Homosexual marriages

[JudgeNot]

family-oriented

Someone has a strange idea of "family-oriented".  Possibly a 'tolerance demanding' liberal's idea of how we should think as opposed to how we do think?

Maybe someone's family - not mine.  

[onestarfisher]

I hate to belabour the point of t shirts, but after reading in various threads, I'm back on it. #1 We aren't going to convince the public that they are wrong. #2 We are to witness in public and preach the gospel (not necessarily singling out any particular sin) It is the foolishness of preaching that God uses (not a movie as a replacement, I might add). So we should be preaching (if you're called to that)

but just because they won't change because we tell them something is wrong doesn't mean we aren't supposed to keep telling them. I for one would just as soon hibernate in my house and read last days things and not go out into the fray. But when I do that, the Lord is unhappy with me. I don't really want to be out there in the misery, especially speaking. But I really believe it is wrong to be silent - about this or what ever other sins they are trying to cram down our throats. Homosexuality is yesterday's abortion. Issue wise. When abortion was first legalized, I think there were a lot more speaking out. We have to confront the issues, but I think it is more along the lines of John the Baptist or Jeremiah. They spoke out against sin. But John the Baptist also warned of the One Who is to come. It isn't enough for us to speak out against the issues - we have to have a reason, and that is to warn them of Who is to come.

So my point was twofold. We are supposed to preach and to warn. And also, even though we will never successfully squelch homosexuality, I think we need to raise up standared against it - and what better way to let them know how you feel than a t shirt? (or a hat, or a bumper sticker or...)

[Symphony]

Good point, JudgeNot.  

Amen, onestar.

We have to keep reminding when and where we can.  Actually, I'm looking forward to what I can do, when or where.

I think we want to be "helpful"--we have to help people up and out of their blindness, when and where we can.

[onestarfisher]

The Chink in the Armor......I was thinking the last few days that the gays have really shot themselves in the foot. What do I mean? There is all this talk now about the kids in school (even grammar school, I read) "exploring" their sexuality, trying it out both ways, to see if maybe they "are" gay...

So right there goes the homosexuals whole arguement. They have portrayed their sexual preference as something they were born with and tried to compare it to race - but this whole thing with the youth clearly ruins their whole premise. When was the last time you heard of an African American trying out his race to see if he was one? Or a caucasian the same? If you're born a certain way, you can't "try it out" to see for certain. It isn't something that's "discovered" Duh.

[Symphony]

Yes, there's all sorts of examples of the hypocrisy of it all--not to mention city mayors disobeying state laws.

I don't think the gays are going to acknowledge any of it; since theirs is not an argument, but a behavior.  They just want what they want, regardless.  Logic will increasingly have little to do with it.  This is what I mean by the "krystallnactch, 1938" thread here, seperately.

Increasingly opposition to them will be met with hysteria.  That's why apparently there will be little opposition--at least openly.  It very much like the Brownshirts of 1930s Germany.  They didn't have guns*, and didn't have legal authority(yet), but they could make things very difficult for you, if you didn't agree with them.  You were being watched; they set up neighborhood informants who'd been your friend,, neighbor or maybe even family, for years.  ANd, if you are landed, or have property, etc., any stand you make makes you all the more juicy--civil suits, etc.  Ultimately, of course, it will be criminal, not just civil, to say anything--"hate speech".

But really, that's why we need to be going down now, I think.  I don't want to be a survivor, like post-War Germany, hanging my head at why I didn't say something.(Some DID speak out; some ministers did--some 500, who either disappeared or learned to stifle it.  A student group, known as the White Rose, in Munich, painted graffiti, late at night, "Hitler is a Mass Murderer" around town, 1942.  The student leaders, a twenty two year old, and his 20-year old sister, and several others, were cornered at the University there, arrested.  They were tried and executed on the same day, by the "Hanging Judge of Berlin", as he was known.  Death by guillotine.  February, 1943.

I always remember that now, since I read about it in the Time-Life series on WWII(1983 or 4).  Or, at least, I hope I don't forget.

This is how we seem to be becoming.  You don't dare say anything.  And everybody knows it is wrong--just like everybody knew it was wrong to be exterminating people.  But no one there said anything.  Well, a few did.

Strange.  No one here today remembers any of that.  Or really cares about it.

And the funny thing about homosexuality, it's not really a "party", like the Nazis were--that is, an identifieable group, running for office, etc.  Homosexuals are everywhere, and they creep into your own family, and your own home.  And their argument is much more insidious, it seems.  Almost as if the Nazies, etc, 70 years ago, were a mere dress rehearsal.

And now they're getting wholesale endorsement, from upon high--from our government, and the corporate world, and even a "mainstream 'Christian'" church.

_______________


*Dale here has just cited an Encyclopeida article saying the Nazis had machine guns early, 1923...

[Reba]

How many of us who know this and abortion are against God’s Holy Word, hang around for pleasant talk with homosupporters and baby killers? I have seen it here at CU.

Is there a line? Do we have friends we just don’t bring up the subject with to avoid the unpleasantness. A lady very active in her church, She speaks at aglow meetings across the country. Vote for democrats, She is mom’s friend and mom wont challenge her on this point. I cop out and don’t because she is mom’s friend. This so called Christian lady votes for the death of children, and pro gay.  I have ‘sorta’ friends who are gay I feel I should do more then just make sure they know my stance on their lifestyle. But I bet I don’t ….

Where is line between the sinner and the sin?

[JudgeNot]

Is there a line? Do we have friends we just don’t bring up the subject with to avoid the unpleasantness. A lady very active in her church, She speaks at aglow meetings across the country. Vote for democrats, She is mom’s friend and mom wont challenge her on this point. I cop out and don’t because she is mom’s friend. This so called Christian lady votes for the death of children, and pro gay.  I have ‘sorta’ friends who are gay I feel I should do more then just make sure they know my stance on their lifestyle. But I bet I don’t ….

Reba –
I know the point of “love the sinner, hate the sin” has been clichéd.  But in the case you mention (as well as dozens of others we each run into everyday) – nothing else fits.  If I ignored everyone who voted liberal I would have little interaction with anyone for 14 hours a day.  I think it is important that:
1)  We know Jesus is our person Light
2)  We ACT as if we know Jesus as our person Light (reflect Him in our actions)
3)  Treat them as Jesus would treat them (our HARDEST task as Christians)
4)  When asked, WITNESS (and sometimes when we aren’t)!

If we are Christian, we are leaders – that is a fact we can not ignore.  Good leaders lead by example (as Christ did).  

(Reba – I know you’ve heard this millions of times before – and I know I’m ‘preaching to the choir’ – I just thought it needed to be said for the 20-millionth time.)  

If it is hard to be nice to someone – more often than not it means it is hard to love them.  We have been commanded to love everyone…

The line you speak of is there, and it is important we recognize it - but we will never, as you and I agree, change anyones mind by shoving a sign in their face with big block letters reading "You Are Going To HELL!"  
It won't work.

When you don't confront someone you aren't necessarily "copping out" - you probably aren't confronting them because the time isn't right?

[Symphony]

Well, certainly these are the questions those students there in The White Rose were confronting.  Interestingly, both of them, the brother and sister, had been active in their respective Hitler Youth.  They secretly conspired, with other youth, in various German cities.  They were made an example of.

Sure, as JudgeNot points out, there's a time, and a nontime, I suppose.

Diplomacy has a place.  Paul says we are to rebuke.  But he also asks that we be a sweet smelling aroma.

The total mix, of exactly how to do it, isn't cut and dried.  We still exist, here in U.S., anyway, with constitution guarantees.  We aren't a police state yet.  

That's why the shirt idea is making good sense to me.  It doesn't have to be vindictive, or malicious.  Indeed, we are to be a blessing to those around us.  Jesus reminds in John 3:17 He came not to condemn.

So when, and where, and how to do the shirt, etc., are part of the mix--at least for me.  Sure, sometimes you must abandon all caution, full steam ahead.  

But as we walk in the spirit, count nothing as our own, even our lives, then we will "know".  But it takes careful walking in His path, realizing who we are(or who we are not ).  In recognition of our own nothingness, I think is where we find our true answers, and his light shines through us, unhindered.

Regardless of whether the issue is homosexuality, or other vices, we still are to be salt to those around us.

Why didn't we put anti-abortion stuff on our shirts, then, before, or anti-divorce, etc?   Why not then?  Why now?

Perhaps it's just that certainly somewhere, at least where we certainly still have free speech, it is incumbent on us to draw the line--lest otherwise we be complicit!!??   Doesn't the free speech clause iimply complicity, if we remain silent, when we could have said something?

Well, for me, it certainly does.  Lord willing, I be able to say and do much.  Or, gradually, I am at least beginning to work on this.  Maybe it's just here that I would draw the line.  I have complained about the wholesale divorce, and abortion, in Letters to the Editor--which were published.  That didn't win me any friends.   But this gay thing seems to be where I need to get it onto something I'm actually wearing.  

[Reba]

I am most bothered by those who claim His name and disreguard His Word.


Yup Symp

[JudgeNot]

Symph & Reba & Crusader & Onestarfisher & Ebia & A4C and the rest at C-Unite:
Amen.

I wish we could meet after church, some Sunday afternoon, for ice cream and coffee.  We could have such a dynamic conversation as to change history.








Don't laugh:  The American revolution began with:
1) A guy who was good with words, (Thomas Pain)
2) A brewer/rebel rouser, (Sam Adams)
3) A silversmith/rebel rouser (Paul Revere)
4) A lawyer (choke) who didn’t want to get involved (John Adams).  
5) An oppressive government  

Thank you all for your points of view- they are indeed cherished and thought upon.  God bless us all, and God bless C-Unite.

JN

[onestarfisher]

The Chink in the Armor......I was thinking the last few days that the gays have really shot themselves in the foot. What do I mean? There is all this talk now about the kids in school (even grammar school, I read) "exploring" their sexuality, trying it out both ways, to see if maybe they "are" gay...

So right there goes the homosexuals whole arguement. They have portrayed their sexual preference as something they were born with and tried to compare it to race - but this whole thing with the youth clearly ruins their whole premise. When was the last time you heard of an African American trying out his race to see if he was one? Or a caucasian the same? If you're born a certain way, you can't "try it out" to see for certain. It isn't something that's "discovered" Duh.

Your analogy is a false one.

A slightly better analogy might be right or left handedness.  For the majority of people, you are either right handed or left handed - it's not a choice, and it's part of you from birth, but you don't know which you are until you try.

Actually, my analogy is not a false one. It is the analogy that the homosexuals are using to try and legalize abberation

[onestarfisher]

Symphony, you could go wear your shirt in a big city somewhere to try it out before you wore it in your hometown.....

About all of this - I read another board where they are quick to say (not about me, because I haven't said anything), Oh, you can't condemn anybody (but Jn 3:18 I think says you are condemned already if you don't believe); or they say, sinners already know they are in sin. (do they? why are they flaunting it?) Or, don't confront sinners with sin. I totally agree with Judge Not that you don't shove a sign in their face that says they're going to hell.....but what about preaching a strong message? Jonathan Edwards had a lot to say in his famous sermon......I don't think you can be loving enough to attract everyone to Christ - the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are real "loving" too....to be sure, we are to BE loving, etc, but I don't think we are to rely on that alone.

What I'm thinking right now is there is 1) preaching - where you preach about sin and hell and Jesus and forgiveness. That is where you condemn homosexuality, abortion, fornication, etc. 2) and there is talking to someone one on one, which is different.

the t shirts I think are more along the lines of preaching - although I've gotten into a couple of conversations one on one as a result....I'm thinking about Moses, when he came down with the ten commandments - the people had corrupted themselves. He came down with commandments that showed them their sin. Just thinking, more later maybe.

[onestarfisher]

I had another idea, but this is really far-fetched. Remember hearing about "flash mobs?" Where hundreds or thousands suddenly show up somewhere and then disperse right away?

What about a christian flash "mob?" Like, in a public place where they won't allow a nativity, or the steps of a courthouse where gay marriages are being performed, or walking past an abortion clinic, or anywhere, really, a mall or sidewalk - everyone with Homosexuality is a Sin t shirts on.....it's probably outlandish to consider. Or, a shirt that says , Repent, Jesus is coming soon.....who knows.

[Symphony]

Yep, comparing homosexual behaviour to what something a person is born with--like skin color--is the height of arrogance, prevarication and wholesale insult.

Homosexual "lifestyle"(how's that?--more like "death style") is no less a deliberate and willing choice, than having sex with animals is--unless now we are saying that too is unavoidable.

If indeed any heinous and debauched human behaviour is no longer unavoidable, then why have any "laws" at all.  We can't help our selves, so laws make no difference.

If laws make no difference, then we are members of the animal kingdom--a wolf will always be born a wolf; a dog will always be born a dog, and only does what his nature dictates.  He can't help it.  Animals know no law.

Hmm.  'Seems I've heard this somewhere before.  Let's see, wasn't someone named, um, ..."Darwin" was it.  Hmm, let's see, we're all just animals.

We can't help ourselves.  "Sorry, Officer, I was born that way.  Go arrest someone else."

   

[JudgeNot]

If one is born sexually attracted to people of the same sex, then the choice one is left with appears to be sin or celebacy.

Celibacy is underrated.  It should be “advertised” as a viable option for people of any “persuasion”.  
Recovering alcoholics practice “celibacy” from alcohol.
Recovering junkies practice “celibacy” from heroin.
Recovering sex addicts can enjoy the same non-practice.

Homosexuality is an “addiction” to a certain practice that is sinful and unhealthy (STDs & AIDS are diseases of behavior).  

Jesus can deliver us from sinful lifestyles, if we want Him to.