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3wells
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« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2003, 01:56:16 PM »

Ok, but maybe there are issues besides TBN and what you think of Benny Hinn, etc. So:

1. Does that mean that all prophecies spoken after the book of Revelations was finished are false?

2. Does it mean that such prophecies add to the Word of God and that such prophecies would show that the Word of God is incomplete?
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« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2003, 02:22:42 PM »

How can it be complete,if it is not finished?
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« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2003, 05:34:29 PM »

"One Body - In this present dispensation of the grace of God there is only one church, which is called the body of Christ. It consists of all those who are saved and it had its beginning with the salvation of the Apostle Paul (Rom. 11:11; I Cor. 12:13, 27; Eph. 1:22-23, 3:1-11, 4:12; Col. 1:18, 24-25; I Tim.1:14-16)."

"there is only one church, which is called the body of Christ."  
"and it had its beginning with the salvation of the Apostle Paul"
There is no salvation of the Apostle Paul! Only Jesus Christ through God's grace.

Stirring up the pot again are you?

If your statement is true, which it is not according to the whole of the Bible,  then what people were added to what church such as should be saved in Acts 2:47?? By the way this started with Peter and the other eleven of the twelve.


Acts 2:47.  Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Are you saying there are two churches, two bodies of Christ?
One for Israel and one for the gentiles?

One body, One Spirit in Christ Jesus. Neither Jew nor Greek but one in Jesus Christ.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2003, 05:41:21 PM by ollie » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2003, 10:21:36 PM »

Quote
One body, One Spirit in Christ Jesus. Neither Jew nor Greek but one in Jesus Christ.
   On this Ollie I can agree with you.
    A4C, BL, I don't know when you place the start of this  dispensation, but from my study it started at pentecost.

ACTS 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
   There is, but one Church it is not of Paul or Peter, but of Christ.

 1 Corinthians 1
11   For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12   Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13   Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14   I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15   Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
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ROM 12:5 So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
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« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2003, 03:57:56 AM »


No Way Bro, still a lot of prophies still need to be fulfilled, that is the ones that are in the Word of God (The B-I-B-L-E) NOT the ones the clowns on T.V. and the Clones like them give.

Grace & Peace
Quote


Yo, 3wells, dont get your undies in a bundle. A4C and BL are your brothers in Christ,  show some respect.


The Holy Spirit gets alot of bad press. If you go to a "Holy Ghost meeting", the chances are the Holy Spirit is not going to be there. If you go to a Jesus meeting, the Holy Spirit will be there because the Holy Spirit does not draw attention to himself, but to Jesus.
Clowns and clones are putting it gently. They are wolves in sheeps clothing, false prophets and do not represent the gifts of the Spirit or the gospel in any way. Alot of crazy things are done in the name of the Holy Spirit, but to go to the extreme to say that all the gifts have ceased, cannot be shown in scripture.

You say that  the "perfection" in 1 Cor 13:10 refers to the completion of the Bible, and since we have the Bible today, the gifts have passed away.
The "perfection" in verse 10 refers to our perfection, not the completion of the Bible. The context itself clearly tells us this, as it talks about "we" and "I" knowing in part, then knowing fully, being a child, then growing into a man.

9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
11 When I was a child,...When I became a man,...
12 ...Now I know in part; then I shall know fully,...
If we say that the perfection refers to the completion of the Bible, then we are actually saying that the Bible  went through these human growth processes.

 The passage clearly talks about us (not scrolls of scriptures) knowing partially then knowing fully, and that when the latter happens, the gifts of the Holy Spirit (that help build up and empower the church) will no longer be necessary and hence be done away with.
v12 "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face."
Again, to say that the perfection refers to the completion of the Bible is to also say that the Bible once saw a "poor reflection" of itself in the mirror, then saw "face to face" with someone once it was completed. This, of course, is silly.

 We don't see the Lord "face to face" now. He is still at the  right hand of the Father, interceding for us, since His ascension. What we see is a "poor mirror reflection" of Him (1 Corinthians 13:12).

Because we are in Christ and Christ is in us by His Spirit, we reflect His image, though poorly, when we "look in a mirror".
Despite the dim reflection, the more we behold Jesus, that is, to learn more about Him, the more we are transformed from glory to glory into His likeness (2 Corinthians 3:18).

This transformation is still ongoing for every Christian, but it will be completed when we see Christ "face to face"  no longer as a poor reflection in a mirror (1 Corinthians 13:12).

 When Christ comes back for His church, we would be perfected, complete knowledge with glorified bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 3:16,17, 2 Thessalonians 1:1).


Do you cessationists know it all? Has "know fully" or "perfection" happened to every Christian as cessationists believe? No. Just because we have the Bible, functions of evangelism, pastoring (shepherding), and teaching  carried out by men who "labor in the word and doctrine" does not mean that we now know perfectly.
Some cessationists then argue that we should not take "know fully" in absolute terms. They say that "know fully" just means knowing God's salvation plan.

Well, the qualification is in verse 12 ; "even as I am fully known". We are fully known by one person only- God. So, have we come to the place where we know fully to the same degree and standard that we are fully known by God?





« Last Edit: December 13, 2003, 04:02:41 AM by EndTimeAction » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2003, 04:38:36 AM »

Quote
Yo, 3wells, dont get your undies in a bundle. A4C and BL are your brothers in Christ,  show some respect.

If we are all brothers in christ then why are you critisizing me alone?

Can you show me anywhere where these two have shown respect?

Is this your idea of respect:

"We should be like you and Benny Hinn"

"And maybe I will start up on own T.V. show on TBN I will call it The Goose-Bump Hour"

"Brother Love, I think 3 wells is Jim Jones, be careful, dont drink the Kool-Aid."

"3wells your in that seat, is it HOT?
Are you a Sunday School Teacher at the AOG?"

I'm not here to discuss Benny Hinn, TBN or AOG. There are already enough threads for people who want to spit on them. I am interested in discussing what scripture does and does not say. Is it impossible to do that without having the focus thrown off by people who want to suppress the truth?

Take a look at the thread "Spiritual Gifts" and read the last page (page 5). I carefully went though the arguments put forth by Sower and addressed them with scripture. They did their very best to sabotage that entire thread to get the focus off scripture and turn it into a sandpit.

I know I made some mistakes, and I regret giving way to their provocation, but if you look back at all that has been posted the past few days then you will see where it started, and that for the most part I have been trying to discuss the topic at hand. If someone asks me something then I try to always answer it in sincerity. Refusing to answer is disrespectful. They could at least have said that they don't know the answer, don't you think?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2003, 05:00:43 AM by 3wells » Logged
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« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2003, 01:24:59 PM »

One Hope - The imminent, personal return of the Lord Jesus Christ to catch up the members of His body to be with Him forever is the "blessed hope" of the believer (I Thes. 4:13-18; Titus 2:13). The body of Christ will not be on the earth during the time of Jacob's trouble, also known as the Tribulation (Rom 13:11; I Thes. 4:13-16, 5:1-11; II Thes. 2:1-17).

Grace & Peace
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« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2003, 01:26:48 PM »

One Lord - Jesus Christ was begotten by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He is true God and true man (Matt. 1:20-23; Rom. 1:3; Phil. 2:6-9). He suffered and died as the propitiation of God for sin (Rom. 3:25), and three days later He rose bodily from the dead. We no longer "know" Him through the accounts of His earthly ministry, but as the resurrected Head of the Church, which is His body (Rom. 15:8; II Cor. 5:16; Eph. 1:20-23).


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« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2003, 01:29:14 PM »

One Faith - The body of truth revealed to the Apostle Paul for us to believe, in this, the age of God's wonderful grace (Eph. 3:2; Col. 1:25). Sound doctrine for the age of grace was revealed to Paul. These sound words should be held onto by the saints and committed to faithful men who shall teach others also (II Tim. 1:13). In Gal. 1:11-12 and I Tim. 6:3, Paul states that his gospel was "by revelation of Jesus Christ" and that his words are the words of the Lord Jesus Christ (I Cor. 14:37). God's truth for living today is found in Paul's writings, Romans through Philemon. The book of Romans is the foundation to be built upon, progressively and successively, through to the book of Philemon, and this pattern of instruction works to produce godly edification in the life of each believer.

Grace & Peace

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« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2003, 01:30:44 PM »

One Baptism - The Bible teaches of many baptisms, however, there is only one baptism recognized by the Word of God for this present dispensation of grace. That is the spiritual baptism by which the believer, when he/she trusts Christ as his/her Saviour, is identified with the Lord in His death, His burial, and His resurrection. This spiritual baptism is also the means whereby the believer is given victory over sin (Rom. 6:1-5; I Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27; Col. 2:11).


Grace & Peace
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« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2003, 01:34:03 PM »

One God and Father of all - There is one God, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (I Kings 8:60; Isaiah 45:18; John 8:19; II Cor. 13:14).


Grace & Peace
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« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2003, 01:39:49 PM »

One Gospel - My Gospel Grin

The gospel of salvation from the penalty of sin - Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, as a representative and substitutionary sacrifice. All who believe on Him are justified on the basis of His shed blood (Rom. 3:24-28, 5:8-9). People today are saved by grace through faith alone, and at the moment of salvation are sealed by the Holy Spirit and are eternally secure (Eph. 1:11-14, 2:8-9).

The lost, the unsaved, will suffer eternal damnation as payment for their sins (Rom. 2:1-11, 6:23; Eph. 5:6; II Thes. 1:7-9; Rev. 20:11-15, 21:Cool.

Grace & Peace

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« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2003, 01:47:14 PM »

ONE Mission and Commission - My Commission and Mission Grin

The mission and commission of the church is to proclaim the message of reconciliation (II Cor. 5:14-21) and to preach Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery, as first revealed to the Apostle Paul (Rom. 16:25; Eph. 3:1-9; I Tim. 1:16).

Grace & Peace
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« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2003, 07:18:03 PM »

Quote
Yo, 3wells, dont get your undies in a bundle. A4C and BL are your brothers in Christ,  show some respect.

If we are all brothers in christ then why are you critisizing me alone?

Can you show me anywhere where these two have shown respect?

Is this your idea of respect:

"We should be like you and Benny Hinn"

"And maybe I will start up on own T.V. show on TBN I will call it The Goose-Bump Hour"

"Brother Love, I think 3 wells is Jim Jones, be careful, dont drink the Kool-Aid."

"3wells your in that seat, is it HOT?
Are you a Sunday School Teacher at the AOG?"

I'm not here to discuss Benny Hinn, TBN or AOG. There are already enough threads for people who want to spit on them. I am interested in discussing what scripture does and does not say. Is it impossible to do that without having the focus thrown off by people who want to suppress the truth?

Take a look at the thread "Spiritual Gifts" and read the last page (page 5). I carefully went though the arguments put forth by Sower and addressed them with scripture. They did their very best to sabotage that entire thread to get the focus off scripture and turn it into a sandpit.

I know I made some mistakes, and I regret giving way to their provocation, but if you look back at all that has been posted the past few days then you will see where it started, and that for the most part I have been trying to discuss the topic at hand. If someone asks me something then I try to always answer it in sincerity. Refusing to answer is disrespectful. They could at least have said that they don't know the answer, don't you think?

3wells
I wasn't critisizing you. What I mean by showing respect is debating without getting a hot head. I did just read "Spiritual Gifts". I can see why you would be offended by their comments. Maybe they were just responding to being told they were "tickling satans belly", but I do not understand why they would mock you.

Name calling and mocking is not proper for any servant of Christ. It is a responce of the flesh. It is sin.

Pro 24:9 The thought of foolishness [is] sin: and the scorner [is] an abomination to men.

Pro 22:10 Cast out the scorner, and contention shall go out; yea, strife and reproach shall cease.

Pro 19:25 Smite a scorner, and the simple will beware: and reprove one that hath understanding, [and] he will understand knowledge.

Thats what they did to Jesus;
Mat 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify [him]: and the third day he shall rise again.


Love in Christ  Smiley
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« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2003, 07:35:48 PM »

One Hope - The imminent, personal return of the Lord Jesus Christ to catch up the members of His body to be with Him forever is the "blessed hope" of the believer (I Thes. 4:13-18; Titus 2:13). The body of Christ will not be on the earth during the time of Jacob's trouble, also known as the Tribulation (Rom 13:11; I Thes. 4:13-16, 5:1-11; II Thes. 2:1-17).

Grace & Peace

One Lord - Jesus Christ was begotten by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He is true God and true man (Matt. 1:20-23; Rom. 1:3; Phil. 2:6-9). He suffered and died as the propitiation of God for sin (Rom. 3:25), and three days later He rose bodily from the dead. We no longer "know" Him through the accounts of His earthly ministry, but as the resurrected Head of the Church, which is His body (Rom. 15:8; II Cor. 5:16; Eph. 1:20-23).




One Faith - The body of truth revealed to the Apostle Paul for us to believe, in this, the age of God's wonderful grace (Eph. 3:2; Col. 1:25). Sound doctrine for the age of grace was revealed to Paul. These sound words should be held onto by the saints and committed to faithful men who shall teach others also (II Tim. 1:13). In Gal. 1:11-12 and I Tim. 6:3, Paul states that his gospel was "by revelation of Jesus Christ" and that his words are the words of the Lord Jesus Christ (I Cor. 14:37). God's truth for living today is found in Paul's writings, Romans through Philemon. The book of Romans is the foundation to be built upon, progressively and successively, through to the book of Philemon, and this pattern of instruction works to produce godly edification in the life of each believer.

Grace & Peace



One Baptism - The Bible teaches of many baptisms, however, there is only one baptism recognized by the Word of God for this present dispensation of grace. That is the spiritual baptism by which the believer, when he/she trusts Christ as his/her Saviour, is identified with the Lord in His death, His burial, and His resurrection. This spiritual baptism is also the means whereby the believer is given victory over sin (Rom. 6:1-5; I Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27; Col. 2:11).


Grace & Peace

One God and Father of all - There is one God, eternally existing in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (I Kings 8:60; Isaiah 45:18; John 8:19; II Cor. 13:14).


Grace & Peace

One Gospel - My Gospel Grin

The gospel of salvation from the penalty of sin - Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, as a representative and substitutionary sacrifice. All who believe on Him are justified on the basis of His shed blood (Rom. 3:24-28, 5:8-9). People today are saved by grace through faith alone, and at the moment of salvation are sealed by the Holy Spirit and are eternally secure (Eph. 1:11-14, 2:8-9).

The lost, the unsaved, will suffer eternal damnation as payment for their sins (Rom. 2:1-11, 6:23; Eph. 5:6; II Thes. 1:7-9; Rev. 20:11-15, 21:Cool.

Grace & Peace



ONE Mission and Commission - My Commission and Mission Grin

The mission and commission of the church is to proclaim the message of reconciliation (II Cor. 5:14-21) and to preach Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery, as first revealed to the Apostle Paul (Rom. 16:25; Eph. 3:1-9; I Tim. 1:16).

Grace & Peace

If you are trying to convince us that spiritual gifts have ceased, your going to have to be more convincing.
 Try being more specific.
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