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Debp
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« on: July 13, 2007, 08:08:03 PM »

I especially liked the People, not Projects part of this article.


Written by Tobin Perry and Beth Clayton
This article is courtesy of Christian Single magazine.

Volunteers don’t have to fly around the world to give of their time to help others. Just ask Mark Wireman, who uses his computer skills for a nonprofit organization that offers legal support for other nonprofits.

Every Christian a Minister: Finding Joy and Fulfillment in Serving God

“Life is too short, and before you know it, you will say, ‘I should have done that,’” Wireman wrote on netaid.org, a Web site focused on inspiring people to fight global poverty.

Single adults are serving in a variety of settings. They’re serving in soup kitchens, building houses for families, and caring for orphans of AIDS victims in developing nations. In fact, entire organizations are popping up in cities as a way for singles to get to know one another outside the bar scene.

Suddenly, serving has become cool. And why not? It feels good to do good. But how does service become more than an occasional project pick-me-up?

Beyond the hip-factor, servanthood is a lifestyle of allowing God to shape our character into the likeness of Jesus. Serving isn’t something we do every once in a while to check off our list. It’s the way we’re called to live.

A Reason to Serve
When Jesus said that He didn’t come to “be served, but to serve, and to give His life – a ransom for many,” He wasn’t just explaining His mission; He was showing us how to live (Matthew 20:28).

After His resurrection, Jesus asked Peter three times, “Do you love Me?” (John 21:15-17). Each time Peter answered yes, and each time Jesus responded with something like, “Great. Then take care of my sheep.” His point? Following Jesus means serving others. Later, the Apostle Paul added, “Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant” (Philippians 2:5-7, NIV).

Of course, that sounds wonderful in theory, but the problem is, we’re pretty selfish people. In “Blue Like Jazz,” Donald Miller puts it this way: “I talk about love, forgiveness, social justice; I rage against American materialism in the name of altruism, but have I even controlled my own heart? The overwhelming majority of time I spend thinking about myself, pleasing myself, reassuring myself, and when I am done there is nothing to spare for the needy. Six billion people live in this world, and I can only muster thoughts for one. Me.”

So maybe the first step toward true servanthood is getting over ourselves. That means no matter how great a thing we do, the focus isn’t being noticed. “It’s not a self-righteous serving. It’s not about choosing, out of the goodness of our hearts, to do periodic acts of service. It’s about choosing to be a servant,” writes Richard Foster in “Celebration of Discipline.”

People, Not Projects
True service also comes with no strings attached. “It is when the church gives itself away in radical acts of service and compassion, expecting nothing in return, that the way of Jesus is most vividly put on display,” writes Rob Bell, pastor and author of “Velvet Elvis.” “Oftentimes the Christian community has sent the message that we love people and build relationships in order to convert them to the Christian faith. So there is an agenda. And when there is an agenda, it isn’t really love, is it? It’s something else. We have to rediscover love, period. Love that loves because it is what Jesus teaches us to do.”


When Lauren Lee was in graduate school in New Orleans, she worked with kids in a nearby housing project area. She was concerned about poverty, but she also grew to love the children. So when she moved to the Nashville area, she decided to invest in the life of a young girl through the Big Brothers Big Sisters program. She’s been hanging out for about two years with 12-year-old Deidre.

For Lee, loving Deidre is as simple as spending time with her – every Thursday evening. They’ve done everything from roller skating to attending the symphony to cooking together to getting their nails done. But their favorite thing is going to Borders just to sit and have coffee and read books together.

And they talk. A lot. They talk about what’s going on at school and at home, what Deidre wants to do in the future, and tough stuff like when Deidre’s 13-year-old friend got pregnant. “We all have the same basic needs, so we connect on those basic levels,” Lee explains.

Lee sees her role as mentoring someone younger than she is, pouring her life into someone else’s – something she says we’re all called to do. “I told her I’d stick with her until she didn’t want me anymore,” Lee says. Then she adds, “But I’m rethinking that. I think I’ll be in her life even when she doesn’t want me.” Because that’s what sisters do.

A Messy Business
Serving others isn’t supposed to be easy, and that may not be something you’ve heard before. “Most of the messages we receive are about how to make life easier,” Bell explains. “The call of Jesus goes the other direction; it’s about making our lives more difficult. It is going out of our way to be more generous and disciplined and loving and free. It is refusing to escape and become numb to and check out of this broken, fractured world.”

To get to the real stuff – the life-changing stuff – of servanthood means going beyond hit-and-run service projects. It means investing on an ongoing basis in relationships with real people who live real lives.
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« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2007, 08:38:45 PM »

AMEN! I think that the article says it all.

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« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2007, 04:06:16 PM »

Without apology,I have to disagree with much of what this article says.

Firstly, Perhaps we should take with a grain of salt anything that Rob Bell with his worldly wisdom has to say.  This is the same guy that says that Heaven and Hell are not literal places but places that can be achieved here on earth.  You will find this and much more of Bell's heresy in chapter 1  of his book SexG-d  called "God wears lipstick".  To say that we need to just love without the agenda of converting people is a lie from the pit of hell. (Of course , If Bell is correct, there is no such place).   Jesus had an agenda... Period.  It was to seek and save the lost.  He didn't just hang out at Starbuck's with Rob Bell and his emergent Mars Hill followers "loving people".  He also didn't hang out with tax collectors and sinners in order to affirm their lifestyles.  He did so to confront their lifestyles with His truth and love.  The doctor coming to the sick of the world.

Jesus was very deliberate about doing the will of His Heavenly Father.  The MOST LOVING thing that I can do is to give someone the truth even if it costs me friends, family, or the acceptance of the crowd.  I love people enough to want to see them converted.  (Just like it will cost me the acceptance of nearly everyone on this board by speaking against something).   I'd rather have the crowd against me and God for me than have God against me and the crowd for me.   The crowd won't be there when I appear before the judgement seat of Christ.

Everywhere we go in this country, all we hear about is "relationship evangelism".   Basically, what it equates to is trying to remain in the good graces of the world while trying to one day slip Jesus into a conversation so subtly that it won't cost us anything.   In other words Paul's words to Timothy that "everyone who desires to live Godly in Christ Jesus WILL BE PERSECUTED" don't apply to us I guess.  He wasn't giving Timothy some evangelism method that wouldn't cost Timothy anything.  Jesus said blessed are you when men hate you and revile you for my name's sake.  The world hated Jeremiah, they hated Noah, they hated Jesus whenever He opened His mouth.  They tried to have Him killed 10 times before He went to the Cross.  Jesus, who was the greatest (and most loving) preacher that has ever set foot on this earth, Preached repentance of sin.  He didn't take six months befriending the woman at the well  before he identified her lifestyle of adultery.  He didn't befriend the rich young ruler before He told him to sell everything he had.  He didn't befriend the thousands who He fed the bread and fish to.  He preached to them and said "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you are not worthy to be my disciple".  Guess what....they all left.  He even asked His disciples if they would leave too.  Ever wonder why the world confused Jesus with Elijah, John the Baptist, or one of the prophets? Because Jesus was a fiery preacher of repentance just like them.  They would have never confused Jesus with Rob Bell or Donald Miller promoting the "just live it" message.
 Jesus said "Count the Cost".  We need some people who are willing to lose everything for the sole purpose of seeing people saved for God's Glory.  It's is absolutely OK to have an agenda.  That is not an evil thing.  Jesus laid out our agenda in the Great Commission because the gospel of Jesus Christ is the only message a person will ever hear that will matter in eternity.  And make no mistake, they need to HEAR the gospel.  Faith comes by HEARING, and hearing by the Word of God.  And also, knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men.  People need to know how angry God is with the wicked (Ps. 7:11).  Going fishing doesn't involve taking your boat into the middle of a pond and waiting for the fish to jump into the boat.  Jesus said "Come follow me and I will make you fishers of men".  We need to stop waiting for them to jump into the boat and Go out and catch them for the Glory of God.  Stop trying to see what you can get away with in the name of evangelism and open your mouth.  Unless you are ashamed.  If you are you need to examine yourself and see if you are in the faith (2 Cor 13:5).

In no way do I write these things seeking your approval. Only to plead with you to examine the Scriptures like the Bereans is Acts 17...Please.  Reject me and the things that I say if you will, but please examine yourself and the things you write in light of God's Word and see if they line up...  Don't just accept the things that Donald Miller and Rob Bell say as  truth no matter how clever and wonderful they may sound.  It doesn't take a Biblical scholar to see that these guys are not in line with the Scripture.   



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« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2007, 05:01:03 PM »

I knew nothing about Rob Bell or his teachings until you said something here and investigated his teachings directly by his own writings. I will agree that many of his teachings are not Biblical and what we should be concerned about is what the Bible teaches us as being correct.

However I will also agree that we are to love our enemies irregardless if they accept Christ or not as it is not our place to determine what is in their hearts. This love is our foremost commandment. Yes, wanting to see them saved is a large part of this love. After all it would not be love if we were not concerned with the salvation of others. We are not told though to stop loving them if they reject Him. Coming out from among them and being separate from them does not mean to stop loving them.

Mat 22:36  Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38  This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

I would not want to see others suffer in hell any more than I would want to be there myself. This is indeed loving our neighbor as we would love ourselves. Something that we need to keep in mind though is that if our neighbor totally, outright rejects Jesus refusing to even hear the word of God and we continue to show them love in our mannerisms, the way we treat them, then this is indeed the love that God tells us to have for them.

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« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2007, 07:51:21 PM »

I knew nothing about Rob Bell or his teachings until you said something here and investigated his teachings directly by his own writings. I will agree that many of his teachings are not Biblical and what we should be concerned about is what the Bible teaches us as being correct.

However I will also agree that we are to love our enemies irregardless if they accept Christ or not as it is not our place to determine what is in their hearts. This love is our foremost commandment. Yes, wanting to see them saved is a large part of this love. After all it would not be love if we were not concerned with the salvation of others. We are not told though to stop loving them if they reject Him. Coming out from among them and being separate from them does not mean to stop loving them.

Mat 22:36  Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38  This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

I would not want to see others suffer in hell any more than I would want to be there myself. This is indeed loving our neighbor as we would love ourselves. Something that we need to keep in mind though is that if our neighbor totally, outright rejects Jesus refusing to even hear the word of God and we continue to show them love in our mannerisms, the way we treat them, then this is indeed the love that God tells us to have for them.



I also knew nothing about Rob Bell.  I got the article from a Southern Baptist magazine.

I have done all types of evangelism from the 4 Spiritual Laws to "friendship evangelism".  When I attended personal evangelism classes at Bible college (early 1970s), "Friendship evangelism" was taught as well as the other ways.

There is definitely a place for "friendship evangelism" as well.  It is fine to share the Gospel on the street, campuses, nursing homes, etc.  But sometimes we run into people where the Lord leads us into a friendship with them....so the Holy Spirit is able to work with them on an ongoing basis.....where they can actually see and learn from a Christian in an  ongoing manner.

I also agree with Pastor Roger that we must continue to love others even if they would reject our faith....this is what Christ taught us to do.
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« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2007, 04:49:05 PM »

I am so glad that you took the time to educate yourself on the teachings of Rob Bell.  That is very noble of you.  Most people go on the attack without really educating themselves first.  I thank you for doing so.

I am in TOTAL agreement that without love we are as sounding brass or clanging symbols.   Amen.  I haven't reviewed my previous post, but I hope I conveyed a sense of that there.  My point is merely that it doesn't take a "relationship" to show your love for someone.  Actually, I find that witnessing to a close friend or loved one is MUCH MORE difficult than with a complete stranger.  This is not because I don't like investing time and energy into friendships, it is just much easier to be rejected by a stranger than with someone who you have so much time invested in. 

As an example,  I spoke to a Muslim this past Friday night for over an hour and that man knew that I loved him and that I was concerned for him.  I didn't have to take him to a movie or out to dinner in order to show my love for him.   I also didn't have to wait 6 months to "slip Jesus" into the conversation.   I just shared the truth with him with tears in my voice and a loving concern in my tone. I will probably never see that man againl, but I know that the Holy Spirit had convicted him and was doing a mighty work on him and I know that He (The Holy Spirit) will be faithfull to complete the work that he started. I directed him to the Bible that he owns and to get involved in a local Bible-teaching church so that they could further educate him and desciple him.  I'm not saying this to pat myself on the back becuse, beleive me, it wasn't in my strength.  I am only saying this as an example of why we can stop believing the lie that "relational" evangelism is better than the Biblical model.

As far as Rob Bell, I don't traditionally choose these forums as a means to communicate but sometimes I just have to sound the alarm any way that I can.  I am also in total agreement that I can not judge what is in a man's heart.  To do so, would be stepping over a very real line that I will not do.  (Actually, my prayer is that Bell will get saved and stop preaching the heresy that he is).  He is not my enemy, but if he speaks contrary to God's word, then he needs to repent because he will receive a stricter judgement (James 3:1)  However, I AM (along with every other Christian)called to judge what someone says and what they teach.  Matthew 7 says to pull the plank from your own eye SO THAT you can see more clearly to pull the speck from your brother's eye. The Bible condemns Hypocritical judgement, but not righteous judgement.  I will continue to examine teaching of every teacher (including those that I traditionally agree with) in light of God's word.  The most loving thing to do for a flock of sheep is to cry "WOLF!" when you see one.  Paul comended the Bereans in Acts 17:11 as being noble because they checked the word daily to see if these things (Paul's teachings) were so.  We must be willing to lay down our own ideas and stand in the face of the growing tide of compromise in this country.  The only thing that seems like it is condemned anymore by most American church-goers is "judging others".  Again, we judge the teachings of the people... not their heart.  If the teaching is out of line w/ the Bible, then we dismiss that teaching and let others know to do the same based on the Word of God.  If a a man is teaching contrary to God's word, that man is a False teacher, not doubt about it.   If he will turn from his false teaching, God is rich in mercy and will grant him repentance if he seeks it.  It is hard to find a page in the new testament where Paul, Matthew, John, Luke, Peter, Jude, or any other NT writer is not warning us about false teachers in the end times.  Yet we walk around believing everything that is taught in Jesus' name is according to God's will.  The false teachers are going to be speaking "in Jesus' name".  They aren't going to sound a horn and pronounce themselves as "false teachers".   We have to be on the look-out and not just accept what someone is saying because we bought their book in a "Christian" bookstore, or we saw them preach on TBN, or because they sold millions of books.  The crowd has almost always been wrong when it comes to these things and the righteous are normally the "remnant/fringe" group  that God sets aside to accomplish His purpose.  I urge you, not to follow the crowd, they will certainly mislead you.  Stick with the Word of God, even if you have to stand alone in doing so.  Not because you are trying to be a Spiritual "know it all" but because you love the truth.   

I thank you for even taking the time to read this post.  I don't think that I am smarter than anyone and God is constantly working on establishing the truth of His Word in my heart.  I'm in no way, a finished product.  I never will be...I hope you understand that I am not on the attack.  However, I do believe that Christians are called to take a place on the wall and be watchmen in the house of God.  We need to guard and protect our brothers and sisters in the faith against these attacks and not open the doors to the palace while the enemy rolls the trojan horse into the middle of God's house.   God bless you.

Neil

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« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2007, 07:31:36 PM »


I am in TOTAL agreement that without love we are as sounding brass or clanging symbols.   Amen.  I haven't reviewed my previous post, but I hope I conveyed a sense of that there.  My point is merely that it doesn't take a "relationship" to show your love for someone.  Actually, I find that witnessing to a close friend or loved one is MUCH MORE difficult than with a complete stranger.  This is not because I don't like investing time and energy into friendships, it is just much easier to be rejected by a stranger than with someone who you have so much time invested in. 

As an example,  I spoke to a Muslim this past Friday night for over an hour and that man knew that I loved him and that I was concerned for him.  I didn't have to take him to a movie or out to dinner in order to show my love for him.   I also didn't have to wait 6 months to "slip Jesus" into the conversation.   I just shared the truth with him with tears in my voice and a loving concern in my tone. I will probably never see that man againl, but I know that the Holy Spirit had convicted him and was doing a mighty work on him and I know that He (The Holy Spirit) will be faithfull to complete the work that he started. I directed him to the Bible that he owns and to get involved in a local Bible-teaching church so that they could further educate him and desciple him.  I'm not saying this to pat myself on the back becuse, beleive me, it wasn't in my strength.  I am only saying this as an example of why we can stop believing the lie that "relational" evangelism is better than the Biblical model.

Neil

Hi Neil, I'm not saying that Friendship Evangelism is better than any other type.....but that there is also a place for friendship evangelism, if the Lord leads one to do that.  For instance, many years ago I sat beside a Muslim at a lunch counter.  He saw me reading the Bible and we started to talk....I shared with him the message of the promised, coming Messiah, etc, and how Jesus shed His Blood for our sins and all we need to do is to believe in Christ as our personal Savior and receive Him.  About 2 months later, this Muslim tapped me on the shoulder at the restaurant and said "I just want you to know I became a Christian."

Now a different example:  I know a Muslim that has had very bad experiences with Christians trying to witness to him.  Once a man bombarded my friend every day (for months)....all the Christian said everyday was "you need to become a Christian"!  He would come into my friend's business and do this everyday....it drove my friend crazy, upset him, and he thought the guy was uneducated to do this!

Meanwhile, my Muslim friend has listened to the Gospel from me and he has also seen what a true Christian is like over the course of our friendship.  It has made a deep impression on him and his family.  They have never rejected what I told them of Christ and His atonement; they listen and the wife has even asked questions on her own accord and always asks for our prayers, and even for prayers from my church.

Sometimes we also find people that are very ill or in turmoil.  When we lovingly share about Christ and what He can do in our lives, people like this often receive the Lord very easily.  The Holy Spirit has prepared the heart.

So I think we all need to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit and His leading, about what way we should share our faith with each individual.  I cannot tell anyone else how to share and, likewise, another cannot tell me a certain way.  The leading of the Holy Spirit is always best.

P.S.  Also, when we are there for people in their illnesses and troubles, helping them, praying for them....this really helps people to see Christ and to realize more about our faith.
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« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2007, 10:18:08 PM »

Something that we all must understand is that God gives us all different means and ways of witnessing to others. We all have our own individual God given personalities. One may preach hellfire and damnation yet another may preach using soft spoken friendly words. One is not wrong and the other right. God uses all who follow Him, no matter what their personalities, to His benefit. We see these differences in the teaching methods of Jesus and the Apostles. At times Jesus was curt and to the point teaching hellfire and yet another time He was soft spoken. The same is true of the Apostles and yet there was love behind both methods. What is important is that Christ is preached in all truth. No matter which witnessing method may be used there will always be those that are offended, upset and consider Christians as being "uneducated" or uncouth.

The most true statement made here is "The leading of the Holy Spirit is always best" and sometimes we may be led to be plain and blunt instead of the politically correct "friendly".

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« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2007, 10:30:05 PM »

Evangelism to me starts on my knees...to study the word to be ready for any question that a sound answer can be given...There are so many who are lifted up among men but there is only one we can lift up that has the power to save us and that being Jesus and to know Him is to know His word and to tell others of Him is to live Him and be committed even unto death...People notice a true christian because they hate us as they knew Chriat and hated Him...Christianity has become like Hollywood that the gospel is watered down and lives are compromised to fit into society..but it is the ones who take the stand for Christ that will soon know persecution..like we have never known it and will know what it is to live for Christ...This is the witness many will see as they will see we can endure even through persecution and will cause those called by His name to repent...which this is the word that is taken out of many churches to not offend..Brothers and Sister..WE HAVE WORK TO DO AND IT STARTS ON OUR KNEES...
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« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2007, 10:36:37 PM »

Quote
WE HAVE WORK TO DO AND IT STARTS ON OUR KNEES...

Amen! In all that we do this is the only place to start and it is the place to continually return to.

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« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2007, 01:38:59 AM »

I agree in praying for people to be saved....for the Holy Spirit to work in their hearts, to help them realize their need of Christ as their Savior, too.
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« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2007, 02:35:45 AM »

Brothers and Sisters,

I think this is a great thread and I've enjoyed it. The exchange of various ideas and methods is wonderful.

I know there are all kinds of missions, ministries, witnessing, and work to do for GOD. FURTHER, I know that GOD has work for all of us to do if we will just pray and yield.

I know that many Christians make excuses and think they aren't good at this or that so there isn't anything for them to do. WRONG - GOD needs all kinds of work to be done with all kinds of people, and GOD can use all of us.

I think that nearly everyone has mentioned the need to pray. This would include prayer about the benefit of the work to be done, prayer that GOD leads and guides us, prayer for the other people involved, and prayer for ourselves that we will yield completely for GOD'S use. I doubt that anyone was talking about just praying once because most of us know that prayer must be continued and things change. Our needs might also change, and we should pray about those needs (i.e. patience, difficulty, strength, courage, guidance, etc.). One person might be working for GOD on a battlefield and another in a kindergarten class, so we should know that GOD can and does use all kinds of people. SO, I think that the most important thing is for all of us to pray, yield, go, and keep praying.

I also think that we were talking about Christians of many different occupations, not just preachers, missionaries, or others dedicated 100% to only GOD'S Work. All of us should simply know that GOD always has work needing to be done.

Love In Christ,
Tom

   
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« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2007, 02:55:19 AM »

I wanted to add a P.S. about my Muslim friends.  In the beginning I endured alot of anger, etc., from them.  But I just kept loving them in and through Christ.  Then a total turning point came.  The Holy Spirit is still working, in them as He is in us....it's wonderful to know that everything does not depend on our often feeble attempts.  Smiley  But He is able to reach hearts, to speak to hearts that need Christ as their Savior.
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