Christmas

[Carla]

For the past year my husband and I have been doing some interesting studies on christmas.  It's interesting to look at the origins of all the things we do at christmas. For years we put up trees, hang lights and ornaments on it, put presents under the tree, stand a santa claus up next to our nativity scenes with lights all over the yard and so on and so forth. (Did ya know that Jesus no longer was in a manger when the wisemen arrived, he was probably closer to 2 years old, and we do not know how many wisemen there was, the bible only mentions the three types of gifts). -that would make the nativiity scene not accurate(or a lie)
So why do we do all these things?  Where did all these traditions originally begin? Are these customs truely showing honor to Jesus (Yeshua)?
It has been said alot of these customs have pagan origins and Dec. 25th could no way be the Messiah's birth date  but it was the birthdate of pagan sun gods. If this is all true how did the name of Jesus get connected with this pagan festivity? And if all of these customs have pagan origins, isn't it wrong for christians to worship the Messiah in this way?
Has anyone else done a study on this? After doing much studying I sure see things alot different.

Seeking the truth~~~~Carla

[Soldier4Christ]

Hi Carla,

Many religious festivities and symbols have been adopted by pagans for themselves, their festivities and beliefs and it is the same in the opposite. This in itself doesn't make them right nor does it make them wrong. They are traditions of men. It is what is in our hearts that makes the difference. Do we worship Jesus Christ in truth, from the love we have for Him in our hearts or do we worship Him in appearance only.

We were given the rainbow as a reminder of God's promise to mankind. It is now used to represent that which is an abomination to God. Do we forget the purpose for which God gave us the rainbow just because of this?

The cross is also a reminder of that which Jesus Christ did for us. Crosses themselves have no power but they are a wondrous reminder of the power and saving grace of God. Crosses are now also used for many various things by mankind. Should we forget what the cross represents?

God made all that is on the earth and it is good. He gave us all trees that are good to the sight. (Gen 1:29 and Gen 2:9 ) Should we worship these things as the pagans do? Definitely not. Those things have no power, it serves no purpose to worship or to pray to these things nor to hold them up above God. The only one worthy of worship is Jesus Christ, very God.

Can we use them to remind us of the wondrous things that God has done for us and His wondrous power? There is nothing wrong in doing so. We can also look around us daily at all that God has created and be reminded in just this same manner of God's wondrous power and His saving grace.



Col 2:6  As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
Col 2:7  Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Col 2:8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15  And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17  Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


Col 2:20  Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21  (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22  Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23  Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.





A tree created by and decorated by God.

[Carla]

This in itself doesn't make them right nor does it make them wrong.  They are traditions of men. It is what is in our hearts that makes the difference.

If what you say is true, Pastor, then this scripture has no meaning:

Deu 12:30  Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
Deu 12:31  Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

Yahweh himself said, "Thou shalt not do so (serve Him as the pagans serve their gods) unto Him.  In the very next verse He makes it quite clear that we are not to add to nor subtract from the commands that He gives us.

Deu 12:32  What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

I'm not so sure I understand the position that says we can do as we please, even if it is contrary to the command of the Almighty, as long as it is "in our hearts" to serve Him.  It seems to me that if we are truly serving Him, then we will serve Him as HE pleases, not as it pleases us. 

Can you please provide me some scripture supporting that position?

And, by your own admission you call many religious festivities and symbols "the traditions of men."  December 25 was the birthday of pagan sun gods long before it was allegedly the birthday of the Messiah (Mithra being one).

Mirtha was born on December 25, called “Birthday of the Unconquered Sun,” which was finally taken over by Christians in the 4th century A.D. as the birthday of Christ.  (See, John Holland Smith, The Death of Classical Paganism at 146; John Campbell, The Mythic Image at 33) 

http://mysite.verizon.net/resp7mpe/beliefs/id10.html

You quoted Colossians:

Col 2:8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Going again back to Deuteronomy 12: 30-31 and also looking at Colossians 2:8, I fail to see where we have the right to do as we please when Yahweh specifically forbids us doing that. 

I can only assume that you were including Colossians 2:16 to say that it is alright.

Col 2:16  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days

Paul was speaking to the Colossians here, which were Gentiles.  If they were Gentile followers of the teachings of Messiah, they would have now been honoring Yahweh's holy days and sabbath's as the Messiah did (being Gentiiles, they would not have done this before conversion).  In this verse Paul is telling them not to let unbelievers judge them for now following Yahweh's instruction of the Torah, which as true followers of the Messiah they would now be doing.  That is what Paul did and that is what he would have taught them.  They were Gentile converts living in a Gentile society now following a Jewish Messiah.  I am sure they would have been ridiculed by non-believers for now following a new teaching.  Paul was teaching them to walk in the steps of the Messiah as he was, and don't let the unbelievers judge you for what you are doing.

Even setting all that aside, this verse in no way gives up permission to disregard what the Creator says and do things our way. 

Again, can you please provide me scripture supporting the viewpoint that we are free to do our will and not Yahweh's.

Still seeking the truth~~~~Carla

[Soldier4Christ]

Never did I say that we are free to do our will and not that of our Lord and Saviour. Those are words that you are using and attempting to put on me.

Either you have misunderstood me or I did not make myself perfectly clear. Let me clarify just in case it was myself not making things clear (I do that sometimes by being to brief in my statements). Many Christians put other Christians down for celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ on Dec 25th. Should we not be celebrating Jesus everyday including Dec 25th? After all every day belongs to Him not just a select few. Or should we ignore Him that day because the pagans chose that day for their celebrations?

There are many arguments about which celebrations came first that have today become entwined together into one. The tree came from here ... the holly came from there .... the giving of gifts came somewhere else ...  Were not all things given to us by God?

Like wise there are many arguments that take place over when Christ was born. Some of those even have compelling "evidence" that Christ was born on Dec 25th. My point is what does it matter? It does not matter. We should give thanks to God daily celebrating the fact that Jesus Christ came to earth in the flesh, died on the cross and rose again the third day and He did this for us so that we may have eternal life. This is the message that we should be relaying to all.

Many people who work are given time off at Christmas. It is a sufficient amount of time that those that live far away can join with their families. It is a time that we can spend with them and to celebrate all that Christ has done for us.

Should we give any day over to the pagans as their day? Let us take the day of Christmas as well as all other days back to Christ in our lives. This is the message that is relayed to us in Col 2. In Paul's time there were those that were saying that you can't do this on this day but you have to do this on such and such day only.

Col 2:20  Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21  (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22  Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23  Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

[nChrist]

If what you say is true, Pastor, then this scripture has no meaning:

Yahweh himself said, "Thou shalt not do so (serve Him as the pagans serve their gods) unto Him.  In the very next verse He makes it quite clear that we are not to add to nor subtract from the commands that He gives us.

I'm not so sure I understand the position that says we can do as we please, even if it is contrary to the command of the Almighty, as long as it is "in our hearts" to serve Him.  It seems to me that if we are truly serving Him, then we will serve Him as HE pleases, not as it pleases us. 

Can you please provide me some scripture supporting that position?

And, by your own admission you call many religious festivities and symbols "the traditions of men."  December 25 was the birthday of pagan sun gods long before it was allegedly the birthday of the Messiah (Mithra being one).

http://mysite.verizon.net/resp7mpe/beliefs/id10.html

You quoted Colossians:

Going again back to Deuteronomy 12: 30-31 and also looking at Colossians 2:8, I fail to see where we have the right to do as we please when Yahweh specifically forbids us doing that. 

I can only assume that you were including Colossians 2:16 to say that it is alright.

Paul was speaking to the Colossians here, which were Gentiles.  If they were Gentile followers of the teachings of Messiah, they would have now been honoring Yahweh's holy days and sabbath's as the Messiah did (being Gentiiles, they would not have done this before conversion).  In this verse Paul is telling them not to let unbelievers judge them for now following Yahweh's instruction of the Torah, which as true followers of the Messiah they would now be doing.  That is what Paul did and that is what he would have taught them.  They were Gentile converts living in a Gentile society now following a Jewish Messiah.  I am sure they would have been ridiculed by non-believers for now following a new teaching.  Paul was teaching them to walk in the steps of the Messiah as he was, and don't let the unbelievers judge you for what you are doing.

Even setting all that aside, this verse in no way gives up permission to disregard what the Creator says and do things our way. 

Again, can you please provide me scripture supporting the viewpoint that we are free to do our will and not Yahweh's.

Still seeking the truth~~~~Carla

Hello Carla,

This is a meaningless issue for Christians who praise and worship The Living GOD and JESUS CHRIST on Christmas and every day. If you praise and worship pagan gods with a little "g" on any day, you need to research this and stop. JESUS CHRIST is the LORD of all days, and all days belong to HIM. I celebrate all days in HIS NAME, and all Christians should. I had a wonderful day in the LORD on Christmas, and I hope that you did also. In fact, the days before and after Christmas were pretty nice also, and pagans weren't invited.

If you are worshiping pagan gods on any day of the year, you need to research this and stop. My family doesn't worship pagan gods, so we don't have to research it or worry about it. Further, we didn't receive any pagan Christmas presents, but it was a great Christmas!

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

HIS NAME IS JESUS!

Luke 2:7-14  NASB  And she gave birth to her firstborn son; and she wrapped Him in cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn. In the same region there were some shepherds staying out in the fields and keeping watch over their flock by night. And an angel of the Lord suddenly stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them; and they were terribly frightened. But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. "This will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger." And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, "Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased."