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| | |-+  Can a Christian Lose Their Salvation?
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Question: Can A Christian Lose Their Salvation?
Yes - 6 (18.8%)
No - 26 (81.3%)
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Total Voters: 28

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Author Topic: Can a Christian Lose Their Salvation?  (Read 23998 times)
michael_legna
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« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2003, 09:40:50 AM »

Quote
michael_legna -- My one-word responses are given below:

Yes, we are saved by grace, a free gift of God.  CORRECT

 Through our faith-- A living faith, one that is accompanied by works.  CORRECT

but it is clear that faith alone cannot save it must be perfected and made alive through works -- WRONG.

 I contend that works actually preceed faith -- WRONG

 before you can believe you must repent and repentance (which comes from a military term meaning about-face) is a turning of your life around -- WRONG

So how does this relate to losing your salvation?  It is because you must hold on to the free gift by keeping your faith alive through all the trials and temptations of life.  Else when God ask you what you did with that free gift you will have to answer  - I threw it away -- WRONG

Yes, Crusader, Michael is a Roman Catholic and so provides us with the Catholic interpretation of saving faith.

Michael:

You are partly right and partly wrong, which means the Catholic interpretation of being saved by grace is wholly wrong.

Here's what the Bible actually teaches in Eph. 2:8-9:

1. All are sinners and all need to be saved.
2. All sinners need to (1) believe (2) repent and (3) receive, none of which is a "good work" but simply an honest response to the Gospel
3. Saving faith comes by [spiritual] "hearing" and hearing by the Word of God -- when the genuine Gospel is preached in the power of the Holy Spirit, men and women believe that (1) they are sinners (2) Jesus of Nazareth is the Son of God and that Christ died for their sins (3) Christ rose again for their justification (4) if they repent of their sins and "call upon the name of the Lord" they shall be saved.
4. When a sinner receives Christ as both Lord and Saviour, God saves that sinner by His grace, and gives him or her the gift of eternal life, the gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift of Christ within, the gift of God within!
5. Good works follow as a result of the new birth, but no good works whatsoever and no penance can merit our salvation. The ultimate "good work" was done by Christ Himself and that is sufficient for God the Father.
6. Our redemption was purchased on the cross by the blood of Christ, by the offering up of His body and His soul "an offering for sin", and therefore His righteousness is given to us as a gift --"the robe of righteousness".
7. This is imputed righteousness, and therefore God can justly declare us "NOT GUILTY" and "RIGHTEOUS -- AS PERFECT AS CHRIST". It was on the basis of imputed righteousness that the repentant criminal on the cross beside Christ went to "Paradise" with Christ.
8. It is not for us to "keep our faith alive" but simply believe that "Christ in us is the hope of glory", and that it is "God that worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure".
9. We cannot "lose" our salvation because "GOD IS OUR SALVATION" (that is what the name "Jesus" means) and we become His children for all eternity. That's what the "gift of eternal life" means (Jn. 3:16).

I agree with all of the scriptures you quote, but I am sure I don't agree with your man's intepretation of them.  

Please provide your interpretation so we can see your doctrine in the light of day and we will see which interpretation fits with these and all scriptures better.

I had the courage to provide my doctrine for open examination, I only ask the same courage of you.
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Mr. 5020
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« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2003, 11:01:06 AM »

So then my salvation is dependent upon me to some degree?

Yes, man plays a role in his own salvation.  We are not under deterministic predestination, we have a free will we can choose not to be saved.  We can reject the free gift.  The Israelites missed it when Christ came and they failed to see their Messiah.

I think that's what they all wanted you to say.[/size]
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« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2003, 11:30:47 PM »

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Yes, man plays a role in his own salvation.

Then we must through out, or spiritualize...

Quote
he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Titus 3:5

The role I play is one of obedience to God's calling.  I do believe that I play that role.  

Quote
We are not under deterministic predestination, we have a free will we can choose not to be saved.  

We are under predestination, or we must through out or spiritualize...

Quote
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Romans 8:29-30

But we do have the choice to obey that call.  If we chose not to obey, then we have said no to the repentance that comes from God.  When God says "Repent," we have said "No."

Quote
The Israelites missed it when Christ came and they failed to see their Messiah.

Yup!

Quote
I think that's what they all wanted you to say.

Yuuuuup!   Grin
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« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2003, 12:26:58 AM »

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michael_legna Please provide your interpretation so we can see your doctrine in the light of day and we will see which interpretation fits with these and all scriptures better.

Michael:

Since you ask, let's revisit Ephesians 2:8,9 comparing Scripture with Scripture, and interpret this important verse:

1. WE ARE SAVED BY GOD'S GRACE
"For by GRACE are ye saved..." This corresponds to Titus 3:4-7, where:
a) Grace is defined as "THE KINDNESS AND LOVE OF GOD OUR SAVIOUR TOWARD MAN" (Tit. 3:4).
b) Grace is also defined as "HIS MERCY" --- "ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED US" (Tit. 3:5)
c) Grace is also given as the basis of our justification (Tit.3:7) "THAT BEING JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE WE SHOULD BE MADE HEIRS"

2. WE ARE SAVED THROUGH FAITH
"...through faith...not of works lest any man should boast"
This again corresponds to Titus 3:4-7 where:
NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE (Tit. 3:5) explains the contrast between salvation through faith and salvation by good works. Saving faith is (1) believing God (2) believing what God has said about His Son (3) believing that Jesus of Nazareth is indeed the Son of God (4) belieiving that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried and rose again the third day according to the Scriptures for our justification (5) belieivng that when God says we are all sinners on our way to hell, it is absolutely true (6) believing that all our "righteousnesses" [good works] are as filthy rags in God's sight (7) believing that the Lamb of God did indeed take away all of my sins through the offering of Himself and the shedding of His blood (Cool believing that God will give us the gift of eternal life -- (the gift of his Son, the gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift of Himself) if we will only repent [turn from our sins and idols and turn to the living God] and simply "call upon His name" -- "Lord Jesus, be merciful to me a sinner and save my soul from hell. I receive you as my Lord and Saviour right now.  Thank you Lord for saving my soul, thank you Lord for making me whole, thank you Lord for giving to me thy great salvation -- so rich and free!".

3. WE ARE SAVED BY GOD SUPERNATURALLY
..."and that not of yourselves..."
Again, we learn from Titus 3:4-7 is that salvation is a supernatural work of God the Holy Spirit in bringing about the new birth [regeneration]: "BY THE WASHING OF REGENERATION AND THE RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST" (Tit. 3:5). Water cannot wash our souls, only cleansing by the blood of Christ and the "washing" or experience of the new birth, without which we cannot see or enter into the kingdom of God (Jn. 3:1-12).

4. SALVATION IS TOTALLY GOD'S GIFT
"...it is the gift of God..."
Again this corresponds to Titus 3:4-7, where we read:
"WHICH HE SHED ON US ABUNDANTLY THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR SAVIOUR...[THAT] WE SHOULD BE MADE HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE HOPE [PROMISE] OF ETERNAL LIFE" (Tit. 3:6,7).  We know that eternal life is both a hope and a promise since we are still in our mortal bodies awaiting the resurrection or the rapture of the saints [believers]. God could give us sinners the gift of eternal life because Christ cancelled the sin-debt and abolished the enmity between God and mankind through Calvary. That is why He has "sealed" each one of His saints with the indwelling Holy Spirit of promise(Eph.1:13).

Now please confirm that this is exactly what Scripture teaches throughout, and therefore you will believe it regardless of what you have been indoctrinated with.
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« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2003, 02:54:55 AM »

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Matthew 12
30"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.


I believe that we will not be snatched from the Father's hand, but if we speak blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the Bible says that we will not be forgiven, which ultimately means no salvation.
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« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2003, 03:59:53 AM »

michael, of course!

free will + works = salvation - sin = loss of salvation + repent = salvation - sin = loss of salvation + repent = saved again ,

and round and round we go....where we stop nobody knows.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Eternal life implys precisely that.

Jesus said;


Petro


I agree.

The Crusader
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Kris777
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« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2003, 04:01:40 AM »

Wouldn't that be like then saying that by works you are saved? Because you aren't saved by works.
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Jesus is our first, last and only hope.  Without Him we would be nothing.
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« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2003, 04:06:35 AM »

Wouldn't that be like then saying that by works you are saved? Because you aren't saved by works.

Thats what michael, believes he is one of those Roman Catholics, he believes free will + works = salvation - sin = loss of salvation + repent = salvation - sin = loss of salvation + repent = saved again ,

Petro and myself dont.

The Crusader
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michael_legna
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« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2003, 09:38:04 AM »

Wouldn't that be like then saying that by works you are saved? Because you aren't saved by works.

Thats what michael, believes he is one of those Roman Catholics, he believes free will + works = salvation - sin = loss of salvation + repent = salvation - sin = loss of salvation + repent = saved again ,

Petro and myself dont.

The Crusader


If you have read the posts between Petro and I you know this not to be true and that makes you out to be a liar!

I corrected Petro when he presented his little formula and have made it clear through my posts that I do not hold to earning your salvation through works and the Catholic Church does not teach that.

I am willing to assume you just haven't kept up with the posts between Petro and I and so this is an innocent mistake.  But you need to be careful repeating things from one person and then crediting them to another.  That formula came from Petro and was corrected by me.  The correct formula if you want to try to put the process of salvation into one is
grace + freewill = faith + works = salvation - sin = loss of salvation + repentance = salvation etc. as long as you remain man and therefore sin and as long as you endure and therefore continue to repent.  

Show me a scripture that when properly interpreted disagrees with that doctrine.
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« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2003, 06:23:22 PM »

Vote, and then explain.[/size]


Hi there!

Once you are redeemed, you might break the fellowship, but you can't break the relationship.




John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:  
John 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.  


When you are born "of God" and as "sons of God"; if, for whatever reason you break your fellowship with God, it doesn't change the fact that God is still your spiritual parent, as you remain eternally "of God".


~serapha~
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«: *´`³³´`*:»§«:*´`³³´`*:»§«:*´`³³´`*:»§«:*´`³³´`*:»
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« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2003, 09:26:49 PM »

michael,

You never corrected anything.

According to your formula, you say men can will themselves to be born of God.

Of course if they sin, they then unwill themselves to be sons of God.

I just wonder what seed is it the produces this, the bible makes it clear the seed which is the word of God, is what produces the will of God concerning the new birth of His elect.


Sorry charlie......no cigar for you...


Blessings anyhow,

Petro
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JudgeNot
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« Reply #41 on: January 01, 2004, 02:45:09 AM »

Forgive me - I’m a newbie – but I must interject.
You guys argue WAY too much, and you make this WAY too hard.  Jesus said His yoke is easy!  If you really (really, really REALLY) believe that Jesus is who He says he is – that he was born of a virgin, that He is God incarnate, and if you believe in Him and have invited Him into your heart, - then you are saved!  Salvation is a GIFT.  If God gives us something – Is he going to take it back?  
Jesus died for ALL sins – including ours – us – who are by man’s calendar WAY in the future of His incarnate being and His crucifixion.  He died for sins that were in the future as well as in the past.  ALL is ALL.  He died for ALL of our sins.
Boys and girls (I can say that - I'm old) – I don’t care if you are Baptist, Methodist, Catholic or “decline to state” – if Jesus is REALLY in your heart, then you ARE saved.  HE says so!  That is His promise!  How wonderful is that???!  Do I have to list scores of Bible verses?  NO!  If you believe, you know it is true!
Period.  The end.  Amen.  Praise be to the Lord!

Praise you Jesus – for You said whoever believes you are Lord and publicly acknowledges You, they will not die but receive everlasting life…

paquita, You say
“I believe that we will not be snatched from the Father's hand, but if we speak blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the Bible says that we will not be forgiven, which ultimately means no salvation.”

Paquita – please study more closely who Jesus was speaking to.  In context, that is a burden impossible for sinful man (you and me and Billy Graham and the pope) to endure!  That was spoken by Jesus in an entirely different context!  Jesus was speaking to and about the Pharisees who spoke against Him while He was in their midst and REFUSED to believe.  They saw the Lord, they saw his miracles, they heard Him teach and they still had a cold heart – THAT was the blasphemy about which Jesus spoke – not the person who, in a drunken or angry stupor curses the spirit of the Lord!  

Hey - Even Thomas didn’t believe until he felt the holes in the Lord’s hands!

Bottom line?  The Lord will judge who is and isn’t saved – we can debate it until He comes for us – it is still His call.

I love all of you – each and every one.  Happy New Year!  
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michael_legna
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« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2004, 07:54:43 AM »

Quote
Yes, man plays a role in his own salvation.

Then we must through out, or spiritualize...

Quote
he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Titus 3:5

The role I play is one of obedience to God's calling.  I do believe that I play that role.  

Quote
We are not under deterministic predestination, we have a free will we can choose not to be saved.  

We are under predestination, or we must through out or spiritualize...

Quote
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Romans 8:29-30

But we do have the choice to obey that call.  If we chose not to obey, then we have said no to the repentance that comes from God.  When God says "Repent," we have said "No."

Quote
The Israelites missed it when Christ came and they failed to see their Messiah.

Yup!

Quote
I think that's what they all wanted you to say.

Yuuuuup!   Grin

I agree we are predestine, I just disagree with some people's understanding of predestination.  It is not a deterministic predestination which requires a loss of free will as some claim or a predestination that is in some way limiting on the mercy of God, as He wants all to come to the knowledge and be saved.  Predestination says more about God and His infinite knowledge than it says about us and our inability to respond to grace.
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michael_legna
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« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2004, 08:04:11 AM »

Wouldn't that be like then saying that by works you are saved? Because you aren't saved by works.

No it is not like saying you are saved by works.

Salvation is a free gift.  There is no amount of works or faith that can save us.  If the gift is not offered freely by God through His grace we cannot be saved.  So we are saved by6 grace.

We must accept the free gift though, God does not force Himself on us.  The scriptures tell us that we accept the gift through a living faith, not a dead on like the demons have.  What is the difference between a living faith and a dead one?  One is accompanied by works and the other is not.  Faith alone is without works, so it is dead.  Works perfect and enliven our faith and perfect it, so they are mandatory for proper acceptance of the gift.  

Every place in scripture that speaks against works, speaks against using works to attempt to fulfill the letter of the law to make God owe us salvation.  That is not possible.  But Jesus showed us that we can fulfill the spirit of the law.  Love fulfills the law, so works of love fulfill the spirit of the law and thus lead to life.  Even then we do not merit salvation, faith to move mountains and works that completely fulfill the spirit of the law stillwould not merit us salvation because they are so puny in comparison to what God deserves.  Salvation is a free gift and faith and works are just our way of accepting, cherishing and holding on to it.
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Matt 5:11  Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:
michael_legna
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« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2004, 08:06:54 AM »

Vote, and then explain.[/size]


Hi there!

Once you are redeemed, you might break the fellowship, but you can't break the relationship.




John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:  
John 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.  


When you are born "of God" and as "sons of God"; if, for whatever reason you break your fellowship with God, it doesn't change the fact that God is still your spiritual parent, as you remain eternally "of God".


~serapha~


The prodigal son was still the son of the Father but he had squndered His inheritance.  If He had not repented and turned his life around returning to the Father he would have been lost to the family.  

Yes if we break the fellowship with God we are still His son's but we will be missed.
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Matt 5:11  Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:
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