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John the Baptist
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« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2003, 01:05:22 PM »

Hi, John here:
I heard a Baptist friend preach a sermon on this one time. And it seems that the sermon's message is dwelt on 'continuely', huh?

Any way, back to my 'spiritual blind' friend. As 'i' listened to his message i became convinced that he was preaching to himself! Trying perhaps as the ones seen posting here are doing? With following up posts of nothing more than that of AMEN? He kept repeating in the sermon that I REALLY BELIEVE THIS TEACHING! Over & over the words were repeated through the sermon. How could the Holy Spirit 'lead' in this presumptous blind stuff?

Then there is another friend that was in the Baptist seminary.
He ran into trouble with the 'pricks' of the Holy Spirit on this very subject. It got so bad that he took all of his books home & put them in the basement. And left the seminary.

Finally he became so depressed that he finally ran into the path of an uncoming truck. It was his wife that ran ahead to flag down the trucker & save his life.

Anyhow, some time passed, & the Holy Spirit 'led' him back into the Word of God, and take a guess what prayerfully followed? Rom. 8:14

---John
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« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2003, 01:13:47 PM »

When we hear the gospel of our salvation and we believe that message then we are at that point sealed by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ. Ephesians 1:13 says "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,". What we want to notice in this verse is that upon believing the gospel we are "sealed" into our salvation. This sealing takes place by the Holy Spirit, which is the third member of the Godhead. God promises us that upon our belief in the gospel, He will seal us into the Body of Christ.

 

In the Scriptures a seal signifies three things:

A Finished Transaction - In Jeremiah 32:9-10, the passage signifies the meaning of being sealed as a finished transaction. Here Jeremiah buys the field of Hanameel with money as God has instructed him to do. In verse ten the transaction is sealed, it is finished. (Other scripture references are John 17:4 and 19:30)
 

Ownership Jeremiah 32:11 and 12 explains of evidence of a completed purchase being taken to Baruch. Later in verse 13, 14, and 15 Jeremiah tells Baruch to take the evidences of the purchase and put then in an earthen vessel. Jeremiah has the right to do this because he has ownership of the land.
 

II Timothy 2:19 says "the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His." God has ownership of a believer. The Holy Spirit has sealed the purchase.

 

Security In Esther 8:8 King Ahasuerus says "Write ye also for the Jew, as it liketh you, in the kings name, and seal it with the kings ring: for the writing which is written in the kings name, and sealed with the kings ring, may no man reverse." The verse teaches that the writing that is written in the kings name and sealed with the kings ring may no man reverse. The same principle applies to the King of Kings. God has sealed believers of today into the Body of Christ and now nothing can reverse that sealing. It is a secure seal. (Other references are Daniel 6:17 and Ephesians 4:30).
 

As I stated before, the sealing of the Holy Spirit takes place as a result of a person believing the gospel of salvation (Ephesians 1:13). The Holy Spirit takes us and places us into one body the Body of Christ. This is called the baptism by the Holy Spirit. I Corinthians 12:13 says "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." Please notice hear that we are not baptized into the Holy Spirit but rather the Holy Spirit is baptizing us into the Body of Christ (I Cor. 12:13, 27). Ephesians 4:4 says, "There is one body" which is the Body of Christ and which we are placed into by the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 4:5 says that there is "one baptism" and the baptism by the Holy Spirit is this one baptism which is our seal of salvation. Please also notice that this is not a water baptism since it is performed by the Holy Spirit. The word "baptized" is often assumed to always be associated with water. However, we can conclude that this is not a water baptism because it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that seals our salvation. If we are to believe that the baptism referred to in I Corinthians 12:13 is with water then we must also believe that water baptism is necessary for salvation. However, we know that NO physical works are required for salvation by reading Ephesians 2:8, and 9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

 

So it is the baptism by the Holy Spirit that seals our salvation. We know this because it is through our baptism into the Body of Christ that we receive identification with Christs death, burial, and resurrection. Again, please remember that they Holy Spirit baptizes us upon our belief in the gospel (Eph. 1:13). Romans 6:3 says, "so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?" (This is our identification with Christs death). Romans 6:4 says "Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death" (identification with Christs burial.). Verse 4 also says "that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father even as we also should walk in newness of life." (Our identification with Christs resurrection). Verse five says "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God". As a result of us being identified with Christs death, burial, and resurrection then verse 22 says we are free from sin and we have "everlasting life". Verse 22 says "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." Therefore, we can conclude that our sealing by the Holy Spirit, which is a final, secure transaction, places us into the Body of Christ. As a result of the baptism (identification) by the Holy Spirit we receive everlasting life. We can count on that as being hidden in Christ and we will never be removed.

 

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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2003, 01:40:01 PM »

 
   
    Rev 2:1   Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;  
   
    Rev 2:2   I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:  
   
    Rev 2:3  And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.  
   
    Rev 2:4  Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.  
   
    Rev 2:5   Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
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« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2003, 01:45:32 PM »


   
    Rev 2:1   Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;  
   
    Rev 2:2   I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:  
   
    Rev 2:3  And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.  
   
    Rev 2:4  Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.  
   
    Rev 2:5   Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.


Its Gods Word, and they are good verses, but what do they mean to you Bro Huh
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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2003, 02:00:43 PM »

Ambassador quote..."Its Gods Word, and they are good verses, but what do they mean to you Bro  Huh

 Bronzesnake reply... It means exactly what it says.
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« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2003, 02:42:26 PM »

For consideration I would like to respectfully point out that the verses from Revelation are to churches, or some believe to church ages, but they are not written to individual believers.

In His Grace...
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« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2003, 04:22:44 PM »

We will look at some scriptures that are used to support the opposition and well look at why those scriptures are used inappropriately when opposing eternal security. Basically there are three arguments that are used against eternal security. There is the argument based on the assumed effect of security teaching. There is also the argument based on observance of others, and finally there is the scriptural argument.

 

"Effect Argument": The first argument in opposition of eternal security that we are discussing is based on a belief that through teaching a secure state of salvation there will be an effect upon the believer that results in a careless manner of life. We will refer to this as the Effect Argument. It is feared by some that a believer will become unafraid of the consequences of sin if they are taught that they will never lose their salvation. Our first point of defense to this argument is:

1.) There are natural consequences to sin that are meant to deter believers from living a careless life. However, the consequence is not a loss of their standing as a Christian. When a believer sins they will suffer consequences here on earth and will also suffer loss at the Judgement Seat of Christ. What better scriptures to illustrate this point than from Corinthians? Paul writes to "them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus" at Corinth (I Cor. 1:2). Which means that the ones Paul is writing directly to are those who are saved. Pauls purpose for writing to the Corinthians was to rebuke them for their carnal behavior or their poor Christian conduct. In I Corinthians 11 they were inappropriately observing the Lords Supper. Verse 21 says that they were not waiting on one another, some eat out of hunger while others become drunk. In verse 30 we see the natural consequences of their actions taking affect. After over eating to satisfy their bellies and becoming drunk they become "weak and sickly". God has established a system of responses in our bodies that reacts in a way that corresponds to our actions. For example if we were to get drunk or overeat we may become sick or weak as the Corinthians did. Perhaps in our modern age when we become intoxicated the consequences could be even worse than sickness. We may injure or kill ourselves or someone else while driving intoxicated. Perhaps some of you may have experienced the results of being intoxicated by alcohol or maybe you have been the victim. There are many other things that can be done to our physical bodies that may trigger sufferings in our lives physically, mentally, emotionally, or spiritually. Im sure we can imagine the results such things as drug abuse, fornication, drunkenness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, stealing, etc. These natural consequences that we speak of can also be referred to as "sowing and reaping". Galatians 6:7, 8 say "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."

 

God has established this system of response in order that we may be rebuked or chastened when we sin. We must make ourselves perfectly clear here on one point before continuing. The chastisement that we speak of here is not a super-natural response of God as judgement upon us but rather God has pre-programmed in our lives a natural response or consequence for our actions, good or bad. It is important that we understand that the sufferings that we experience today as members of the Body of Christ are different than the sufferings of the world prior to the current dispensation of Grace. In prior dispensations God placed super-natural judgements upon mankind as a result of their iniquities. For example in 2 Kings 2:23, 24 as Elisha went up to Bethel little children mocked him as they said "Go up, thou bald head". As punishment upon these children God sends two she bears out of the woods to attack 42 children. This type of judgment or chastisement is considered to be supernatural. However, today we suffer in our physical bodies as a natural (as opposed to supernatural) result of our sins, as the Corinthians did.

 

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Bronzesnake
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« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2003, 07:42:31 PM »

For consideration I would like to respectfully point out that the verses from Revelation are to churches, or some believe to church ages, but they are not written to individual believers.

In His Grace...

 We are the church. Jesus wasn't talking to buildings.
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John the Baptist
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« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2003, 09:28:32 PM »


*******
John here:
God created mankind with a sense of reason. (most men still retain 'some')  But some cannot even connect the words with the same meaning together. Some one posted about the seal of God & the seal in the ring thought. So some verses are getting 'some' connection. But it is a good thing that Rev. 12:9 connects such names of dragon, serpent, 'd'evil, 's'atan, and his angels, or one would still be guessing who it was that  was talking to Eve in the garden.

But most will not admit to the fact that a BELIEF IN CHRIST IS A FAITH IN CHRIST, AND ANY BELIEF OR FAITH CLAIM WITHOUT WORKS [IS DEAD BEING ALONE]! They think that 1/2 man is some kind of Gospel Cry.

Your verses are good ones! They teach that Christ is about to have ENOUGH of this FOOLISH LUKEWARM 'BELIEF' & THIS 'FAITH' OF NOTHINGNESS! And 'SPEWED OUT' means just that. Their 'believing only' love doctrine make Him sick. Rev. 3:16-17.

His presence is leaving ALL the professed bodies of 'c'hristianity, and one can quickly see the outcome in the world today. Just take a peek in the news! And Look at their Mother? and their message still is? "Only Believe" That message [alone] is not even good for Hog/wash! See 2 Peter 2:19-22 "... the sow [THAT WAS WASHED] to her wallowing in the mire." "And the DOG IS TURNED TO HIS OWN VOMIT [AGAIN]. ..."

AND CHRIST SAID: "And he that TAKETH NOT HIS CROSS, AND FOLLOWETH AFTER ME, *IS NOT WORTHY OF ME". Matt. 10:38 (and they cry, only believe & do not even know what that means!) All is well in the 'WORK' of Gen. 4:7, huh?

----John
*******    

    Rev 2:1   Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;  
   
    Rev 2:2   I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:  
   
    Rev 2:3  And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.  
   
    Rev 2:4  Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.  
   
    Rev 2:5   Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

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« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2003, 11:04:02 PM »

Bronzesnake  - "We are the church. Jesus wasn't talking to buildings."

No, Jesus wasn't talking to buildings, nor was he speaking to individuals.

We are part of a collective body made up of many parts, yet none of us by ourselves is that body anymore than my toe is is the totality of who I am. Together we are the Church, the called out ones. Individually we are sons of God.

The context of Revelation 2 is to specific churches (as you can see ) but the text does not mention individual churches.

If my church were to lose it's "candlestick" and stop being effective for God I would not cease to be His.  By the leading of His Spirit I would be led to another place to be of service to my Father, my King.

Nothing can snatch me from His Hand.
The context of Revelation will not contradict this Truth.

In His grace...

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John the Baptist
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« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2003, 11:51:01 PM »


*******
Hi, John here again, Smiley!
About your post. In Matt. 25 we see a Virgin set of Doctrines with a SHUT DOOR.
(Christless/but still Virgin Doctrines) If one 'believes' (faith) the Word of God, then Rev's seven denominations are NOTHING NEW. (read Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15)

If one can get this far?? Let's check out Israel of old & their removal of their candelstick. There was a MIDNIGHT CRY! And then in 70 AD there was a loud Cry. The only ones saved were the ones who left & followed Christ out into His New denomination. (both were on the seen at the same time)

First the [midnight cry] from Rev.'s Philadelphians to Israel's Laodicea. Matt. 23:38 states PLAINLY that their house (denomination) was left unto them DESOLATE! (in the midst of the week the Master was cut OFF!)

Now: A new denomination was started up to replace the ones that FELL AWAY. Yet they STAYED PUT, huh? (interesting)
Who took over LAODICEA's Israel of old? And the LAST LAODICEA?? Read Rev. 3:9. Then verse 10 tell us the 6th denomination was on the sceen the same time for Philadelphia were to be kept from the Mark of the Beast hour! (earths final Sabbath/Sunday testing)

By the way, read 1 Peter 4:17! The Mark of the Beast is the professed Christian worlds testing!

According to God's Eccl.'s verses history has been repeated! (or is doing so at present) Notice Rev. 12:17's history repeating. The 'd'evil was wroth with the woman, (but he had her! when Christ was put out)  and went to make war with the REMNANT of her seed, which KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD (not just believe! or keep some other 'new' stuff) and HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST."!! (see 2 Cor. 3:3 for Christ testimony or letter in us)

Compare with Matt. 10:23?
Remember that Christ was already here on earth at the time speaking! (who was at that time doing the persecuting?)

The Lord & Paul state that the Lord will make SHORT WORK of the end this time around! No more 37 yrs. to 70AD. (mark of the beast) And as before, there are new born babes in Christ that will need to leave both old & new Israel before or at the 666 testing.

---John
******    

   
    Rev 2:1   Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;  
   
    Rev 2:2   I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:  
   
    Rev 2:3  And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.  
   
    Rev 2:4  Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.  
   
    Rev 2:5   Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

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« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2003, 12:05:57 AM »

Quote
   
    Rev 2:1  Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;  
   
    Rev 2:2  I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:  
   
    Rev 2:3   And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.  
   
    Rev 2:4   Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.  
   
    Rev 2:5  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

The question in this verse is what is this place that is spoken of?  Uniquely, the ESV translates it as "it's" place, as does the NIV, NASB, and NKJV.  The wording is possessive, not positional.  The purpose of any candle is to put out light.  Question, what would the purpose of my light in heaven filled with the glory of God serve?  Moreover, the image portrayed in this passage is one that Christ portrayed earlier in Matthew 5:13-16...

Quote
"You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet.
"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.  Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house.  In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

Again, is Jesus speaking of eternal consequence or temporal influence?  That is to say, is He speaking of an individual's standing before God, or that same individual's influence on a sickly and dark world?  Contextually, I believe that to say He is speaking of the salvific condition of the light bearer is in error; rather, that He speaks of that one's testimony to the lost.

Heurmenutic folks.  It's a marvelous thing! Grin
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« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2003, 09:02:09 AM »

Hi John here:
It is too late to wast ones time. Let me be BLUNT, LOVINGLY, OK?

This subject is a good one to understand. It can be understood best as seen in correct VIRGIN settings, OK? Please know that 'i' am not endorsing the denomination's MEMBERSHIP that of the site below i will post. Yet, the Master gave 'instructions' in Matt. 23:3 & called them VIRGIN in Doctrine in Matt. 25.

So i personally find this below 'study' simplified by the very closely studied doctrine of the Sanctuary. Read Psalm's 77:13! And this study below is a VERY GOOD one. (Please SAVE the site! And yet, remember that Israel of old DID this actual WORK, yet they were LEFT 'DESOLATE'! Matt. 23:38)
Here is the site:

http://biblelight.net/temple.htm

---John
******

Bronzesnake  - "We are the church. Jesus wasn't talking to buildings."

No, Jesus wasn't talking to buildings, nor was he speaking to individuals.

We are part of a collective body made up of many parts, yet none of us by ourselves is that body anymore than my toe is is the totality of who I am. Together we are the Church, the called out ones. Individually we are sons of God.

The context of Revelation 2 is to specific churches (as you can see ) but the text does not mention individual churches.

If my church were to lose it's "candlestick" and stop being effective for God I would not cease to be His.  By the leading of His Spirit I would be led to another place to be of service to my Father, my King.

Nothing can snatch me from His Hand.
The context of Revelation will not contradict this Truth.

In His grace...


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« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2003, 09:55:23 AM »

I want to correct something I mis-typed in my previous post.

I typed, "The context of Revelation 2 is to specific churches (as you can see ) but the text does not mention individual churches." It should have read ,"the text does not mention individuals".  Sorry.... it was a late night.

Allinall - Good post! You said it much better than I.

John the Baptist - I do not want to waste my time either, so perhaps it was time that I was "lovingly blunt".

I have no desire to get into one of your "circular" arguments in which you asked all the questions and refuse to respond coherently to any put forth to you. I asked the same sincere questions several times in the 'subverters of souls' thread under the "You Name It" tab without ever receiving a direct response.  Whether I had agreed or not a coherent, scriptural response would have at least let me understand what you were saying.

I did check out the "Seventh Day Adventist" (or Adventist like) link that you posted in reply, but quite honestly I don't consider going to your message board to get in another circular discussion, to be the same thing as a direct response from you (huh?).

And I preferred not to e-mail you directly. As the conversation and the questions had been public it seemed fitting , and possibly edifying to others (that is why we post after all ), to have the responses in the same fashion.

You seem like a nice guy, and I do not question your sincerity, so let me post those same questions here, yet another time.

1. Scripturally, how do you consider the two covenants to instead be one combined covenant?

2. If you believe that the Old Covenant was not abolished how do you view 2 Corinthians chapter 3, and Hebrews chapter 8 ?

The specific verses are:

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?" 2 Corinthians 3: 7-8.

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. " Hebrews 8:7

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrew 8:13.


Unless you are going to respond directly, scripturally, and coherently, then please.....don't waste my time.


In His Good And Everlasting Grace....
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« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2003, 09:18:53 AM »

What is a testament/covenant?

A contract.

So in the old contract we have the law/10 comandments +.  Jesus paid the price and the old contract is fullfilled.

Now we have the new contract, which is mentioned in the old contract and it is reported that the old contract would end and the new one would take over.

So what are the rules of the new contract?

John 3:16

So, therefore, when Ye have fullfilled the requirements of the new contract you have the benefits of the new contract. (Heaven as your home)

What if you break the requirements of the new contract?

Well what happens when any contract is broken, the preveiling party comes and takes his property.  We are the property and the owning party is God.  when You place your name on the line you become his.  

you say you do not want to be his any longer but he has a contract with your name written on it.  so it does not matter what you want, you are bought with a price, you do not belong to you anymore; so you have to now live with the King of Kings who bought you with a price.  No one can snatch them out of his hand, not even yourself.

It does not matter what you want anylonger, once you place your X on the line you are crucified with Christ, you no longer live but it is Christ that lives with in you.  you have died and there is a new resident living within the temple and He says it is his dwelling place.  His house/castle/humble abode ETC.  

You have no rights because dead people can't talk for themselves, so the King of kings who is your Advocate/lawyer who has Power of Attorney Speaks for you and he is also the Judge, And that is not to Shabby, the Judge is the Attorney.  

so on one hand the Attorney calls the owner and asks who owns the property, Oh ,I forgot to Add that the owner is the Attorney who is the Judge, who is also the one who wrote the contract in the first place,  It looks like He has conspired with Himself to keep us in His home forever.  

You know this is getting us no-where because we can't win back our soul once we have given it willfully to the new resident/Owner/Attorney/Contract writer/Judge Jesus
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