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| | |-+  Can a Christian Lose Their Salvation?
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Question: Can A Christian Lose Their Salvation?
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No - 26 (81.3%)
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Author Topic: Can a Christian Lose Their Salvation?  (Read 23997 times)
michael_legna
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« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2003, 11:49:14 AM »

Quote
First of all, I agree that the passage you posted deals directly with the believer.  I do not however, believe that it is in reference to salvific repentance or salvation.  Explain to me how the writer of Hebrews would spend the entire book expressing the complete and sufficient sacrifice of Christ "once for all" and throw in the middle that regardless of how sufficient and complete that sacrifice is, one can still lose the salvation such a sacrifice provided?  Let's look at this contextually for a minute:

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


Preceded by this passage is:

6   But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7   Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8   Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9   When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10   Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11   So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12   Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13   But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14   For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15   While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16   For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17   But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18   And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19   So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 3:6-19

Many equate this to a salvific sense.  However, to do so, you must throw dispensational theology out the door, and apply New Testament theology to Old Testament revelation.  

Why do you believe that?  Not that I am opposed to throwing out dispensational theology if it doesn’t fit with scripture.

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Not to mention, you must spiritualize the rest spoken of here.  Contextually, that rest was the rest of victoriously possessing the land God had given the Hebrew people.  

But that rest was not never-ending and they could certainly lose that rest as they eventually did, just as we can lose ours.

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Now that I've ranted for awhile, perhaps I can tie it in with my point.  The author goes on after setting the illustrative groundwork in chapter 3 of a defeated people, not lost, defeated, by stating:

But a people who are defeated are lost as long as they remain defeated.  Israel was not lost because although they were defeated many times they always came back to the Lord.  I am not saying you cannot get your salvation back (except in a specific, extreme case which I have not brought up yet).  God doesn’t give up on us even after we give up on Him, but we must repent and come back like the prodigal son or we will be lost.

END OF PART1 (please note that I may not have split my response in the same place your posts were split - hope this doesn't confuse too much)
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michael_legna
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« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2003, 12:00:06 PM »

PART 2
Quote
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2   For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3   For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4   For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5   And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6   Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7   Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8   For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9   There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10   For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11   Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:1-11

There is a lot here but here goes.  These verses start out by warning that although the gift/promise is there for the taking we can come short of getting that rest. They go on to show the necessity of faith claiming that a rest awaits those who have faith.  But this of course means not a dead faith but a true living faith, one that must be accompanied by works.  So the rest spoken of here is a rest from trying to fulfill the letter of the law as an attempt to merit salvation.  It then ends with the encouragement to labor/work to enter into that rest.  All along we see the importance of works in unison with faith to accept the promised gift of salvation and that means the gift is only finally assured after we have endured.

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He reiterates his point, by using the Old Testament illustration ("these things were written for our ensample...") to apply the New Testament understanding.  If you are struggling with disbelief - SIN, because disbelief is at the heart of every sin - then do not be hardened when?  When God gives repentance (Hebrews 6:4-6).

Yes and man still sins even after accepting the free gift.  So if disbelief is at the heart of all sin then man still struggles with disbelief, and a lack of a perfect faith even after initial acceptance of the free gift.  If he does good works he trys to perfect that faith, if he does not, he risks losing that faith or letting it die and thus loses his salvation.

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Remember, the author is writing to Hebrews, using a direct passage in the Old Testament to illustrate a specific circumstance, by which he might bring them to understand the necessity of living victoriously.  He goes on in Hebrews 4...

11  Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13  Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
14  Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15  For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16  Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Hebrews 4:11-16

Here too we see the verses end with a reminder that we have a source of grace to help us through our times of trial and temptation, which would be completely unnecessary if we could not lose our salvation.

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It amazes me how often we miss the latter part of this chapter.  If this speaks of salvation, and how we, as lost sinners, can come boldly to God to find grace and obtain mercy to help us get saved...why does God say "Repentance is of the Lord"?  To say that this is in regards to salvation is to say that we can freely come to God whenever we chose, and is in direct disagreement with what God has already said.  "Repentance is of the Lord."

And why do you believe we cannot come to God whenever we choose, once the first gift of sufficient grace is offered.  I agree that initially man cannot seek God, but once the gift of grace has been offered we can.

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However, if this does not speak of salvation, but rather of living victoriously over the sins we involve ourselves in, which at their very heart lies disbelief, then how much more applicable is this passage?  Consider, "Let us labor to enter into that rest...", as the rest of victorious belief, what might we need to help us in that labor?  "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."  Moreover, "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.  For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.  Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."  We have a High Priest in Jesus Who not only knows what the struggle is like, but also endured the same struggle..."yet without sin."  So come!  Come boldly to find the grace and get the mercy needed to live such a life as the One Who died in our place.


But if we interpret these passages this way we must also interpret the earlier verse to be saying it is possible to be once enlightened, and to have tasted of the heavenly gift, and to be made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and to have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, and still not have been saved!  Or at the very least to be a true believer and that true belief (as I think you claim below) is not enough for salvation.  I cannot agree with either position, they just don't make sense.  Am I misunderstanding you?

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So then we come to the passage in Hebrews 6.  If a believer refuses to repent - remember "harden not your hearts as in the day of provocation" - then he basically says that Jesus isn't good enough for him!  He wants his way, not God's.  

Now, is this even possible?  Step out of the boundaries of scripture to the realm of observation for a minute.  How many of us can name people we swore were saved, who have left church, home and God to pursue their own desires?  We automatically call them lost!  But what if they aren't?  I have a personal understanding of this as I was just such a person.  I wasn't lost.  I didn't get saved again.  I know, as I knew Whom I have believed and am, as was, persuaded that He is able to keep that which I've committed unto Him against that day!  I am saved.  By Him, not by me, my obedience to His commands, or any other thing.  I am saved by the blood of the High Priest Who gave it for my atonement, once, for all.  For me!  I don't normally use such illustrations, but I don't believe this illustration to be in disagreement with God's word.  I'll be happy to explain further if need be.

If such a believer refuses to follow Jesus, then it is impossible to call him to repentance again.  How so?  If Jesus isn't good enough for him now, the only way He would be is for him to come to that same moment when Jesus was good enough for him.  Jesus died once for all.  He'll not be crucified again for such a believer.  He's lost his chance for repentance - not his salvation.  What might not be good enough for him, IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR GOD as the rest of the book of Hebrews teaches.  Praise God!

I appreciate your observation but I do not accept personal experience for a basis to build a doctrine on.  We are too easily fooled by our environment.  This is a philosophical position I am taking and not a comment on your own story.

Be that as it may I need to ask the following question.  As I alluded to above, how does this approach NOT require more than true belief to accept the gift of salvation and if more is needed what is it?  If it is works (not to merit salvation but to keep faith alive) then we are back to risking losing our salvation when our works fail and thus faith dies.
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Petro
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« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2003, 12:02:06 PM »

michael, of course!

free will + works = salvation - sin = loss of salvation + repent = salvation - sin = loss of salvation + repent = saved again ,

and round and round we go....where we stop nobody knows.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Eternal life implys precisely that.

Jesus said;

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

michael are you one of HIS sheep??

Petro
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michael_legna
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« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2003, 12:06:57 PM »


What is this strange doctrine? Are you a Roman Catholic?
I hope not.

The Crusader

Yes, I am a Roman Catholic and it is far from a strange doctrine.  It is the doctrine taught throughout all of Christendom for the first 1500 years of Christianity.  That is why you find the very same belief among the Christians evangelized in India by the Apostle who went there as you find among the Greek Orthodox as you find in the Catholic Church.  But the true test of any doctrine is how well it agrees with scripture and there is not one verse that cannot be reconciled to this doctrine once you interpret it correctly in light of all other scriptures.  You claim it is strange show me, because I claim your simple interpretation of Eph 2:8-9 is wrong in light of the rest of scripture.
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michael_legna
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« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2003, 10:09:57 AM »

Quote
free will + works = salvation - sin = loss of salvation + repent = salvation - sin = loss of salvation + repent = saved again ,

and round and round we go....where we stop nobody knows.

Your crude formulas show you to be as innumerate, as your poor understanding of grammar, has shown you to be illiterate.  The proper formulation should be grace + freewill = faith + works = salvation etc.

I will admit that even though you got the formula wrong (after all this time discussing it) you still see the underlying issue.  Yes salvation is a process, one that we must endure to maintain to the end and I have shown you plenty of scripture to make this clear.  Scripture you have had no answer for except to fall back to dragging up your standard verses.  With these verses you have attempted to show my interpretation cannot be the right one as it disagrees with your interpretation of the view verses which appear to deny freewill.  Your failing comes from the fact that you never offer an alternative interpretation for mine.  In affect you revert to verse slinging, because you cannot reconcile the verses I present with the ones you rely upon.  I hope someday you can see that interpretations that cannot be made to fit all scripture are incomplete.  No incomplete theology can possibly be correct.

Quote
Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Yes, faith does need to hear the word of God to come into existence.  But, please for a moment, think like an adult,  ask yourself why is this required.  If God was simply forcing Himself on us we would not have to hear the word of God to have faith.  We must hear the word of God because we judge what truth is for ourselves.  Not always rightly judging, but we judge none the less.  This judgment is our freewill in action.  Without freewill and with faith as the gift as you propose, there is no need to hear the word of God.    Again a verse of your own choosing has betrayed you.  But if your past behavior is any indicator, I know you will simply ignore it and fail to offer an alternative interpretation because it can’t be made to fit in with the 20 or so verses you build your doctrine around.

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Eternal life implys precisely that.

Yes once we have endured and achieved salvation we will have life eternally.  But we don’t achieve salvation with one simple decision at an altar call and it isn’t forced on us, we gain salvation through a proper acceptance of the gift through a living faith.

Quote
Jesus said;

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

michael are you one of HIS sheep??

I am one of His sheep.  Does that mean that I never stray?  No.

Petro, are you one of His sheep – do you follow Him?  Do you obey the Gospel? Have you ever strayed?  Do you yet sin?  If you do not have freewill doesn’t that sin make God the author of that sin?  
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« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2003, 12:18:50 PM »

michael,


Jesus said;

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

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michael are you one of HIS sheep??

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michael's reply
I am one of His sheep.

Why do you not believe HIS WORD, then??

Quote
Does that mean that I never stray?  No.

Stray from what?

If you do not believe Jesus, you do not belong to Him
according to the Word.

Only those who possess His Spirit belong to Him;

Rom 8
9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Do you possess HIS Spirit??,

Does His Spirit DWELL in you??
 

You are hard pressed to prove this, since you deny His own WORDS spoken in obedience to the Father, He is that prophet spoken of at Deut 18:17-19.  God will judge you for what you did with His Words spoken by Jesus that prophet.

If you do have His Spirit;

WHY DON"T YOU BELIEVE HIM??  As you say proof is in the pudding of what one believes in relation to doctrine taught by scripture??


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Petro, are you one of His sheep – do you follow Him?


YES, and YES.

Quote
Do you obey the Gospel?

You mean, have I obeyed the Gospel,

(see Isa 45:21-22, God Commands all ,to look upon Him, and be saved because He is the only God that saves.)

I declare to you that I am SAVED, and I possess His Spirit.

Quote
Have you ever strayed?  

Define your word strayed??

Quote
Do you yet sin?

I am resigned to being a sinner the rest of my days because I know that I am made from the dust of this sin cursed earth, and I do transgress Gods law...

Quote
 If you do not have freewill doesn’t that sin make God the author of that sin?

You would have me believe this, is the truth, but it isn't,  aside from the verse I have shared with you, above many times; the word assures me that inspite of many ( a multitude of sins) offenses  I will be Justified in the because He keeps me in His hand, not having my own righteousness but that which is imputed, so as you can see I do not trust in what I do, but what He has done and will continue to do for me.


For it He who Works in me, to Will and to do of His good pleasure...

Can you say this about your Savior??

Blessings,
Petro

« Last Edit: December 26, 2003, 12:25:44 PM by Petro » Logged

michael_legna
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« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2003, 01:42:28 PM »

Quote
Why do you not believe HIS WORD, then??

I do believe His word.  I don't believe your interpretation of His word.
Quote
Quote
Does that mean that I never stray?  No.

Stray from what?

Stray from His teachings, stop following Him, in other words sin.  You admit below that you do still sin and so you do stray from following Him.  You do stop obeying (present tense - not past tense like you want people to believe) the Gospel.  If you stray without coming back to following Him, if you sin unrepentantly, if you stop obeying the Gospel - you lose your salvation.


Quote
Quote
 If you do not have freewill doesn’t that sin make God the author of that sin?

You would have me believe this, is the truth, but it isn't,  aside from the verse I have shared with you, above many times; the word assures me that inspite of many ( a multitude of sins) offenses  I will be Justified in the because He keeps me in His hand, not having my own righteousness but that which is imputed, so as you can see I do not trust in what I do, but what He has done and will continue to do for me.

I would not have you believe it.  I would have you and everyone else see the illogical conclusion that MUST come from your doctrine of no free will.  Since you ignore the issue and offer no explanation or alternative interpretation I can only assume you don't have one.  Your discussion doesn't even address the issue at hand.  It is not about whether your past, present and future sins are forgiven it is who is the source of the sins you commit.  If you have no free will you must be telling me that God is and that I will not accept.  Time to take responsibility for your own actions.

In one of your previous posts to me you claimed man cannot do as God commands.  If that is so Calvinism seems to have solved the old paradox of whether God is so powerful that He can create a rock so large He Himself cannot lift it.  That is because they teach that God is so powerful He can create a creature that He Himself cannot command.  Nonsense.

Petro it really is time to give up a doctrine you cannot offer support for when it is challenged.
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« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2003, 10:30:13 PM »

Quote from: Petro link=board=3;threadid=2195;start=15#msg33582 date=1072459130[/quote
Quote
Why do you not believe HIS WORD, then??

I do believe His word.  I don't believe your interpretation of His word.

Quote
Does that mean that I never stray?  No.

Stray from what?
Quote

Stray from His teachings, stop following Him, in other words sin.  You admit below that you do still sin and so you do stray from following Him.  You do stop obeying (present tense - not past tense like you want people to believe) the Gospel.  If you stray without coming back to following Him, if you sin unrepentantly, if you stop obeying the Gospel - you lose your salvation.



Quote
 If you do not have freewill doesn’t that sin make God the author of that sin?

You would have me believe this, is the truth, but it isn't,  aside from the verse I have shared with you, above many times; the word assures me that inspite of many ( a multitude of sins) offenses  I will be Justified in the because He keeps me in His hand, not having my own righteousness but that which is imputed, so as you can see I do not trust in what I do, but what He has done and will continue to do for me.


I would not have you believe it.  I would have you and everyone else see the illogical conclusion that MUST come from your doctrine of no free will.  Since you ignore the issue and offer no explanation or alternative interpretation I can only assume you don't have one.  Your discussion doesn't even address the issue at hand.  It is not about whether your past, present and future sins are forgiven it is who is the source of the sins you commit.  If you have no free will you must be telling me that God is and that I will not accept.  Time to take responsibility for your own actions.

In one of your previous posts to me you claimed man cannot do as God commands.  If that is so Calvinism seems to have solved the old paradox of whether God is so powerful that He can create a rock so large He Himself cannot lift it.  That is because they teach that God is so powerful He can create a creature that He Himself cannot command.  Nonsense.
Quote

Because you are a creature who places logic above all else, this is how you arrive at your conclusion, unfortunately you have no idea, when it comes to the things of God.

You never answered my question , whether you possess His Spirit, do you?


Will you acknowledgw Him before men, is He your Lord and Savior?


Quote
Petro it really is time to give up a doctrine you cannot offer support for when it is challenged.

Don't be silly.....I encourage you to read the Word and place your trust in it...

It is plain to me you cannot accept things of God by faith, unless they sound and can be proven logically.

Wrong...You can do nothing unless it is given you from above, remember that..

Blessings,
Petro
« Last Edit: December 26, 2003, 10:36:36 PM by Petro » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2003, 01:02:21 PM »


Because you are a creature who places logic above all else, this is how you arrive at your conclusion, unfortunately you have no idea, when it comes to the things of God.

You never answered my question , whether you possess His Spirit, do you?

Will you acknowledgw Him before men, is He your Lord and Savior?

It is plain to me you cannot accept things of God by faith, unless they sound and can be proven logically.

Wrong...You can do nothing unless it is given you from above, remember that..

Blessings,
Petro

No Petro it is you in who I cannot place my trust.  You come up with doctrines that can only be derived by implication from such bizarre interpretations that you yourself are afraid to utter them.  That is what I use logic to test and prove faulty.  That is not placing logic above all - it is placing logic above you.  I am sorry if that offends your pride.

As for your question I have answered it a number of times but you never read the posts carefully enough to see it.  Yes, I have the spirit of Christ in me.  I claim that Jesus is the Lord and no one can do that without the Spirit (1 Cor 12:3)  I do not claim as you do.  But we both know that is just another red herring of yours ducking the real issue between us because you have no answer to support your doctrine.  just because someone has the spirit now doesnot mean they will always have it.

It is not things of God i cannot accept without logic, it is your doctrine, which is not the things of God.  I cannot, and no one should, accept men's interpretation or doctrines unless they make sense from scripture.  Since your doctrine has failed that time and time again you attack a strawman (logic) to avoid the real accuser the scriptures themselves.  

Even these past few posts by you have been nothing but ad hominem attacks because you have used up your few verses that support your position and each have been shown to be lacking.  Having nothing left you had to admit defeat or attack people personally, so you choose the latter.
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« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2003, 06:19:16 PM »


Because you are a creature who places logic above all else, this is how you arrive at your conclusion, unfortunately you have no idea, when it comes to the things of God.

You never answered my question , whether you possess His Spirit, do you?

Will you acknowledgw Him before men, is He your Lord and Savior?

It is plain to me you cannot accept things of God by faith, unless they sound and can be proven logically.

Wrong...You can do nothing unless it is given you from above, remember that..

Blessings,
Petro

No Petro it is you in who I cannot place my trust.  You come up with doctrines that can only be derived by implication from such bizarre interpretations that you yourself are afraid to utter them.  That is what I use logic to test and prove faulty.  That is not placing logic above all - it is placing logic above you.  I am sorry if that offends your pride.

As for your question I have answered it a number of times but you never read the posts carefully enough to see it.  Yes, I have the spirit of Christ in me.  I claim that Jesus is the Lord and no one can do that without the Spirit (1 Cor 12:3)  I do not claim as you do.  But we both know that is just another red herring of yours ducking the real issue between us because you have no answer to support your doctrine.  just because someone has the spirit now doesnot mean they will always have it.

It is not things of God i cannot accept without logic, it is your doctrine, which is not the things of God.  I cannot, and no one should, accept men's interpretation or doctrines unless they make sense from scripture.  Since your doctrine has failed that time and time again you attack a strawman (logic) to avoid the real accuser the scriptures themselves.  

Even these past few posts by you have been nothing but ad hominem attacks because you have used up your few verses that support your position and each have been shown to be lacking.  Having nothing left you had to admit defeat or attack people personally, so you choose the latter.

michael,

I am praying for you, it is important for you to pray for yopurself and wisdom from above, and not trust in the wisdom of this world.

Claiming to know god, won't get known by God.

Blessings,
petro
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« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2003, 06:56:18 AM »

Michael,

Upon who does my salvation depend?
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« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2003, 12:25:50 PM »

Michael,

Upon who does my salvation depend?

It depends first and foremost on God offering the free gift of salvation, through His death on the cross and the message of the Gospel removing the requirement of fulfilling the letter of the law unto death, allowing us instead to respond with love fulfilling the spirit of the law unto life.  If He did not love us first and offer the gift nothing we could do would save us.

But it also depends on us cooperating with that grace through our freewill choice to have a living faith comprised of believing in Jesus as the Son of God in His role as sacrificial lamb and equally important His role as shepherd, so that we take up our cross and follow Him.  Through following Him and obeying the Gospel we add works of love to our faith keeping it alive and perfecting it.  Without those works our faith is nothing more than that mental ascent the demons possess and tremble over.
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« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2003, 12:07:35 AM »

So then my salvation is dependent upon me to some degree?
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« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2003, 12:47:54 AM »

Quote
michael_legna -- My one-word responses are given below:

Yes, we are saved by grace, a free gift of God.  CORRECT

 Through our faith-- A living faith, one that is accompanied by works.  CORRECT

but it is clear that faith alone cannot save it must be perfected and made alive through works -- WRONG.

 I contend that works actually preceed faith -- WRONG

 before you can believe you must repent and repentance (which comes from a military term meaning about-face) is a turning of your life around -- WRONG

So how does this relate to losing your salvation?  It is because you must hold on to the free gift by keeping your faith alive through all the trials and temptations of life.  Else when God ask you what you did with that free gift you will have to answer  - I threw it away -- WRONG

Yes, Crusader, Michael is a Roman Catholic and so provides us with the Catholic interpretation of saving faith.

Michael:

You are partly right and partly wrong, which means the Catholic interpretation of being saved by grace is wholly wrong.

Here's what the Bible actually teaches in Eph. 2:8-9:

1. All are sinners and all need to be saved.
2. All sinners need to (1) believe (2) repent and (3) receive, none of which is a "good work" but simply an honest response to the Gospel
3. Saving faith comes by [spiritual] "hearing" and hearing by the Word of God -- when the genuine Gospel is preached in the power of the Holy Spirit, men and women believe that (1) they are sinners (2) Jesus of Nazareth is the Son of God and that Christ died for their sins (3) Christ rose again for their justification (4) if they repent of their sins and "call upon the name of the Lord" they shall be saved.
4. When a sinner receives Christ as both Lord and Saviour, God saves that sinner by His grace, and gives him or her the gift of eternal life, the gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift of Christ within, the gift of God within!
5. Good works follow as a result of the new birth, but no good works whatsoever and no penance can merit our salvation. The ultimate "good work" was done by Christ Himself and that is sufficient for God the Father.
6. Our redemption was purchased on the cross by the blood of Christ, by the offering up of His body and His soul "an offering for sin", and therefore His righteousness is given to us as a gift --"the robe of righteousness".
7. This is imputed righteousness, and therefore God can justly declare us "NOT GUILTY" and "RIGHTEOUS -- AS PERFECT AS CHRIST". It was on the basis of imputed righteousness that the repentant criminal on the cross beside Christ went to "Paradise" with Christ.
8. It is not for us to "keep our faith alive" but simply believe that "Christ in us is the hope of glory", and that it is "God that worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure".
9. We cannot "lose" our salvation because "GOD IS OUR SALVATION" (that is what the name "Jesus" means) and we become His children for all eternity. That's what the "gift of eternal life" means (Jn. 3:16).
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« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2003, 09:36:24 AM »

So then my salvation is dependent upon me to some degree?

Yes, man plays a role in his own salvation.  We are not under deterministic predestination, we have a free will we can choose not to be saved.  We can reject the free gift.  The Israelites missed it when Christ came and they failed to see their Messiah.
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Matt 5:11  Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:
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