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Author Topic: The New Birth  (Read 2729 times)
Don
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« on: April 27, 2003, 02:07:06 PM »

 Smiley At the moment of salvation one (who is in faith believing) experiences the new birth (born again, born from above). The Holy Spirit is imparted to the Believer. At the moment of death, WHAT ascends immediately into the presence of God? A Spirit? Was THIS Spirit present within/created by the Holy Spirit? Was an old, sinful spirit replaced by a holy Spirit (not THE Holy Spirit). Support your answer with scripture, without arguing or debating WHEN or WHERE this entity (you, me, someone else, as a Christian) goes at the moment of death. I'm interested in WHAT departs.
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Sower
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« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2003, 05:28:25 PM »

Quote
At the moment of death, WHAT ascends immediately into the presence of God? A Spirit?
The believer is a tripartite being -- spirit, soul and body (1 Thessalonians 5:23). The material body "sleeps" in the grave (1 Thess. 4:13) while the soul and spirit -- "the real and immaterial you" -- ascend immediately to Christ (2 Cor. 5:1-8).

Quote
Was THIS Spirit present within/created by the Holy Spirit?
When we are born physically, our bodies and souls have life, but our spirits are "dead", because we are spiriitually dead (Eph. 2:1-5). When we are born again, our spirits are brought to life by the Holy Spirit (Jn. 3:1-8; Titus 3:4-7; Rom. 8:10).  It is at this point that you have spiritual life so that you can communicate with God and understand His Word (1 Cor. 2:11-16).  

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Was an old, sinful spirit replaced by a holy Spirit (not THE Holy Spirit).
No. "Quickened" means brought to life or resurrected.  Your dead spirit was made alive by the Holy Spirit the moment you were saved. The indwelling Holy Spirit is God.  Therefore God dwells within your spirit (1 Jn. 4:15-16), and you can never be separated from Him.  Since God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and since you received Christ, you also received the gift of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2: 38) ,and since Christ and the Father are One, the triune Godhead dwells within the believer.  That is an awesome thought, since "nothing shall be impossible for you".
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Petro
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« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2003, 01:08:46 AM »

Quote
 posted by Don
At the moment of salvation one (who is in faith believing) experiences the new birth (born again, born from above). The Holy Spirit is imparted to the Believer.
At the moment of death, WHAT ascends immediately into the presence of God?
A Spirit?

Greetings Don,

King Solomon, when speaking of death overtaking the aged man, says this, in;

Eccl 12; (speaking of the body, and the spirit;)
7  Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.  The entire passage actually begins at verse 1 and ends at verse 14.

The first Christian martyr, Steven, while being stoned  to death spoke the following words;   "............... calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."(Acts 7:59)

One can safely conclude, the spirit of all men, both the saved and the unsaved return to God, for disposition by God upon death.

Quote
Was THIS Spirit present within/created by the Holy Spirit?

It was created by the Word of God, when man was created and received the breath of life, he became a livng soul/spirit, at what point man receives a living soul today is debated among many scholars, I am not qualified to speak about it.

The book of Romans gives us a glimpse into the workings of the Holy Spirit;

Romans 8
9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
16  The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


 In Gen 2:7, God created man from the dust of the earth, and then breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. The word soul in some instances (this is one) is used to identify both the soul, and the spirit of man; it could easily be said "man became a living spirit" herein, and this also, would be true.

In Gen 1
26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: ...................
27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him;

Jesus said,
Jhn 4
24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

One,  then can conclude rightly so, that man was created a living spirit, since God is a spirit, this spirit, lives forever, (never dies);man is created in the image of God,  the Bible makes the statement the the natural man is is spiritually dead in sin and tresspass (Eph 2:1-5)



Quote
Was an old, sinful spirit replaced by a holy Spirit (not THE Holy Spirit).

When the scriptures speak of the spirit man being dead in sin and trespass, it speaks of it being dead to God, since God is the giver and taker of life, but in fact it is alive to and serves sin  in doing the will of the evil one, in obediance to the spirit (the god) of this world which now worketh in the children of disobedience (2 Cor 4:3)(Eph 2:2)

The Holy Spirit of God, is given to everyone who has been baptized with the Holy Spirit, by Jesus, He (the Holy Spirit) is our helper, comforter who teaches us and keeps us in the way, most importantly that thru Him, we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (1 Cor 2:12) and it gives us peace confirming that we are children of God. (Rom 8:15-16)

Trusting this will answer your question..

Blessings

Petro
« Last Edit: April 29, 2003, 01:22:43 AM by Petro » Logged

asaph
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« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2003, 04:17:21 AM »

Smiley At the moment of salvation one (who is in faith believing) experiences the new birth (born again, born from above). The Holy Spirit is imparted to the Believer. At the moment of death, WHAT ascends immediately into the presence of God? A Spirit? Was THIS Spirit present within/created by the Holy Spirit? Was an old, sinful spirit replaced by a holy Spirit (not THE Holy Spirit). Support your answer with scripture, without arguing or debating WHEN or WHERE this entity (you, me, someone else, as a Christian) goes at the moment of death. I'm interested in WHAT departs.
Hi Don,
There is a certain Mystery about our makeup. We know we have a body and that something animates it. That something, God calls spirit or breath.
Genesis 2
 7   And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The breath of life is breath that gives natural life. Not to be confused with spiritual life which is in the Son of God. He who has the Son has the Life (eternal Life). Life is in the Son, He is the eternal Life. In Him was Life and that Life is the light of men. The breath of life is not to be confused with the eternal Life.
A synonym of the breath of life is mans spirit. The spirit is what animates the body making a soul. The soul is the totality of the person. The body without the spirit is dead. The body without the breath of life is dead.
I do not believe that man is immortal yet. When I die my spirit returns to God who gave it, that is, my breath of life returns to God who gave it. My body returns to dust. I am no longer a soul, a being. I await resurrection, when mortality will be swallowed up of life (eternal life). Right now the Holy Spirit is a deposit from God to guarantee my resurrection to life. The unbeliever also awaits resurrection after he dies, but not the resurrection to life but to eternal destruction. If one wishes to debate this then I can bring forth scripture to back up what I am saying. Let me just say this concerning the most difficult verse, at least for me.
2 Cor 5
8   We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Paul had the Hope of Resurrection. This resurrection takes place at Christs coming. Paul knew that to die meant loss of consciousness therefore loss of any sense of time. So his next moment of consciousness would be in the presence of the Lord. This would seem like but a moment because there is no sense of time in death. It is in this way that I interpret this verse. Man is not immortal. Only God is immortal. Therefore when he dies he ceases to exist. He does not live on after death. However God will raise everyone and bring them to judgement. Some to everlasting life and others to shame and everlasting contempt. God calls death sleep because the first death is only temperary. The second death is forever. Blessed is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second resurrection results in eternal damnation.
You have to still love me if you want to go to heaven. Nener, nener, nener!  Grin

asaph
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Petro
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« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2003, 02:40:49 AM »


Here is an interesting verse, which is obviously speaking of man's soul (which is what the ancient Jews described as the heart or seat of the emotions of man) and his spirit, (which is believed to be what is dead to God and the things of God) which is witnessed to by Gods spirit, that he is a child of God, when saved.

Heb 4
12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So there seems to be a difference between soul and spirit, yet it is spoken of as if it is one in the same.

Now just to clarify a point made by asaph, which I agree with, is that although man was made a living soul, at the creation to live forever, however,

After they had sinned, it is clear they died spiritually, and where cast out of the garden, "lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:(Gen 3:22)

It was an act of mercy and grace that God, sent them out of the Garden, as they could have eaten of the fruit of the tree of life, and live forever, in their spiritually dead state.

Isn't this what happens to all who reject the free gift of God??

I have always wondered whether they ate of that fruit of the tree of Life at all?

Blessings,  Petro


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John the Baptist
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« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2003, 09:51:42 AM »

Hi, John here: (with some added emphasis)
So far the [posts] are interesting. Just a remark about the thoughts of a persons 'spirit' (breath) going back to God that gave it.
The remark or question is, does this spirit 'speak' after 'it' departs from me after I 'sleep'? Does it have any thinking power? Was it 'created' before I was? Why can't I remember 'eternity' if I am it? (part of that spirit)

And then another thought of the 'eternal spirit soul'? Eze. 18 states twice that the 'soul' that sinneth it shall die! verse 4 & 20 ibide.?

Personally for me. Gen. 2:7, is good enough for me. It says:
"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and BREATHED INTO HIS NOSTRILS the Breath of LIFE; [AND MAN *BECAME A LIVING SOUL]".  Smiley If one at death subtracts my breath? I am a D-E-A-D- soul.

Then, one more:
"For that which befalleth the [sons of men befalleth beasts;] as one dieth, so dieth the other; [*yea, THEY ALL HAVE *ONE BREATH; SO THAT MAN HATH *NO PREEMINENCE OVER A *BEAST;] for all is VAINITY. *ALL go into one place; all are DUST, and ALL TURN TO DUST AGAIN." So the beast has a living so too, huh? Huh

I full well know that it is time for 2 Thess. 2:9-12 to be seen in full bloom. And this subject will be the one that is to 'cement' its work. Rev. 16:13-14 will be a worldwide work that will climax in Christ's second Coming. (and no, most think that they are gone somewhere, before that, huh?) But, we will know soon enough!

Spiritualism? Deceive the very 'elect IF IT WERE POSSIBLE'?
Eve was 'curious'! How does one think that we, will act? Our dead ones speaking to us? And real miracles wrought by 'evil' workers, all in the name of a 'c'hrist, & religion.

If one was deathly sick, would they not flock to [anybody] that was 'really' working miracles?

Sure, I know also that NO one here has yet even hinted that the dead 'souls' will talk to us. But we will see, huh?

----John  
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Smiley At the moment of salvation one (who is in faith believing) experiences the new birth (born again, born from above). The Holy Spirit is imparted to the Believer. At the moment of death, WHAT ascends immediately into the presence of God? A Spirit? Was THIS Spirit present within/created by the Holy Spirit? Was an old, sinful spirit replaced by a holy Spirit (not THE Holy Spirit). Support your answer with scripture, without arguing or debating WHEN or WHERE this entity (you, me, someone else, as a Christian) goes at the moment of death. I'm interested in WHAT departs.
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brotherjim
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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2003, 03:25:51 PM »

Smiley At the moment of salvation one (who is in faith believing) experiences the new birth (born again, born from above). The Holy Spirit is imparted to the Believer. At the moment of death, WHAT ascends immediately into the presence of God? A Spirit? Was THIS Spirit present within/created by the Holy Spirit? Was an old, sinful spirit replaced by a holy Spirit (not THE Holy Spirit). Support your answer with scripture, without arguing or debating WHEN or WHERE this entity (you, me, someone else, as a Christian) goes at the moment of death. I'm interested in WHAT departs.
Hi Don,
There is a certain Mystery about our makeup. We know we have a body and that something animates it. That something, God calls spirit or breath.
Genesis 2
 7   And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The breath of life is breath that gives natural life. Not to be confused with spiritual life which is in the Son of God. He who has the Son has the Life (eternal Life). Life is in the Son, He is the eternal Life. In Him was Life and that Life is the light of men. The breath of life is not to be confused with the eternal Life.
A synonym of the breath of life is mans spirit. The spirit is what animates the body making a soul. The soul is the totality of the person. The body without the spirit is dead. The body without the breath of life is dead.
I do not believe that man is immortal yet. When I die my spirit returns to God who gave it, that is, my breath of life returns to God who gave it. My body returns to dust. I am no longer a soul, a being. I await resurrection, when mortality will be swallowed up of life (eternal life). Right now the Holy Spirit is a deposit from God to guarantee my resurrection to life. The unbeliever also awaits resurrection after he dies, but not the resurrection to life but to eternal destruction. If one wishes to debate this then I can bring forth scripture to back up what I am saying. Let me just say this concerning the most difficult verse, at least for me.
2 Cor 5
8   We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Paul had the Hope of Resurrection. This resurrection takes place at Christs coming. Paul knew that to die meant loss of consciousness therefore loss of any sense of time. So his next moment of consciousness would be in the presence of the Lord. This would seem like but a moment because there is no sense of time in death. It is in this way that I interpret this verse. Man is not immortal. Only God is immortal. Therefore when he dies he ceases to exist. He does not live on after death. However God will raise everyone and bring them to judgement. Some to everlasting life and others to shame and everlasting contempt. God calls death sleep because the first death is only temperary. The second death is forever. Blessed is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second resurrection results in eternal damnation.
You have to still love me if you want to go to heaven. Nener, nener, nener!  Grin

asaph


Dear asaph,

If you take a concordence and look up the references of "soul" in the New Testament, you will find many scriptures attesting to your theory that you are "no longer a soul" upon death is simply not true.

Many places in the Word the Lord allows us to peer into the place of the dead, and those held there are nearly always, if not always, termed "souls."

A concordence is avail free on-line at crosswalk.com under "Bible Resources."

In His Love for you, bro. jim
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