A Progressive Dispensational View

[Superfundy]

Wasn't sure where to enter a discussion, so I guess I will begin one.

This is rather controversial, so I hope it is accepted in the spirit with which it is offered.

A Progressive Dispensational View
 
A few years ago I began to question the conclusions of Classical (Darby) Dispensationalism. I questioned why, if Israels "program" had been temporarily "suspended", did Paul (quoting Moses) say that gentile salvation was given to make unbelieving Israel jealous? Jealous of what?? Surely not the Church which, according to Darbyism, has no stake in anything promised to Israel.

Why, if the Church itself is never mentioned in any way in the Old Testament, do the Apostles refer to the Old Testament so many times in the New, and that in the context of the Church?

Why, if the New Covenant to Israel is not to be initiated until after the second coming of Christ, did Jesus, Paul, and the writer of Hebrews, all mention it in the context of the ministry of the Church?

Why does God apparently have multiple means of salvation, one for the unbelieving Jew, and one for the Church?

Why, if Jesus has broken down the middle wall of partition between us (Jews and Gentiles) are there yet divisions in the New Testament, two gospel messages, some books for the Jewish believers, and some for the Gentiles?

These are some of the basic questions which I sought to answer, and did. And then I found out that others had already blazed a trail ahead of me some years earlier, asking the same questions, and finding the exact same answers I did.

Firstly, I do not believe that Israel has been "cast aside" nor do I believe that the New Covenant offer to Israel has been withdrawn, as many classical dispensationalists and replacement theologians do. In fact, the New Covenant was established with a believing remnant of Israel (Luke 22:20), which at the first were called his disciples, were the subject of Jesus statement at Mat 23:34, and then at Acts 2 were called The ekklesia (The Church).

Paul agreed with this view according to Rom 11:1, 2, & 5. Certainly we cannot gleen from Pauls words in these verses that Israels program has been suspended (the parentheses), nor obviously, that Israel has been "replaced". Quite the contrary to both conclusions, there is only a partial blindness that has happened to Israel according to Rom 11:25, which indicates quite clearly that there is a "remnant" that is not blinded. As Paul puts it, they are the "remnant according to the the election of grace" (Rom 11:5). Not only this but the tense and context of that verse indicates that this "election of grace" was also true for each generations "remnant" throughout Israels entire history, and it is obviously still true today.

This tells us that salvation by grace through faith has always been Gods way, even prior to the cross, and the Old Testament saints were saved "retroactively" so to speak, for the remnant who died in faith (Heb 9:15). "That they should not be made perfect apart from us." (Heb 11:40). And so that "in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth, even in Him (Eph 1:10).

This union of Old Testament and New Testament believers is spoken of in a past tense by Paul; "For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named." (Eph 3:14,15).

Therefore, the "all Israel" of Rom 11:26 = The "Remnant of Israel" in Rom 9:27.

Where is this remnant of Israel today (in this dispensation), if not in the Church?

The Olive tree parable confirms this conclusion. Those Israelis who do not accept their Messiah, are called "natural branches" that have been "broken off" from the "good tree". The fact that only some of the natural branches were broken off, means that a remnant are/were not. And it means that gentiles are grafted in among them (Israel)(Rom 11:17). This illustrates a continuity of the believing remnant of Israel both before and after Christ's death and resurrection.

All of this indicates that God is, and has always been, continually "progressively", fulfilling his covenants and promises with Israel, but only with the believing remnant. And it indicates too, that this is no change for Israel at all. Rather, this is just as it has always been for them throughout their history.

With which Paul also agreed again in Acts 26:6-7.

The only difference now is "the mystery"; that the Gentiles are co-heirs, and fellow citizens with the saints (Rom 8:17, Eph 2:19, Gal 3:26). They are the unnatural branches graft into the good tree. It is important that replacement theologians be made to understand that unnatural branches remain unnatural even (as believers) graft into the tree. And it is equally crucial that classical dispensationalists are made to understand that natural branches (as unbelievers) remain natural broken away from it, or re-graft (as believers) back into it.

These are crucial truths in my opinion.

I believe this solves the supposed OT-NT discontinuity problems which the classical (Darby/Dallas) dispensational doctrine was intially proposed to solve. Unfortunately, today the system has been run so far afoul of that purpose, it has lost it's effectiveness in that regard.

So.....now, (from this perspective), there is good reason for Israel to be jealous of gentile salvation, and no biblical logic to saying God is no longer dealing with Israel in this dispensation (Rom 10:19, Rom 11:11). After all, their return to the land shoould have laid that assertion to rest completely. Now there is nothing strange or controversial about Old Testament references applied to the Church in the New Testament (i.e. Acts 2:15-21, Acts 10:43, Acts 15:14-18, Rom. 1:1,2, Rom. 4:13-17,23,24, Rom. 9:32,33, Rom. 15:4,8-10, 2 Cor. 6:16-7:1). No more controversy about the New Covenant being applied to the Church (i.e. 1 Cor 11:25-26 & Heb 8:6-13). And most importantly, no more need to try and figure out why God seems to have multiple methods of salvation (grace through faith has always been Gods method for all of time), and no more reason to rebuild the wall of partition by cutting the New Testament up into ethnically assigned bits and pieces. (Thank you Lord!)

[nChrist]

Hello Superfundy,

The only dispensations or dispensational entities I pay any attention to are taught in the Holy Bible. They must be understood to "Rightly divide the Word of Truth".

As bare-bone basics:

1 - Israel is not the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. GOD made promises to Israel that haven't been fulfilled yet, but GOD'S Promises will be fulfilled most perfectly at HIS Appointed Time.

2 - THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST is not Israel. GOD made promises to Israel that don't apply to THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. GOD also made promises to THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST that don't apply to Israel. All of GOD'S Promises to THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST haven't been fulfilled yet, but GOD'S Promises will be fulfilled most perfectly at HIS Appointed time.

Here's a little exercise to help you understand why distinctions must be made between various entities and dispensations:

Isaiah 2:1-5 NASB
The word which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. Now it will come about that In the last days The mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains, And will be raised above the hills; And all the nations will stream to it. And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And He will judge between the nations, And will render decisions for many peoples; And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they learn war. Come, house of Jacob, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

Isaiah 9:2-7 NASB
The people who walk in darkness Will see a great light; Those who live in a dark land, The light will shine on them. You shall multiply the nation, You shall increase their gladness; They will be glad in Your presence As with the gladness of harvest, As men rejoice when they divide the spoil. For You shall break the yoke of their burden and the staff on their shoulders, The rod of their oppressor, as at the battle of Midian. For every boot of the booted warrior in the battle tumult, And cloak rolled in blood, will be for burning, fuel for the fire. For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

One could ask many questions about the above portions of Scripture, but I'll only ask three:

1 - Has the above already happened and been fulfilled?  YES  or  NO

2 - If "NO" is the answer to question number one, will the above happen and be fulfilled?  YES  or  NO

3 - Which people does the above apply to, and which dispensation is being discussed?

[Superfundy]

As bare-bone basics:

1 - Israel is not the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST.

2 - THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST is not Israel.

I agree.

Did you read my post?

I never said either of those things and in fact oppose such doctrines.

Here's a little exercise to help you understand why distinctions must be made between various entities and dispensations:

One could ask many questions about the above portions of Scripture, but I'll only ask three:

1 - Has the above already happened and been fulfilled?  YES  or  NO

2 - If "NO" is the answer to question number one, will the above happen and be fulfilled?  YES  or  NO

3 - Which people does the above apply to, and which dispensation is being discussed?

Has God ever directly fulfilled his promises to Israel with them that did not believe? YES or NO

You must take into account the NT teaching regarding Israel, in order to understand that their current condition (i.e. some believing, most not) is nothing new to them. Otherwise you make the mistake that many were making at Jesus first advent. That is, that being "Israel in the flesh" is sufficient to be among Gods elect. It just isn't so, and never has been.

[nChrist]

Has God ever directly fulfilled his promises to Israel with them that did not believe? YES or NO

You must take into account the NT teaching regarding Israel, in order to understand that their current condition (i.e. some believing, most not) is nothing new to them. Otherwise you make the mistake that many were making at Jesus first advent. That is, that being "Israel in the flesh" is sufficient to be among Gods elect. It just isn't so, and never has been.

Hello Superfundy,

I didn't state any personal beliefs - just some Bible facts. That's why I asked a most basic question about Bible Prophecy that has not been fulfilled yet. You appeared to be having difficulty understanding, so I offered an example in an attempt to help you. I won't be arguing or debating this either. The answers are Bible Facts, and you can take them or leave them. One does have to go back to the basics of "Rightly dividing the Word of Truth" to understand these Bible Facts. The Bible Facts concerning GOD'S Promises to THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST are much more beautiful and different.

This is Bible Prophecy that hasn't been fulfilled yet, but it will be. These things will take place directly after the SECOND COMING OF CHRIST.

The people the promise applies to is Israel.

The dispensation is the KINGDOM - THE RULE AND REIGN OF CHRIST.

JESUS CHRIST is the Anointed KING of Israel, and HE will take HIS Throne.

Ezekiel 39:25-29 NASB
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name. "They will forget their disgrace and all their treachery which they perpetrated against Me, when they live securely on their own land with no one to make them afraid. "When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations. "Then they will know that I am the LORD their God because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them again to their own land; and I will leave none of them there any longer. "I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel," declares the Lord GOD.

[phillip]

I am a dispensationalist but not an ultradispensationalist.  II Timothy 2:15 says, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Dispensationalism taught by Clarence Larkin, Dr. John Walvoord, and Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost is biblically correct for it teaches the proper division of God's Word the way the Lord meant it to be!

[nChrist]

I am a dispensationalist but not an ultradispensationalist.  II Timothy 2:15 says, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Dispensationalism taught by Clarence Larkin, Dr. John Walvoord, and Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost is biblically correct for it teaches the proper division of God's Word the way the Lord meant it to be!

Good Morning Phillip,

I recognize some of those names, but I greatly prefer the dispensational teachings of the HOLY BIBLE. It's guaranteed that the best teaching is already in GOD'S WORD.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 1:18-23 NASB I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

[dan p]

I would like to address one point where you said that the body is grafted in. If I read that right , you are talking about Rom 11. The question you need to answer , is, are we as individuals , grafted into a tree or are we placed into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. That grafting is to happen during the Millennium and that is when this grafting happens.