Once Saved, Always Saved

[Ambassador4Christ]

In I Corinthians 3:12, 13 we are told that our works will be made manifest. Good works and bad works will be rewarded accordingly. Verse 14 says "If any mans" work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward." 15 "If any mans work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss." Notice now what Paul says "but he himself shall be saved". The fact is that as believers our works will be rewarded accordingly. However, we will be saved. Other scriptures to support this point are Romans 14:10 and II Corinthians 5:10.

 

[Ambassador4Christ]

"How do we know who (other than ourselves) is actually saved and who is not?"

We can rest in our own salvation but we cannot know for sure who else is saved because it is only God who knows who are His (II Timothy 2:19). Therefore, if we do not know who is saved, then how can we judge who has lost their salvation? Viewing a persons lifestyle is not an accurate and reliable way of determining ones spiritual condition. It would be quite judgmental and presumptuous of us to come to a conclusion based merely on outward performance, especially since it is not our outward performance that saves us.

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi, you must have a guilty conscience for every time I run into you, you are telling me that you are saved, over & over it is stated (bottom line!) so one day you will come to the place that you really believe that false message! Then it will be by, by, for you will be un/reachable if you are not so all ready! Had you ever read Paul's comments in Phil. 3:12-18
(17-18)  Nevermind! Just foget that 'i' asked.
--John
*****

"How do we know who (other than ourselves) is actually saved and who is not?"

We can rest in our own salvation but we cannot know for sure who else is saved because it is only God who knows who are His (II Timothy 2:19). Therefore, if we do not know who is saved, then how can we judge who has lost their salvation? Viewing a persons lifestyle is not an accurate and reliable way of determining ones spiritual condition. It would be quite judgmental and presumptuous of us to come to a conclusion based merely on outward performance, especially since it is not our outward performance that saves us.

 

[Bill]

Thank you for your informative post, but I must take issue with your exegesis....

First we must understand the basis of our salvation. Is salvation based on what we do?

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

These scriptures, and countless others, make it clear that salvation is not based on what we do for God. In fact, it is just the opposite. Our salvation is based on what God did for us (Rom 5:8; 1 Cor 15:3,4; 2 Cor 5:21).

This is, at best, selectively quoting the scriptures.  First, there are numerous texts that say we need to do things in addition, to what God has done for us to stay in the grace of God: Baptism (Acts 2:38, 22:16,  1 Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16), Works (10:17-31, James 2:12-26, Matthew 25:31-46) and enduring until the end (Matt 24:13).  All of these verses either mention salvation, justification, the forgiveness of sins etc. and none of them mention faith alone. While they are all done through God's grace, all of these verses necessitate human action.

Since we can't do anything to be saved, how can we be expected to do anything to stay saved? The scriptures teach that we are secure in Christ and that nothing, not even our own unbelief, can separate us from the love of God once we have trusted in Christ's sacrifice for our sin. (Rom 8:33-39; Phil 1:6; 2 Tim 2:11-13)

Because point one is demonstrably false then point two must also be false, and the biblical record bears this out.  First lets look at the verses you quoted:

33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died – more than that, who was raised to life – is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
   "For your sake we face death all day long;
       we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."[1] 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[2] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I must point out that all the things that St. Paul mentions here are things that are external to the believer.  The text does not say "neither adultery, nor murder, nor any other sin can seperate us from God."   In fact, in his first epistle to the Corinthians, he mentions things that can specifically seperate us from God:

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 (1 Cor 6:9-11)

Paul emphatically declares that although the Corinthians were involved with those activities, but they are now christians and these things are not to be done by them anymore. Unfortunately that's exactly what they had been up to, which necessitated Paul's letter to them.  If they continued in sin, they would not inherit the kingdom.

being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

This verse cannot possibly be used to support Eternal Security for several reasons.  First, Paul nowhere says that the Phillipians had a sure ticket to heaven because he only says that he is confident that the good work will carry it on to completion.  Had he known of the Phillipians eternal security, he would've made the language absolutely certain that they would all be in heaven.  

The rest of the letter bears this out because he warns the Phillipians to "work out their salvation with fear and trembling."  Had they been eternally secure, this verse would make absolutely no sense whatsoever.  Moreover, Paul says explicitly that his salvation had not been attained yet:

I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.  Phillipians 3:10-14

Paul also explains the uncertainty of his salvation to the Corinthians:

Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. (1 Cor 9:24-27)

Paul's explanation of the apostasy of Israel in the following chapter also gives this warning greater depth.  Although the Israelites had been "baptized into Moses" (like Christian baptism) and ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink that we drink (Holy communion), but despite this fact, God was not pleased with most of them and only Caleb and Joshua made it through the desert.  In addition, to say that these people weren’t “true believers” is ludicrous.  This is because the faith of this generation is mentioned in Hebrews 11 along with a group of the greatest Old Testament saints who were no doubt true believers(Hebrews 11:29).  Paul also mentions doubt of the salvation of another individual in his second letter to Timothy:

16May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. 17On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. 18May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus. (2 Tim 1:16-18)

Although Onesiphorus was no doubt a good man of God (since he was dedicated to Paul despite the fact that virtually everyone had abandoned him), but Paul abstains from using language of Onesiphorus’ final destination.  All of this lends a lot more credibility to conditional security than unconditional security.

[Bill]

11Here is a trustworthy saying:
   If we died with him,
       we will also live with him;
    12if we endure,
       we will also reign with him.
   If we disown him,
       he will also disown us;
    13if we are faithless,
       he will remain faithful,
       for he cannot disown himself.

I’m not sure how this verse proves eternal security because verse 12 pretty much makes it clear that if disown Jesus, he will disown us (counterbalanced by the enduring verse).  Verse 13 is the only thing that could possibly be used in to argue eternal security and  this  is absurd for 2 reasons 1) the proceeding verse and 2) the fact that both believers in eternal and conditional security believe that God is a loving God.  All verse 13 proves is that God loves us with an eternal love, however if we “trample the Son of God under foot” all we can expect is judgement.  Paul pleaded with the Galatians to return to the Gospel and said that they had “fallen from grace.”  Why would Paul desperately warn the Corinthians to be reconciled to God or warn them of falling away, why would the writer of Hebrews contain so many explicit warnings if Christians really had no possibility of falling away from salvation?  

We are members of the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:27; Eph 1:22,23, 5:30)
Does Christ cut off parts of his body?

We are sealed with the Holy Spirit (2 Cor 1:22; Eph 1:13,14, 4:30)
Is anyone strong enough to break God's seal?

We are a purchased posession (1 Cor 6:20, 7:23; Eph 1:14)
Does God throw away that which he purchased with his own blood?

We are adopted sons of the Father (Rom 8:15-23; Gal 4:5; Eph 1:5)
Does God disown his sons?

These arguments all take one statement that is obviously true and wed them to a statement that is false by false comparison.  None of the verses you listed explicitly state that because the Christian enjoys the privileges listed that they can be certain that they won’t fall away.  For example, instead of using imagery of Christ separating parts of his body, he uses imagery of Vines and the branches being cut off and burned (John 15:1-8), Paul also uses this same imagery (Romans 11:11-24).  Just because Christ and the Apostles used the imagery to describe the actual event of becoming a Christian doesn’t mean that the same imagery can be used to refute claims that they explicitly dealt with, either by using literal writing, parables or imagery.

It can be easily seen that salvation cannot be lost since, from beginning to end, it is dependent on the work of Christ, not the works of men. Our works can't get us saved, and our works can't keep us saved.

Where does it say that works can’t keep us saved?  Paul (Romans 2:5-16), Jesus (Matt 25:31-46) and James (James 2:14-26) all say that our salvation is dependent on works.  

But don't scriptures such as Heb 6:4-6, 10:26,27 and 2 Pet 2:20-22 teach that salvation can be lost if we don't continue in good works? Yes, they do! However, these scriptures are not written to the body of Christ in the dispensation of the grace of God. They are written to believers under the Jewish dispensation

At least you deal more honestly with the passages in question than do most believers of eternal security.  However, your only recourse to prevent you from taking these verses to their logical conclusion is to rely on a human tradition invented by John Nelson Darby a little over 100 years ago!  I must ask, how do you know when the Jewish Dispensation ended.  Did a bell toll and all the churches in the ancient world automatically say “thank goodness these verses aren’t part of the scriptures anymore!”?  In addition, how do you rebuke liberal Protestants, Diests and the Jesus Seminar folks when they ignore or toss out scriptures because they don’t agree with their presuppositions.  I guess I shouldn’t be surprised though, this type of reasoning isn’t new to Protestantism.  Afterall, it was Luther who excluded James from his canon of scripture because it obviously contradicted his man made “faith only” theory.

While I appreciate your concern for me having absolute assurance of salvation, I came to the conclusion a long time ago that Eternal Security is utterly foreign to both Sacred Scriptures and Sacred Tradition.

Sincerely,
Bill

[Ambassador4Christ]

Thanks John Boy and Billy, as you both know, by my studies I know your both wrong.  

[Ambassador4Christ]

The Following is from the writings of Harry Wellington, I have added this to my studies. You can read the entire study at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/3717/wellington3.html

Yes, it is an indisputable scriptural fact, that once a person has been scripturally saved, that person has been irreversibly saved for both time and eternity.

Salvation, is a once in a lifetime, instantaneous, irreversible event. It is received entirely "BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH" and is the "GIFT" of God, i.e., as being totally apart from any form or degree of human merit; that is, "NOT OF OURSELVES" e.g. Eph 2:8,9, Titus 3:5, Rom 10:9-10, Gal 2:16,23. etc.

Salvation, is therefore in no way dependent upon performing any one of the external rites, and rituals, encountered in any one of mankind's numerous religious bodies. Salvation is indeed the free gift of God's Grace, as freely bestowed upon all who truly seek it, through unfeigned faith in Christ Jesus.

[John the Baptist]

Hi, John here: Why not start your own thread? Good material!
It would be nice 'seperated' from the other printed stuff that you are having to deal with here. This way some of us could print your sound remarks for use elsewhere? (if there were no objection's from you-I don't see any copy right infringments by the forum anywhere?)

Yet, you are surely not getting through to one of these 'finished' once saved ones of Heb. 1-6, 'me' thinks? (if he is converted in the first place )
--John
*****

Thank you for your informative post, but I must take issue with your exegesis....

First we must understand the basis of our salvation. Is salvation based on what we do?

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

These scriptures, and countless others, make it clear that salvation is not based on what we do for God. In fact, it is just the opposite. Our salvation is based on what God did for us (Rom 5:8; 1 Cor 15:3,4; 2 Cor 5:21).

This is, at best, selectively quoting the scriptures.  First, there are numerous texts that say we need to do things in addition, to what God has done for us to stay in the grace of God: Baptism (Acts 2:38, 22:16,  1 Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16), Works (10:17-31, James 2:12-26, Matthew 25:31-46) and enduring until the end (Matt 24:13).  All of these verses either mention salvation, justification, the forgiveness of sins etc. and none of them mention faith alone. While they are all done through God's grace, all of these verses necessitate human action.

Since we can't do anything to be saved, how can we be expected to do anything to stay saved? The scriptures teach that we are secure in Christ and that nothing, not even our own unbelief, can separate us from the love of God once we have trusted in Christ's sacrifice for our sin. (Rom 8:33-39; Phil 1:6; 2 Tim 2:11-13)

Because point one is demonstrably false then point two must also be false, and the biblical record bears this out.  First lets look at the verses you quoted:

33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died – more than that, who was raised to life – is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
   "For your sake we face death all day long;
       we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."[1] 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[2] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I must point out that all the things that St. Paul mentions here are things that are external to the believer.  The text does not say "neither adultery, nor murder, nor any other sin can seperate us from God."   In fact, in his first epistle to the Corinthians, he mentions things that can specifically seperate us from God:

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 (1 Cor 6:9-11)

Paul emphatically declares that although the Corinthians were involved with those activities, but they are now christians and these things are not to be done by them anymore. Unfortunately that's exactly what they had been up to, which necessitated Paul's letter to them.  If they continued in sin, they would not inherit the kingdom.

being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

This verse cannot possibly be used to support Eternal Security for several reasons.  First, Paul nowhere says that the Phillipians had a sure ticket to heaven because he only says that he is confident that the good work will carry it on to completion.  Had he known of the Phillipians eternal security, he would've made the language absolutely certain that they would all be in heaven.  

The rest of the letter bears this out because he warns the Phillipians to "work out their salvation with fear and trembling."  Had they been eternally secure, this verse would make absolutely no sense whatsoever.  Moreover, Paul says explicitly that his salvation had not been attained yet:

I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.  Phillipians 3:10-14

Paul also explains the uncertainty of his salvation to the Corinthians:

Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. (1 Cor 9:24-27)

Paul's explanation of the apostasy of Israel in the following chapter also gives this warning greater depth.  Although the Israelites had been "baptized into Moses" (like Christian baptism) and ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink that we drink (Holy communion), but despite this fact, God was not pleased with most of them and only Caleb and Joshua made it through the desert.  In addition, to say that these people weren’t “true believers” is ludicrous.  This is because the faith of this generation is mentioned in Hebrews 11 along with a group of the greatest Old Testament saints who were no doubt true believers(Hebrews 11:29).  Paul also mentions doubt of the salvation of another individual in his second letter to Timothy:

16May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. 17On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. 18May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus. (2 Tim 1:16-18)

Although Onesiphorus was no doubt a good man of God (since he was dedicated to Paul despite the fact that virtually everyone had abandoned him), but Paul abstains from using language of Onesiphorus’ final destination.  All of this lends a lot more credibility to conditional security than unconditional security.

[Bill]

If you wanted to start a new thread with the material I posted, that's fine by me.  I won't be in town for a couple of days so if you want to put it up immediately for discussion that's cool.

Sincerely,
Bill

[Ambassador4Christ]

If you were to die right now and God were to ask you, "Why should I let you into my heaven?" Could you now say with confidence based on the authority of the Word of God, Because Christ died "FOR" my sins!

[GarColga]

Ambassador4Christ, don't you have any shame? Just about every post that you've made on this thread has been lifted off other websites on the net.

You've stolen heavily from this copyrighted article:

http://www.bereanbiblechurch.com/studies/study12.html

By posting copyrighted material and trying to pass it off as your own, aren't you just plain sinning?

You must be "The Crusader" from before the hack. He did the same thing all the time.

[Ambassador4Christ]

Ambassador4Christ, don't you have any shame? Just about every post that you've made on this thread has been lifted off other websites on the net.

You've stolen heavily from this copyrighted article:

http://www.bereanbiblechurch.com/studies/study12.html

By posting copyrighted material and trying to pass it off as your own, aren't you just plain sinning?

You must be "The Crusader" from before the hack. He did the same thing all the time.

Sure LOL   Whats with you?  

Christ died for sinners. He died for you and for me. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:21. Knowing that WE ARE ALL SINNERS we need to understand that God will pour out His wrath upon sin. Romans 2:5, 6 says "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:" Romans 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is DEATH; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Please read Revelation 20:10 - 15 for a description of "death") In order to avoid Gods wrath, all of our sins must be remitted. Websters dictionary defines remit as "to release from the guilt or penalty of". God has provided a way to be TOTALLY forgiven for our sins and that way is Jesus Christ, Gods Son. Romans 3:25 " Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;". God will FREELY impute (credit) the righteousness of Christ for your justification. Romans 3:24 says "Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:". Now all that you must do to receive this free gift is BELIEVE. Romans 3:26 says "To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of Him which believeth in Jesus.

[Ambassador4Christ]

No matter how sinful your life has been God can save you by the completed work of Jesus Christ at the Cross. Simply know that you are a sinner in need of a Saviour and that God will punish sin. Know that Christ died on the cross for your sins and was raised on the third day for your justification. Know that salvation is a free gift by the grace of God. Believe in Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins and God will give you eternal life. Its that simple!

[John the Baptist]

Hi, John here:
Is this your Christiasn converted brother?   Read Rev. 18:4. And the Lord will rest His case with [your] freedom of DECISION! The word is not shame, it is CONSCIENCE! Have you read the Words of 'Quench' & 'Grieve' in the Master's Word? See Gen. 6:3 for the Holy Spirits STRIVING! And James 1:15 for sin's FINISHED work.

By the way, the sites owner is now an open partaker of this crime, & evil work,  huh?---John
************************

Ambassador4Christ, don't you have any shame? Just about every post that you've made on this thread has been lifted off other websites on the net.

You've stolen heavily from this copyrighted article:

http://www.bereanbiblechurch.com/studies/study12.html

By posting copyrighted material and trying to pass it off as your own, aren't you just plain sinning?

You must be "The Crusader" from before the hack. He did the same thing all the time.

[Saved_4ever]

It's such a shame John that you trust in yourself and not the LORD Jesus.  You keep distorting what you read to make yourself your saviour and not Christ.  According to you Christs blood was not good enough to cover our sins but your FILTHY works can.  So sad John so sad.