Huckabee in GOP top tier

[Soldier4Christ]

I would have to question why any Christian would support a man like Fred Thompson. He is by far a much more liberal person than Huckabee. Check out Thompson's stance on many of the issues. Fred Thompson's own personal life is far from being a role model for Christians. His stance on the marriage amendment does not reflect a Christian stance,  his membership in the Council on Foreign Relations and support of a North American Union, he has also lied about his affiliation with a church having not attended  a church in many years, and their is much more that is not in accordance to a Christian stance. Who Fred Thompson is in front of a camera is not who he is when the camera is gone. He has a strong habit of telling the public what they want to hear but does not really mean it.

[carlotta]

I was going by the information in a Washington Post article by Robert Novak, which pointed out that a prominent Southern Baptist conservative from Texas,  Judge Paul Pressler, is backing Thompson. The article says that during 'the Baptist wars' in the 70s, Gov. Huckabee fought against the conservatives, including Judge Pressler.    This is all new to me, I am not from the South and was not a Christian in the 70s. I like Gov. Huckabee a lot, I hope he can gain the support of the GOP, but I rather think that Sen. McCain will be the candidate.

[Soldier4Christ]

I have seen the article by Robert Novak and I would say that it doesn't hold water. I would still have to say that Judge Paul Pressler reflects more liberalism in endorsing Thompson than Huckabee has in his entire career both as a pastor and a politician.

Robert Novak has his information wrong. The split in SBC was not over one being more liberal than the other although that was the charges that were being conveyed by Presslers group. The entire thing was about certain people gaining more power and those opposing them did not want that power over them but rather held to the idea that only Jesus could be the head of the church and only Jesus could determine proper doctrine. Pressler and his group wanted a creed established and the opposing group wanted strictly the word of God as their guide with no doctrinal man made creed.

All of the churches and organizations that Huckabee has been affiliated with are definitely conservative.

[carlotta]

Thanks for explaining that. Did the in-fighting in the SBC result in an actual split into 2 official groups, or was it resolved by one group winning?  Sorry about my ignorance, I attend a small independent fellowship so I don't know much about the large denominations.

Also, I read recently that Jimmy Carter had left one group of Baptists for another group which permits the ordination of women. Is that correct?

[Soldier4Christ]

The split caused an exodus from the SBC. Those that left the SBC joined another group. I can't remember off hand which one at this time.

That may or may not be true about Jimmy Carter. I do know that he is a very liberal person that has gone against much of what the Bible teaches us. The most prominent of those things in my mind at this moment is that he has taken a stance against Israel and is supporting the terrorists.

[Soldier4Christ]

Huckabee campaigning for 23% sales tax 
But also wants to abolish all federal income levies, payroll deductions

Political suicide? Quite the opposite for the GOP White House hopeful -- so far. But many call the plan for a national levy 'crackpot' (even if it would shut down the IRS).

Mike Huckabee, one of the most conservative Republicans in the 2008 presidential race, has embraced one of the most radical ideas on the campaign trail: a plan to abolish all federal income and payroll taxes and replace them with a single 23% national sales tax.

The idea -- dubbed the "fair tax" by proponents -- has been a political asset for Huckabee; its well-organized backers have helped catapult him from the back of the presidential pack to its top tier.

Sales tax proponents have tapped into seething voter hostility toward the Internal Revenue Service to become a below-the-radar political force, popping up at campaign events and candidate forums in Iowa and elsewhere.

The efforts on Huckabee's behalf by sales tax advocates helped spur his surprise second-place showing in an August Iowa straw poll -- the breakthrough that marked the beginning of his rise in the state and nationwide.

He is the only major presidential candidate to make the idea central to his campaign. "The first thing I'd love to do as president: Put a 'going out of business' sign on the Internal Revenue Service," he said at one debate.

Some wonder, however, whether his embrace of the plan eventually could turn into a liability.

The sales tax proposal has been around for years but languished on the fringes of practical politics and policy. Tax professionals generally regard the idea as impractical, regressive and even "crackpot," as one critic puts it.

It has gone nowhere in Congress. The 2005 Presidential Advisory Panel on Federal Tax Reform soundly rejected the idea. And many politicians shy away from it because it is easy for opponents to portray it as a huge tax increase -- as Democrats did in a 2006 Senate race in South Carolina.

The front-runner, Republican Jim DeMint, faced an unexpectedly stiff contest because of his support for a national sales tax. "DeMint wants an extra 23% on nearly everything -- gas, food, clothing," one Democratic ad said.

DeMint responded that his position was being misrepresented, but he still suffered a sharp decline in the polls. He won in the end, but what many thought would be a cakewalk for him turned into a cliffhanger.

Grover Norquist, a conservative activist who, as head of Americans for Tax Reform, pushed candidates to take a no-tax-hike pledge, said promoting a national sales tax in the presidential election would be "political poison."

Still, the proposal inspires grass-roots passion, in large part because it would replace or abolish the Internal Revenue Service, one of the most hated federal agencies and a symbol of intrusive government in some conservative circles.

Among the early advocates of a national sales tax were members of the Church of Scientology, a group that battled the IRS for years to gain recognition as a legitimate religious institution eligible for tax-exempt status. Church leaders backed the establishment of Citizens for an Alternative Tax System in 1990 to advance the cause of replacing the income tax with a national sales tax.

Eventually, the church won tax-exempt status and the group faded. But the issue was taken up by another group, Americans for Fair Taxation -- better known as Fairtax.org -- founded in 1995 by a group of Texas millionaires.

Proponents of a national sales tax say it would be an improvement over the current system because it would increase the incentive to save, by taxing money spent instead of money earned.

Also, the proposal would rid the tax code of its myriad loopholes and would free taxpayers and businesses from the time-consuming, often costly task of preparing annual tax returns.

"What we would do with the fair tax is to eliminate all the taxes on productivity, which means you could earn anything you want," Huckabee said. "You wouldn't be penalized for saving, earning, for having a capital gain, making an investment."

Huckabee and Fairtax.org call for a 23% tax on virtually all purchases in place of federal income taxes, as well as payroll taxes to fund Social Security and Medicare.

To ease the effect on the poor, they propose a "prebate" -- a monthly cash payment to every family -- to cover sales taxes on spending up to the federal poverty level.

Critics argue that this aspect of the plan would create an unwieldy new government program akin to welfare.

A report by the president's tax-reform panel said such a program could cost $600 billion a year -- "which would make it America's largest entitlement program," the report said.

Even with the subsidies to poor families, critics argue, the tax would primarily benefit the rich because they save the largest share of their income.

Independent analyses have concluded that the tax would have to be far higher than 23% to maintain the government at current levels -- especially if Congress did not eliminate popular tax breaks, such as the mortgage-interest deduction.

William G. Gale, a tax expert at the centrist Brookings Institution think tank, estimates that the levy could run as high as 50% -- a tax so steep that it would be an invitation to mass tax evasion.

"It's a crackpot plan," said Bruce Bartlett, a conservative economist and former Treasury Department official who is a leading critic of the sales tax. "Anyone who supports it should not be taken seriously."

Ken Hoagland, communications director for Fairtax.org, said critics had financial and professional interests in continuing the current tax code.

The group has spent about $2.5 million to mobilize supporters in early caucus and primary states, and plans to spend $1 million more in coming months.

As a nonprofit, it cannot endorse a candidate. But it lets people know where the candidates stand -- and that Huckabee is a particularly strong backer of the tax.

Thousands attended a May rally in South Carolina promoting the sales tax plan, just before the GOP candidates met for a debate there.

None of the then-leading candidates accepted the group's invitation to speak at the gathering. But Huckabee -- at that point still a dark horse in the race -- did speak and for the first time endorsed the group's plan.

"I have a dream that one day in this country . . . April 15 will just be another beautiful spring day," he told the cheering crowd.

A boost in Iowa

The group's biggest push was in Iowa leading up to the August straw poll. Fairtax.org advocates hit the talk-radio circuit. The group aired a radio ad featuring a jackalope -- a mythical animal -- with the tag line: "Real tax reform shouldn't be as mythical as a jackalope."

It sent stuffed jackalopes to every political reporter in Iowa. It hosted an open-bar reception at a major spring political dinner for Iowa Republicans. The group bought up all the tickets to a minor league baseball game and gave them to anyone who would listen to its tax pitch.

For the straw poll, Fairtax.org rented 10 buses and paid the $35 individual fee for 400 tickets to the event.

Huckabee placed second, behind former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, and garnered the first major coverage he had received in the campaign.

No one knows how many Fairtax.org voters backed Huckabee. But a Romney strategist said the group's effort clearly benefited the former Arkansas governor.

"They were engaged on the ground," said the strategist, who requested anonymity when discussing another campaign. "They were determined to play in this election."

Having depleted its resources in the straw-poll push, Fairtax .org scaled back its publicity efforts to recover financially.

"We went for broke, and almost got there," Hoagland said.

But the cause has been brought to the heart of the Huckabee campaign: David C. Polyansky, a former officer of Fairtax .org, has become a senior Huckabee campaign advisor.

For Huckabee, the proposal may prove a politically useful antidote to the intense criticism he has taken from his party's anti-tax wing for overseeing several tax increases as Arkansas governor.

The sales tax proposal, with its anti-Washington undertone, dovetails with the populist campaign themes he has crafted -- especially on economic issues.

"The average American is more afraid of an IRS audit than getting mugged," he frequently says.

[Brother Jerry]

I wish he would not bring up his ideas of fair tax and such while running....It could turn to a great killer.

He would do better stating that he is going to get rid of the complications that are in the tax code.  And he would do better if he said that in order to do anything with the tax system what first has to be done is identify and curb spending.  YEah others have said it too...but if can show some work already done on the investigation aspect of things....

Taxing the spending is crazy.  The government budgets it's spending annually.  We calculate sales revenues daily and report them monthly.  A bad day on Black Friday send the stock market down.  If we rely on Americans to spend money in order to make money and then turn right around and say we do not want to penalize you for saving money....well then how are we going to make money to operate?  If you want to make money off of what money people spend then you want them to spend more.  Because then you can either make more, or at best case reduce the rate of taxation.  If you drop the rate of taxation then they go out and spend more and save less.  And we get harder and harder to plan for what the government is going to make.

With a tax on income you can estimate that if we made 1 billion dollars this year, our population has not changed much over this next year and their jobs probably have not either...so you can easily project that you will have approximately the same amount coming in.

Just does not make good sense...and If I were Huck...I would keep my mouth shut on it.

[Soldier4Christ]

I'm arguing with you in the least bit on this. However I can see why Huckabee is doing this. His success in doing the same thing in Arkansas is why he is doing it. The state of Arkansas turned into the black for the first time in it's history because of this same tax change. The people of Arkansas also seem to have more spending money. Although it is still one of the highest unemployment rates of all states the unemployment rate is down and the overall economy "looks" much better.

Unfortunately all the job increases were government positions making it more of a big government state.

[Brother Jerry]

But he did not get rid of the state income tax.  He did do some reductions and such.  But it was and still is a state with an income tax.  The fair tax system that he is lending his support on is one that claims to eliminate the income tax altogether. 

So let us look at that aspect of things...I already did a flat tax fun thing a while back...let us take a look at quick numbers here.
Say there are 1,000,000 people in our sampling.  And let us pretend that everyone makes $50,000.
That puts them in the tax bracket of 15% by our current standards.
So each person is going to pay $7,500 per year simply.  This is $7,500,000,000 per year in tax revenue.

Now let us look at just doing things off of sales tax.
Same 1,000,000 people with each earning $50,000
Now the idea is that you are not going to tax everything.  but let us look at a couple of variables.  Let us say we will take a look at people who spend 25% of their income on taxable stuff, 50%, as well as 75%.

25%. Indicates that people spent $12,500 on taxable stuff.  In order to get that $12,500 to generate the revenue of the income tax then sales tax would have to be at 60%
50%. Indicates that people spent $25,000 on taxable stuff.  In order to get that $25,000 to generate the revenue of the income tax then sales tax would have to be at 30%
75%. Indicates that people spent $37,500 on taxable stuff.  In order to get that $37,500 to generate the revenue of the income tax then sales tax would have to be at 20%
Just for fun
90%. Indicates that people spent $45,000 on taxable stuff.  In order to get that $45,000 to generate the revenue of the income tax then sales tax would have to be at 16.66666% which generates $7,500 per person.  You figure they just spent $45,000 on goods and paid $7,500 for sales tax to the fed....and they just spent more than the earned.

Let us not forget that there is state, county, city sales taxes as well to pay. 
Now who here would want to go to the Dollar Tree and have to pay $1.50 for everything?  Not me...so I guess I would spend less...sure it would be good for me because I would not spend as much on frivolous stuff.  Only what I need.  And the kids would have terrible Christmas's because I know I would not have gone out and bought them that PSP if I had to pay $300 for it instead of $200.  Which less spending on the consumers part means less revenue for the gment...and the only way to get more revenue is to increase the sales tax revenue.  How do you do that?  You either increase the actual tax, or increase what you are actually taxing. 

Now let me also ask some common sense questions.  When you are making out your budget for the week, month, howmuchever, do you take into account gifts of money you may receive?  Of course not because you cannot account for how much you may get one time or another.  People can change their spending habits.  They do it all the time and that is why they keep track of that stuff so closely and why the market shifts dramatically at bad news.  And since we people can change our habits on spending why would you base your next paycheck on that?  (you being the President and your paycheck clearly dependant on the income of the gment).  People can go without the steak dinners and stick with canned ham if pushed too.  But they cannot go without jobs for the most part.  As expensive as it is to survive people will generally work.  Why tax something that may change verse that which does nto change?

[Soldier4Christ]

I left out a most important word in my last post. I meant to say "I'm not arguing with you in the least bit on this.

Yes, Huckabee was not successful in getting rid of the personal income tax. Another reason why many consider him to be in perfect line with the democrats on taxes (say one thing and do another). That and the fact the number of government jobs were increased during his term.

[Brother Jerry]

LOL...I do not think that I figured you were argueing with me

Still felt the need to expand upon the concept a little bit

[Faithin1]

This is a very long thread, so I didn't read all comments.  However, I read enough to conclude that most here are in support of Huckabee.   I find it extremely difficult to believe any of the candidates.  Most will say and do anything to garner votes.  Once in office, who knows?  I will say, there is something about Huckabee I simply do not trust.  The fact that he is a minister is irrelevant.  There are countless charlatans in the pulpit, and the Bible warns us of such.

[Brother Jerry]

I agree with you in that we will only be able to tell once in office.  And it has been noted that we hope that Huckabee is as genuine as he appears to be. 
I have expressed that there are issues of his that I do not agree with, mainly the tax issue.   And I know he does not have nearly as much foreign policy experience as others do.  But what I do find about him is an openness of character.  A willingness to speak what he feels. 

Is he perfect?  By no means.  But quite honestly on either side of the running right now I think he is a better person than the rest.  And as far as ability to run the country.  I think he could do it, would he be the best President ever?  only time would tell.

Our system was not designed to limit those who can be in office to elites, those with degrees, lawyers, former governors, life long politicians, etc...ANYONE can run for the office of President.  And in a pure system of our election process ANYONE could get elected.

[Soldier4Christ]

I think that most people in this thread have their reservations on this. We all have seen that situation where a person "seems" to be one thing and ends up being the opposite. All we can do is pray about this and do as we think is the right thing.

[Shammu]

Huckabee Defends Jesus as Point of Christmas
By
Michelle Vu
Christian Post Reporter
Tue, Dec. 25 2007 10:35 AM ET

Presidential candidate Mike Huckabee said Jesus Christ is the point of Christmas during a sermon in reference to his Christmas ad, which has come under fire for its frank religious tone.

“Sometimes in the middle of Christmas, Jesus is the one person who’s tough to find. You can find Santa at every mall. You can find discount in every store,” Huckabee said at the 25,000-stong Cornerstone Church in San Antonio on Sunday, according to Fox News. “But if you mention the name of Jesus, as I found out recently, it upsets the whole world. Forgive me, but I thought that was the point of the whole day.”

The former Arkansas governor began running a new ad last week in several of the primary states in which he wishes American voters of all faiths a “Merry Christmas.” In the ad, he references the birth of Christ as the Christmas carol “Silent Night” plays in the background and a cross-like image glows behind him, which he explains is just bookshelves.

“I got in a little trouble this last week because I actually had the audacity to say ‘Merry Christmas.’ Isn’t that an odd thing to say at this time of year,” Huckabee said during his 30-minute sermon to a nearly full 5,500-seat auditorium.

The former Arkansas governor was said to receive a 30 second standing ovation and copious applause for his refusal to apologize for referencing Jesus Christ in his Christmas ad, according to Fox News.

Huckabee has surged in state polls in Iowa and South Carolina riding on the support of evangelicals. He has made several stops at churches to deliver sermon while on the campaign trail, but Huckabee clarified that his speaking at Cornerstone was not about politics.

“I have to remind people there’s a time for political things and this is not one of them,” said the ordained Baptist preacher. “Trouble is when you’ve been a Baptist pastor and then you run for office, you become a political person. People get real nervous when you show up for church.”

He said people usually think about two things when they see a pastor and a politician, “you’re going to be here a long time” and that he is “going to ask for money,” Huckabee joked.

His sermon focused on the meaning of the Christmas story.

“The great truth of Christmas is that no matter how good we are, we’re not good enough to know God without the Christ,” Huckabee preached, according to The Associated Press. “And no matter how bad…we are not so bad that he cannot find us.”
“So while some people seem to want us to lose Jesus, I would like for us to do our best to find him,” Huckabee said at the megachurch founded by televangelist John Hagee.

Hagee is nationally known for his staunch support of Israel and is the founder of Christians United for Israel.

“One hundred years from now when all your worries are over, if your faith is in that child in Bethlehem born that day, and you’ve taken yourself off the throne and you’ve decided you’d rather be a shepherd than a Herod, then the good news for you is, when the game is over no matter what It looks like now, you win in the end. That is the message of Christmas so I say to you, Merry Christmas! Jesus is Lord!” Huckabee said.

The Republican presidential hopeful said he will return to his home in Arkansas for Christmas before hitting the campaign trail again ahead of the Jan. 3 Iowa caucuses.

Huckabee Defends Jesus as Point of Christmas