvation?

[michael_legna]

Forgive me - I’m a newbie – but I must interject.
You guys argue WAY too much, and you make this WAY too hard.  Jesus said His yoke is easy!  If you really (really, really REALLY) believe that Jesus is who He says he is – that he was born of a virgin, that He is God incarnate, and if you believe in Him and have invited Him into your heart, - then you are saved!

Sorry but you make it way to simple.  The Gospel makes it clear that to truly beleive in Jesus we must do more than accept Christ as our sacrificial lamb.  We must also accept Him
in all His roles, including shepherd, we must take up our cross and follow Him, we must obey the Gospel.  The simplistic altar call approach to Christianity is what is being debated here and I hope if you follow along you will learn the error of it.

Salvation is a GIFT.  If God gives us something – Is he going to take it back?

No He won't take it back but we can throw it away.

if Jesus is REALLY in your heart, then you ARE saved.  HE says so!  That is His promise!  How wonderful is that???!  Do I have to list scores of Bible verses?  NO!  If you believe, you know it is true!

But He is not in your heart unless you believe the right things, that implies understanding and that is only achieved through knowledge of the scriptures.  He who is ignorant of the Gospel is ignorant of Christ.

[michael_legna]

You never corrected anything.

I most certainly did.  You presented a formula you claimed represented my position.  I provided a different formula that more correctly presented my position.  That is what it means to be corrected Petro.  You should be more careful when you tell untruths as anyone who is interested can go back through the posts and see that is what happened.

According to your formula, you say men can will themselves to be born of God.
[\quote]

Once again you show you can't even follow simple logic.  The formula shows that we cannot will our selves to be born again.  The entire formula is dependent on grace.  It is the catalyst that kindles within man a desire for God.  Prior to God giving Grace to us we can do nothing to approach Him.  That is why it appears first in the formula.  You read formulas left to right in case you didn't know.

Of course if they sin, they then unwill themselves to be sons of God.

No we are always sons of God but we can lose our inheritance.  I would ask you your interpretation of the parable of the Prodigal son but as you have never had the courage to offer your Churches interpretation of hardly anything for fear of its errors being too obvious I won't hold my breath for a response.

[michael_legna]

Since you ask, let's revisit Ephesians 2:8,9 comparing Scripture with Scripture, and interpret this important verse:

I agree with your assessment of Grace, for this aspect of salvation though Grace is more than this.  The term grace is also used to express the power of God within us and we can grow in Grace, meaning we can have more grace available to us as God chooses to use us more completely as a vessel of honor.  But these ideas are not relevant to this discussion.

2. WE ARE SAVED THROUGH FAITH
"...through faith...not of works lest any man should boast"
This again corresponds to Titus 3:4-7 where:
NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE (Tit. 3:5) explains the contrast between salvation through faith and salvation by good works.

This is the error all Protestants make and your own grammar betrays you.  Ephesians isn’t contrasting works and faith it is contrasting works and grace.  See the use of BY and THROUGH.  Ephesians says - We are “saved by grace”, “not of works” (OF here means BY) and I agree.   It also says we are saved “through faith”, but the verse does not say that we are not saved through works.  OF means BY not THROUGH, that is the mistake in grammar Protestants have always made using this verse to support faith alone.   Ephesians doesn’t teach that faith saves us alone, Ephesians teaches that grace saves us alone.  James supports this when he says in James 2:14  14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?  James is showing us that having pride in faith is no better than having pride in our works as if we could make God owe us salvation because our faith is so strong.  It doesn’t work that way.  We are saved by grace.

Once you catch that distinction you see that faith and works could be operating together to accept the free gift.  The last piece of the puzzle is to see that when Ephesians is talking about being saved THROUGH faith it is certainly talking about a living faith not a dead one, as discussed in James.  James 2:19-20  19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?  Then you see that faith and works are inseparable.  

Even Titus shows this if you go far enough (just a couple more verses)  Titus 3:8 8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Saving faith is (1) believing God (2) believing what God has said about His Son (3) believing that Jesus of Nazareth is indeed the Son of God (4) belieiving that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried and rose again the third day according to the Scriptures for our justification (5) belieivng that when God says we are all sinners on our way to hell, it is absolutely true (6) believing that all our "righteousnesses" [good works] are as filthy rags in God's sight (7) believing that the Lamb of God did indeed take away all of my sins through the offering of Himself and the shedding of His blood ( believing that God will give us the gift of eternal life -- (the gift of his Son, the gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift of Himself) if we will only repent [turn from our sins and idols and turn to the living God] and simply "call upon His name" -- "Lord Jesus, be merciful to me a sinner and save my soul from hell. I receive you as my Lord and Saviour right now.  Thank you Lord for saving my soul, thank you Lord for making me whole, thank you Lord for giving to me thy great salvation -- so rich and free!".

First we need to be clear on the term.  Saving faith is just that form of faith which is of the proper type to accept the free gift.  Faith does not save, grace saves.  Secondly, what you laided out above is an incomplete picture of what is necessary for a true "saving faith" or true set of beliefs.
 
It is also, believing everything Christ taught us in the Gospel, the whole Gospel not just the easy parts. (2 Cor 4:3)

It is also accepting/believing in Christ in all His roles including His role as shepherd and so following Him. (Jn 10:27)

It is also obeying the Gospel.  (2 Th 1:8 and 1 Pt 4:17)

Without these and other items I could delineate you are not saved, because you have not accepted the gift properly.

Also you need to recognize that your point 6 is referring to our works in an attempt to merit salvation through adherence to the letter of the law.  Christ showed us that, that was impossible, but He also showed us that fulfilling the spirit of the law was not impossible.  By cooperating with the free grace from God we can love God and one another and do works of God that are pleasing to Him and fulfill the spirit of the law.

3. WE ARE SAVED BY GOD SUPERNATURALLY

4. SALVATION IS TOTALLY GOD'S GIFT

I agree that Grace is given to us supernaturally, that it must occur first and outside of any agency of man for us to be saved.  I also believe that salvation is totally God’s gift.  But we must accept it, we have a free will choice in this and God does not force Himself on us.  Nothing in Titus 3:4-7 or Ephesians 2:8-9 teach anything different.

Now please confirm that this is exactly what Scripture teaches throughout, and therefore you will believe it regardless of what you have been indoctrinated with.

I do confirm that scriptures teach most of what you interpret them to be saying but not all of your interpretation was correct as I showed above.  But the scriptures teach a lot more than that too.  Salvation is not a simple one time decision, it is a process as the rest of scripture shows.  Otherwise the Gospel could have been written on a 3 by 5 card.

[Tog_Neve]

I am sorry to say that JudgeNot had it correct entirely.

Salvation is a gift freely given by God.  Once accepted it cannot be given back.  

Salvation:
Source:
Eph 2:5 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)"
Eph 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"

So we see that salvation is a free gift given by the grace of God.

Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"

Again reitterance that salvation is not only a free gift but it is eternal life.

Eph 1:13 "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise"

Here Paul states that once we have believed in the gosple of salvation we are sealed in God...sealed meaning to not be opened...thus we are not leaving.

It has also been quoted what Jesus had to say about being in the hands of God...and that no man (and we are mere men) can pluck us from Gods hands.

I am reminded of the parable of the house built on sand in which Jesus is warning of false prophets who come judgement day would say  "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" (Matt 7:22)  And Jesus replies (Matt 7:23) "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"

Again obviously a statement that no matter how good the works are if there is not belief and faith in Jesus they do not get salvation.

It is teached throughout the Bible that we are saved through the grace of God.  That Salvation is a gift freely given upon the asking.  And it is also taught that we cannot lose our salvation.  What is also taught is that our rewards in heaven will be based upon our works.
Matt 16:27 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

We are taught that as children of God our works and deeds should be for His glory and not our own.  This is as Jesus had done and is told in John 10:25 "I told you, and ye believed not the works that I do in my Fathers name, they bear witness of me"
And the parables of how we, as followers of Christ, are to be a beacon of light on the hill for all to see.  The works we do should glorify God and our actions should show that we have faith in God.  And with faith good works shall follow.  However there is much more evidence in the Bible to suggest that once saved, always saved and that our salvation is sealed with God.  That does not mean that we cannot or will no longer sin, for we are men and Satan tempts us continually.  But as Jesus said himself we shall be rewarded in heaven based upon our works on earth.

[michael_legna]

Salvation is a gift freely given by God.  

No one is arguing that.

Once accepted it cannot be given back.  

This is that part that cannot be defended without interpreting verses so they end up contrary to other scriptures.

Salvation:
Source:
Eph 2:5 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)"
Eph 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"

So we see that salvation is a free gift given by the grace of God.

Yes, but that is not all it says.  We have been all over this verse, read some of the other posts for the full analysis, but the main thrust is that this verse says salvation is a free gift, offered by God's grace not due to any works we have completed in an effort to fulfill the law and thus merit salvation.  It goes on in the middle clause to say that this free gift is accepted through faith, but of course to be consistent with James this must be refering to a living faith not a dead one such as the demons have and that living faith must have works inherently linked to it.  Works of love fulfilling the law, not works of the letter of the law which onlyu lead to death but works of the spirit of the law that lead to life.

Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"

Again reitterance that salvation is not only a free gift but it is eternal life.

But notice even here the gift is in Christ, meaning we must beleive in Him to accept the gift.  So it is not without an act on our part, that act being a true faith in Jesus.  But what does that mean?  If you truly believe in Jesus Christ you must do more than accept him as sacrificial lamb.  You must accept Him as shepherd and follow Him.  You must accept all His teachings.  You must obey the Gospel.  See it is impossible to believe in Jesus Christ without works.  Again these are works of the spirit of the law not the letter, works of love as He commanded us.  Finally you must look to when that salvation is attained by man.  It is not at the moment of initial acceptance of the idea of Christ as savior it is once we have endured.  neither you or I are saved now, we are saved ionce we have endured.  Then and only then are we given eternal life and yes then it is eternal.

Eph 1:13 "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise"

Here Paul states that once we have believed in the gosple of salvation we are sealed in God...sealed meaning to not be opened...thus we are not leaving.

That is your definition of sealed but I will provide a list of scriptures that this definition of sealed is going to be in direct contradiction to.  Feel free to provide me with alternative interpretations if you can to fit them in your once saved always saved doctrine.  Based on how long this reply is getting look for this list of scriptures in my next 3 posts.

It has also been quoted what Jesus had to say about being in the hands of God...and that no man (and we are mere men) can pluck us from Gods hands.

We are not plucking ourselves from His hand we are jumping clear.  God is not going to force us to love Him.  If we want to leave we will be able to.  If we cannot accept God prior to the offering of Grace, then satan cannot deceive us at that time since we are already deceived.  If once we accept Grace and are saved right then and there and can never lose that salvation then satan cannot deceive us then either.  Yet satan is called the great deceiver, I wonder why that is under your interpretation?

I am reminded of the parable of the house built on sand in which Jesus is warning of false prophets who come judgement day would say  "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" (Matt 7:22)  And Jesus replies (Matt 7:23) "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"

You are of course telling only half the story because the other half taken together with this disproves your point and proves mine.  He is speaking to those who tried to merit salvation by doing works of the letter of the law.  No matter hwo great those works are they do not fulfill the law.  But those who did works of love, kindness and mercy were acknowledged and acheived salvation.  Notice to when it (salvation) was given to them.  in that day refers to the judgement day, that is when we are saved - not at some altar call or one time decision point.  it is at the end after we have endured.

Again obviously a statement that no matter how good the works are if there is not belief and faith in Jesus they do not get salvation.

Actually it is also a statement that no matter how great thier faith was with out works of mercy and love they do not get salvation.  Notice that those who were condemned did things requiring great faith, casting out demons and prophesying.  no without works to keep faith alive it becomes a dead thing unacceptable to God as mode of our acceptance of the free gift.  

It is teached throughout the Bible that we are saved through the grace of God.  That Salvation is a gift freely given upon the asking.  And it is also taught that we cannot lose our salvation.  

I agree with the first part but the last part is only your interpretation.  I will show is my next post where it is taught all over the Bible that we can lose our salvation and none of the verses you have choosen so far prove that we cannot.

And with faith good works shall follow.  

Yes, good works will follow but they must also precede faith.  Repentance must occur before we can have faith and repentance is a turning around of ones life that is kindled by the free gift of grace.  That turning around accomplished by cooperating with God's grace is a work of man.

However there is much more evidence in the Bible to suggest that once saved, always saved and that our salvation is sealed with God.  

Show me these verses.  I am going to show you ones that prove the contrary.

[michael_legna]

The idea that you can not lose your salvation doesn’t seem to jive with the following scriptures.

Heb 6:3-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

In this first case we see where someone who was once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift (saved) falls away  - and crucifies the Son of God afresh (loses their salvation)  may not be saved again.

and

James 5:19-20

19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

In this second verse we see one brother (someone saved) saving another brother (who is also saved) from a minor error and saves his souls from death (the loss of salvation)

Even Peter was subject to being led astray away from the truth to his demise as seen in:

Luke 22:31-32   31And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

This was after Peter’s famous confession of the identity of Jesus as the Christ so one must assume he was saved at this point, and yet her Christ is concerned enough to pray for him that his faith would not fail.  

In fact Christ makes a point of saying that not one of those given to Him were lost for example in:

John 17:11-15  11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Well if there was no chance of losing salvation this would be much of an accomplishment now would it?  He goes on to ask that they be not be taken out of the world but be kept from evil.

and what about the case of:

Matt 12:31 "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men"

It also seems clear that you could lose your salvation through blasphemy of the Holy Spirit; as it is an unforgivable sin.  If you are not already saved before you blaspheme, then not being able to be forgiven for it, places a limit on the redemptive power of Christ’s sacrifice, something most Christians are unwilling to do.  So this must apply to someone already saved and then blaspheming thereby losing their salvation.

But even in cases less radical than that, I believe you can lose you salvation through sinning unrepentantly such as in:

2 Peter 2:20-21 20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

In fact people find themselves in a worse state to have been saved and fallen again, then to not have been saved yet at all as in:

Mt 12:43-45 says "When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation."

END OF PART 1

[michael_legna]

PART 2

and consider:

Romans 11
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Here we see the warning to the Church that has been grafted in (given the gift of salvation as heirs with His chosen people) that we can be cut off as well (just as the natural branches were not spared) if we do not continue in His goodness.


More over there are so many references to Christians being exhorted to keep the faith that directly relate to salvation as I will outline below:

first see:

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;  2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Here we see we are saved IF we keep in memory the gospel.

consider also:

1 John 2:24 "Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father."

This makes it clear that if you hold the Word truely in your heart you are saved. But it must remain there! - for it not to remain there means there is the possibility of losing it and your salvation along with it.

and similarly we see the need to hold fast to our faith in:

2 Peter 3:17,18 17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

and

Heb. 2:1-3 1Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.  2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

This verse clearly states that our salvation must not be neglected, something that would not be a requirement if we could not lose our salvation.

and

Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled  22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:  23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard,...

Here we see an exhortation to remain in the faith and not move away from the gospel.

and

Hebrews 3
1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling,...
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.  13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.  14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Here the holy brethern are warned against departing from the living God and promised that we will be partakers of Christ IF we hold stedfast – clearly meaning that it is possible to not hold steadfastly and thus lose our salvation.

and

Heb. 10:23-31 23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) 24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.  

There should be no need to worry about holding fast and exhorting each other if we are certain of our salvation because of “Once Saved Always Saved” and yet the early disciples were concerned.  We see in the above verse those saved under the blood covenant of Christ turning to consider it an unholy thing and thus losing their salvation.

John 15:1-7 1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.  6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Here we see Christ referring to His followers (branches in me) that do not remain in Him and bear fruit will be taken away and His followers are exhorted to once again remain in Him, an exhortation that would be unnecessary if “OSAS” was the rule.

Just as believing the gospel is required to receive salvation, continuing to believe the gospel is required for continued salvation. Faith is something that must be cherished, not abused or neglected.  Unbelief is what separates the ungodly from fellowship with the Creator, and unbelief can separate a once-believing Christian from his Lord.

The Scriptures teach that the believer has security in Christ, and that nothing can separate us from Him. God is entirely faithful to keep His end of the covenant. However, the Word of God also makes it perfectly clear that the believer still has a free choice to continue in Christ, or to abandon Him and void his covenant with God.

END OF PART 2

[michael_legna]

PART 3

Looking at the message to four of the Churches in the book of Revelation one can see that they risked losing their salvation because their works were not found to be in continuance of their faith.

Rev 2:5 Ephesus
5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

The church is threatened with having its light put out because the works of its members have slipped from where they were at the time of their salvation.  They must repent and do the first works to maintain their salvation.

Rev 2:16 Pergamum
16Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Those in this church must repent of their works or Christ will convict them with the Gospel.  This type of conviction is certain loss of salvation if they were saved to begin with which it is clear the members of these churches were.

Rev 3:5 Sardis
5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Here we see those discussed have not lost their salvation as they have overcome, but it is clear that they are being saved from the threat of salvation loss by the mention of being blotted out of the book of life.  You cannot be blotted out of something you were not written into and Christ would not have promised something so meaningless as to not blot them out if it wasn’t even possible to do so.

Rev3:15 Laodicians
15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Here the member of this Church are being spewed out of the body of Christ.  They must have been part of the body as a true church is or they could not be spewed out and yet being spewed out is obvious loss of salvation.

END

[Kris777]

Wouldn't that be like then saying that by works you are saved? Because you aren't saved by works.

No it is not like saying you are saved by works.

Salvation is a free gift.  There is no amount of works or faith that can save us.  If the gift is not offered freely by God through His grace we cannot be saved.  So we are saved by6 grace.

We must accept the free gift though, God does not force Himself on us.  The scriptures tell us that we accept the gift through a living faith, not a dead on like the demons have.  What is the difference between a living faith and a dead one?  One is accompanied by works and the other is not.  Faith alone is without works, so it is dead.  Works perfect and enliven our faith and perfect it, so they are mandatory for proper acceptance of the gift.  

Every place in scripture that speaks against works, speaks against using works to attempt to fulfill the letter of the law to make God owe us salvation.  That is not possible.  But Jesus showed us that we can fulfill the spirit of the law.  Love fulfills the law, so works of love fulfill the spirit of the law and thus lead to life.  Even then we do not merit salvation, faith to move mountains and works that completely fulfill the spirit of the law stillwould not merit us salvation because they are so puny in comparison to what God deserves.  Salvation is a free gift and faith and works are just our way of accepting, cherishing and holding on to it.

You are saying that God gives a free gift if we accept it, but you are also saying that God can also take away the free gift, so we have to be good to maintain it.  That is by works.  First you accept God, then, you think, by works you maintain salvation.  Which works do not maintain salvation, but by works and obedience we glorify God.

[michael_legna]

You are saying that God gives a free gift if we accept it, but you are also saying that God can also take away the free gift, so we have to be good to maintain it.  That is by works.  

No I did not say that.  I said we are given a free gift, we accept it through a living faith, one that James shows us must be accompanied by works or it becomes nothing more than the type of faith that the demons have.  If we don't do our works of love, fulfilling the law, as Christ taught us, we throw our free gift away.  God does not take it from us, if He did then you would be right we would be meriting our salvation and that we can never do.  But that is not what I said, I clearly stated that we lose our salvation through rejecting it, by rejecting Christ's teachings through disobedience.  Let me repeat, the only way we can lose our salvation is to throw it away.

First you accept God, then, you think, by works you maintain salvation.  Which works do not maintain salvation, but by works and obedience we glorify God.

Yes works and obedience play a role in sanctification, our setting ourselves apart for God's use and glory, but santification is part of the process of salvation.  Scripture has been misinterpreted by some to seperate sanctification from justification and salvation but no scripture truly supports this idea.  If you think there is one I would be glad to see it.

[The Crusader]

You can lose your religion.

Once Saved Always Saved.

The Crusader

[Tog_Neve]

Ok let me preface this by stating that I have gone back and read the entire posting again Michael.  And I have some comments concerning some things posted a while back.  And my reply is not complete at this time either.  I felt I should go ahead and post some now and then finish it up tonight or tomorrow.  I have also broken it down a little bit as well.   So anyway here we go.  

I.
Heb 6:4-6
A while back you had referenced these verses as a means to show how one could fall away.  You stated, "Here we have those clearly saved and yet fall away."  And Allinall was getting close in their reply but missed it by just a hair.
Now one thing that comes to mind when reading the whole of Hebrews is who this is written to and the underlying tone of the whole epistle.  The author is writing to Judiac converts, those that were once of the Jewish faith but have converted to Christianity.  So the Author goes to lengths to show how Jesus was greater than the phrophets, the Law, and more.
The Author starts to set the stage for our discussion in Heb 3:12 "Take care, brethren, lest there should be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the Living God."  A warning to be wary of those that could be professing the faith but actually not a true believer.  To be wary of someone who could be amongst them, or near them, that has fallen away from the Living God and failed to see the truth of the Christ.   Remember the Jews were "with" the Living God before the Messiah came, and those that did not accept Him when He came had fallen away from God.
The author moves on to explain they are partakers of Christ and that it was the Hebrews who provoked Him, and that it was the Hebrews whom angered God for 40 years.  Then the author states "And to whom did He swear that they should not enter His rest, but thos who were disobedient?  And so we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief."  This unbelief is talking of the Hebrews in not believing that Jesus was the Messiah they were waiting for.
When we move into chapter 4 we are again talking of the Hebrews and of "the rest" mentioned above.  In verse 6 the author states, "Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience."  Before Christ the Hebrews had the "good news" preached to them.  Even news of the coming Messiah, but hen do not enter because they do not believe.  Thus at that tim they too fell away from God.
When we move into chapter 6, which you discuss, we are again talking of the Hebrews who once had the Holy Spirit.  They once tasted the Heavenly gift, but failed to believe in the Messiah that God had sent.  Remember the Jews are still waiting for the first coming of the Messiah.  They are still waiting for the fulfillment of the Law.  And what would need to be done for that to happen?  "Crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put him to open shame."  Yep Jesus came and fulfilled the Law they had been looking for and in order for them to get what they are waiting for then Jesus would have to come again and be born again and crucified again.  Is that going to happen?  I dont think so
So with true reading and study of the verse you quoted in full context you can see that it is not referring to a "saved" Christian falling from God but the Jews who had fallen from God.

II
Eph 2:8-9
There was much banter and mention of these verses throughout the first part of this thread.  And when I got to Sowers comments on it...quite honestly he read a great deal more into it than is there.
But after that  you had made the comment "Ephesians isn't contrasting works and faith it is contrasting works and grace."  This is however not true.  These verses say a couple of things actually....and one of us protestants are going to have show you  
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Now lets look into this sentence gramatically.  In essence what this sentence is stating is that we are saved by grace through faith and not as a result of works, so that none may boast.  We actually have two seperate related independant clauses here, as shown by the use of the semi-colons.  A semi-colon can be used to imply a because or other word that would allow the reader to actually be involved in the development of an idea.  So what we have is in the first part could read similar to this "For by grace (grace not of yourselves but as a gift from God) you have been saved."  We know that the second portion, in the semi-colons, is referring to grace by the structure of how it is worded.  We see that it is through grace we have been saved through faith.  So it is from someone else that we have this grace, and the second portion lets us know that the grace that has been given is not of our own but that of Gods.  
The last part of the sentence after the second semi-colon finishes up the thought of the first part before the first semi-colon. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."  
Those two verses show to us that salvation is achieved through faith alone and not of any consequences to actions taken to try and achieve salvation.  In other words Mother Theresa could help a billion people in her life and do deeds unfathomable by the rest of the masses but without faith she cannot be saved.

III
You had stated earlier:

But He is not in your heart unless you believe the right things, that implies understanding and that is only achieved through knowledge of the scriptures.  he who is ignorant of the Gospel is ignorant of Christ.

And all I can say to that the last line of that is completely false.  The Gentiles of the 1st century would have barely knows the Laws, let alone a scripture of the Gospels that had not even been written yet.  Paul is another example who did not come to know Jesus until a revelation.
One does not have to know the NT like the back of their hand to have belief in Jesus.  One does not even ever to have heard of the Bible in order to believe in Jesus.  A further understanding of the Gospel and the Bible comes after one has accepted the gift of Salvation.  I could go to up to someone in the most remote part of the world that has never heard of a Christian and tell him "Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior", and if that person truly believes that and accepts that then God will save that person.

There are a couple of others that I will be continuing a little later today or tomorrow.  But I did not want you to think I had forgotten about you .  In my next post I will discuss James, Luke (you mentioned 22:31-32), John 17, Matt , and the rest of your verses and such.  It may take a post or two but I will get there

But this should give you a little to chew on for a bit while I write up the information on the other stuff.  (yes I said write...I still use my trusty pencil/pen and paper first  )

[michael_legna]

You can lose your religion.

Once Saved Always Saved.

The Crusader

Can you provide any scripture that says that?  I can and have produced a lot of verses that preach a different understanding.

[Kris777]

Can you provide any scripture that says that?  I can and have produced a lot of verses that preach a different understanding.

Ephesians 1:13-14 " In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

Ephesians 5:30 "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

Romans 8:38-39 " For I am persaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principatlities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall (be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.") (which I looked up the side bar for this meaning in my bible and it gave me John 10:28)

John 10:28" And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them our of my hand.

John 10:29" My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

[PawnRaider]

hello folks:

I voted NO, "cannot lose salvation," but would prefer the answer: "do not care!"  

Permit me to explain BEFORE you brand me a heretic or infidel!  

While I believe the Bible says that I cannot "lose my salvation," I find I am really not very concerned about the subject.  [should I be:  ?]

Many good Christian folks that I know who are serious about "cannot lose it" seem to want to use this position as an excuse to continue in a "secret sin."  Functionally, they really are hoping they cannot lose their salvation, because they really like ________.  (fill in the blank with any sin: sex, anger, malice, greed, hypocracy, fear, et.al.)  

However, many folks who are very serious about "might slip up and lose it" are using this as a goad to control their attraction to sin.  they are forgetting that Jesus said, "if you lust after a woman in your heart, you have already..."  and "if you hate your brother, you are guilty of murder..."

I find the debate to be badly focused.  my focus ought to be on how to increase the clarity, intensity and closeness of my relationship with Christ, not on some theoretical limit to HIS power or on the result of some potential weakness in my character.  the reality is 1) My character is W*E*A*K!  2) Christ is ALL POWERFUL! and 3) He wants to spend the rest of eternity with me!  4) He has guaranteed that If I "endure to the end," He will show/give me the fullness of the salvation He has set in store for me!   That's all I need!

If everybody would use the time and energy spent on this subject working on their intimacy with Christ, their brokenness before Him and their love for Him, their lives might be enriched far beyond their dreams...  

Even if there is nothing in store after this life, Serving Him here is far better than any other optional way to live.  

remember the commandment concerning questions the engender more questions?