are we being taken for a ride?

[ravenloche]

Greetings brothers and sisters in Jesus:

I am a maintenance man at an apartment complex in the mid west. We have
over half of our apartments filled by people from New Orleans. My question is:

When does a helping hand, given in Christian love, become something that
is being abused?

Many of the people from New Orleans are doing their best to rebuild their lives,
and I applaud them openly. Unfortunately there are others who feel that
the rest of us in this country owe them a living. I see them doing nothing to
help themselves, or their families. They are complaining that f.e.m.a.,and
other gov. agencies are withdrawing their aid, and generally expecting others
to provide their every desire.

As a christian, I have no problem helping those in need, but when that help
is openly abused there has to be a stopping point.

There have been times in my own life that I have needed help from others,
but I never expected the people who helped to keep on giving while I sat
around moaning "oh what a hard time I've had"
Job had a hard time too, but he knew where to look, and where to turn to.


I am willing to  gladly help anyone who will work to help themself, but I am
not the local charity. Paul wrote and said that a man who would not work,should
not eat! He also said that a man who didn't provide for his family was worse
than an infidel.

Forgive me if I seem to be ranting, maybe I am, I would like to hear what you
have to say on this topic.

respectfully yours in Yeshua

ravenloche

[Soldier4Christ]

I do understand your having a reason for ranting. I have been in a position a number of times where I needed help. I never expected a free handout though. Just asked for a hand up. There is a big difference and I really appreciated the help that came to me. Several times help came to my door without my asking anyone except for the Lord. One of those was a lady that I barely knew and hadn't seen for several months. She showed up at my door with 2 very large boxes of groceries. I was also in need of an alternator for my car so I could go out looking for work. She just happened to have a spare one in her trunk that fit my car and gave that to me. She also knew of a man that needed a maintenance man and couldn't find anyone. I was at work for him the very next day. I am sure that she was an answer to my prayers.

I have also been in the position of being able to help others. Some that just kept coming back with their hands out without doing anything to help themselves. If there is no effort on their part to do anything at all then it is time to cut them off. One such person had a job given to them several times but they refused to even show up the first day just because it was work they didn't want to do. They felt the job was beneath them. Yet the very next day they came to me begging for more handouts. I had to turn them away as I felt there were others more deserving and needing of the help.


FEMA may have had some problems in proper handling of the money given out but they are correct in cutting people off after a given time.

[Brother Jerry]

Amen on both accounts.

It is truly sad that such a tragedy actually ends up creating more government leeches. 

[Maryjane]

it is sad...felons were bused to Texas...and became Texas problem....People of Texas standing in line to receive money when they did not live in New Orleans...FEMA money spent on anything but to start again...A woman bought 2,000.00 worth of shoes and was expected to be helped by agencies...If there was a national disaster...there would not be rich or poor...only survivors....and many of the survivors who take advantage of the weak...There is no way one could tell who needs help and who does not...but we can sure tell who needs the Lord...The days will not get better...and it is certainly not possessions that will matter...We have much to do for this world is dying...

[Jon-Marc]

I bought a F.E.M.A  RV that has been used temporarily by hurricane victims. It's a 2005, and I bought it in late 2005. I thought I was getting a good deal until after I lived in it for a while. They did a lot of minor damage throughout the RV and left the furniture and tile floor filthy. I don't think they ever mopped the floor. It wasn't their RV so why should they care? As was stated, too many people expect a hand out and don't care to help themselves. They have no respect for other people's property.

[Maryjane]

"But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive."  Gen. 50:20..

God is always in control...not matter how we see this world..we cannot see it through God's eyes for His ways are not our ways...His love and mercy..His compassion is great even when this world takes advantage...those who come to know the Lord who have sinned...all heaven rejoices when one comes to the Lord...

[Faithin1]

As a Christian, I believe in helping others who are in need.  My mother taught me from an early age to give to others.  She always told me that a closed hand could neither give nor receive, and I never forgot that.  Whenever I have been in need, the Lord always brought help to me in one form or another.  However, I totally agree, there has to be a limit.  People have to be willing to help themselves.

I have a relative who has leeched off of his parents for the majority of his life.  He does absolutely nothing, and is content to live the life of a parasite.  I can appreciate parents wanting to help their child, but he is a grown man of 47 and should be supporting himself.  If anything, he should be helping them. 

Ravenloche, you are absolutely right.  The Bible clearly tells us it is not good to be slothful.

Prv 19:24
A slothful man hideth his hand in his bosom, and will not so much as bring it to his mouth again.

2Thes 3:8-10
Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

[ravenloche]

Greetings my fellow C.U. family:

I am sorry if I appeared to be ranting, I guess I just wanted to let off a little
steam.  I firmly believe that we are to help those around us that are in need.
And there I think is where the clarification needs to be made.
I have begun to understand what has caused the Salvation Army, and other
such organizations to have sooooooooo much paperwork, and requirement
in the last few years.

Jesus told us that we would always have the poor with us, but there is a big
difference with poverty and sloth.Given the right circumstances anyone
can find themselves temporarily in need of help; it is those who choose to
remain there that step beyond the place of poverty, and into the position of
slothfulness.

I think the best way I can express what I am trying to say is:
I will give a hand UP to anyone, but I will give a hand OUT to noone

yours in Yeshua

Ravenloche

[nChrist]

Hello Ravenlocke,

Brother, this issue has many aspects, and my feelings are the same as everyone else here. However, I thought about the opposite side of the coin that I think about frequently. I'm talking about promises not kept to Veterans who have given so much to all of us and this country.

I have numerous friends from the Vietnam era who had all kinds of NEEDS that we promised would be taken care of. Many of those friends are still waiting for needed care and attention. As an individual, I feel shame that our government didn't keep promises made to our Veterans. My first thoughts would involve health care for wounds and illnesses that were definitely caused by war. My second thought involves serious emotional and mental illnesses caused by war that were just ignored.

I mentioned this issue because it represents the opposite of this issue - people who earned and were promised care that was never provided. My home is Lawton Fort Sill, so this is a big and important issue. We fought for years to get a Veterans' Center here, and we finally got it. It's beautiful and full, and it's what they deserved many years ago. Before the center opened, many of the Veterans had to travel many miles to stand in line for inadequate out-patient services. Many didn't live long enough to get what they were promised, and I can tell you there was a lot of suffering involved. There is no way to compare these deserving people to those abusing the system in New Orleans. I know there are many from New Orleans who didn't cheat anyone, so please don't think that I'm trying to lump all the folks from New Orleans into the same group.

I simply wanted to mention this because it was on my heart. I feel horrible about all of the broken promises to our Veterans. In fact, these broken promises make me angry.

I am aware of at least 2 billion dollars of con games, fraud, and other criminal activity directly tied to New Orleans. The actual amount of abuse and crime would probably be three times this much. I must add that a lot of this money came from Christians who really didn't have the money to give, but they gave it anyway. This should not be a message to stop giving, rather a message of being more careful in how we give to make sure it doesn't end up in the pockets of criminals.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Matthew 22:36-40  NASB  "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen brother Tom! I think the words that Ravenlocke used that separates the Veterans that are still in need of help from those people that are as he said slothful are  "those who choose to remain" as such. There are those that do not choose to be in poverty, they do not choose to be handicapped and a burden on others. Yes, many of these Veterans chose to serve. It does not mean that they choose to be a burden to others. In fact the majority of them would have it the opposite ... to still be serving others and some of them, even with major handicaps and struggling with their own survival, still do just that.

Yes, we all need to be aware of this and to do what we can to help those that need continual assistance. There are many that fit into that category, not just the injured, war torn Veterans.

[nChrist]

Hello Pastor Roger,

Brother, I realize now that my post wasn't even on topic for this thread, but this was on my heart when I read the thread. My thoughts really involved a stark contrast of almost direct opposites. I was really thinking about how abuse and fraud by some removed resources that others really needed.

It also seems to me that those who need help the worst in many situations don't yell very loud. AND, the biggest contrast in my thoughts involved earned and promised care versus help that was simply given out of the goodness of many peoples' hearts.

I should have put my post in a different thread and not confused the issues of this thread. After all, there is continuing abuse and fraud by some folks tied to New Orleans. I have no doubt that some of the ones I'm thinking about now will milk everything they can get until the spigots are turned off.

[Soldier4Christ]

Actually I think that your post ties into this subject quite well. As you said there is fraud, in the government as well as in those getting from the government and this is preventing those that earnestly earned or need that assistance. This pertains to charitable organizations as well as government agencies. It is a shame that people will do all they can to get assistance from others when they have neither earned it or need it.

[ravenloche]

Actually I think that your post ties into this subject quite well. As you said there is fraud, in the government as well as in those getting from the government and this is preventing those that earnestly earned or need that assistance. This pertains to charitable organizations as well as government agencies. It is a shame that people will do all they can to get assistance from others when they have neither earned it or need it.

Amen Pastor Roger, and amen Tom;

As a veteran I whole heartedly agree with you, and thank you for your input

Yours in Yeshua

Ravenloche

[Soldier4Christ]

I often hear those who have a good job, a bit of money and maybe a fine house to live in or can afford a nice apartment pointing fingers at those who are less fortunate.

I think I was a little hurt by Pastor Rogers seemly uncaring remarks.

I am sorry that the truth offends you. You are making judgment calls that you are not in the position to make. As I have said I have been in the position to be in need of help. I was in a position where I could not find a job and finally got one at a car wash working 4 hrs a day for 7 days a week. A person with both the training and job experience for a very large 6 figure income pushing a broom and emptying out slime pits. I did what was necessary to support my family.

Later I suffered with a heart condition that put me out of work and made me unemployable. My wife and I had to sleep in a car for three months. At a later time I had to spend two whole years with no income because of heart surgery while trying to raise 3 children. I also suffer from Gulf War Illness that ended my Navy career before it's time and the government refuses to properly recognize or do anything about it. I currently live in government subsidized housing that is in WWII era buildings that is substantially too small for a person that is in a wheelchair.

I also have a daughter that is educationally handicapped and cannot get a job.

I do realize that there are times of need and these are those that I spoke of being deserving of help. Those that I spoke of on the opposite side of the coin are those that are physically and mentally fit and do not even try to find a job!

I still praise God for all that He has done for me and you should also. At least you had some friends that were willing to give you a place to live. There are many that do not get that sort of thing and must sleep in a car or under a viaduct. The Lord does provide and we should praise Him daily for whatever we may get even when like Job we are down, lost everything and suffering greatly. We should also get back up and do what we can to continue on.

[nChrist]

Hello Amisk,

I do think that you misunderstood the issues being talked about in this thread. None of it was about people trying to help themselves and still needing help. It was about some people in New Orleans who abused help and some even committing fraud and other criminal acts in their abuse of people trying to help them. I would go so far as to say that most or all of the people discussing this issue were providing help out of their own limited resources and the goodness of their hearts. So, there isn't any harsh judgment called for here.

Love In Christ,
Tom