Israelophiles

[Hitch]

Can any of you produce a prophecy  ,promise  or passage  regarding a return to the Land  by the jews made after the completion of the return from Babylon?

Hitch

[Symphony]

Hiya Hitch.

"...after the completion of the return from Babylon" would be about 500 something B.C., wouldn't it?


First, it's a rather technical question.  For the whole of Revelation, for instance, you can get an array of interpretations--the most dominant today of which is, you can't understand it, so why bother, and the other extreme, Oh, well it applies to the 1st Centruy Church.  And then in between a whole plethora of every garden variety of interpretation.

And the same would seem to be true of prophecies, regarding the return of Jews to a  homeland.

There are many, actually, in one form or another, throughout all the O.T., of God fulfilling his promise to Abraham, "...as the seashore...".  

You can get into technical battles as to which applies to which return.

But I have a real hard time not believing, for instance, that the 1948 return is not a fulfillment--if not specifically, at least generally.

Largely, the 1948 return was actually facilitated--or at least definitely expedited by Adolf Hitler, an extermination holocaust to beat all holocausts that ever came before  it(at least in terms of magnitude) though arguablly, because of the Zionist movement already begun in 1896, the 1948 return may have come about anyway, though I doubt as quickly nor as forcefully(no sooner did the Jews hit the beach of Gaza, than they had to literally start fighting for their lives all over again...).

[Hitch]

Ok Symph,,then it shouldnt be hard to locate one made following the return from Babylon,,,should it?

Take care

Hitch

[twobombs]

Dan 9:25     Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

From Nehemiah to Christ entering the city of Jerusalem are 69 weeks of 7 years each ; 483 years.

483-30 = 453 BC in 360 days prophetic years ; a deviation of 7 years or so; 445 BC gregorian would be a very educated guess...  
anyone care to look this up in history books ?

( update: already did this with Google; most hits say +/- 450 BC I dare to say the bible is more accurate )

Well...  this took me 10 minutes with only one line of scripture...
Anyone care to read the overview of my study on the  Rapture that took me 10 years ?  

[Symphony]

Hmm, I don't know, twobombs.  What is your conclusion?


Hitch, to get what you're asking, the prophetic verse would just about have to specify that particular return from Babylon.

Some events in the O.T. are specific.  E.g., a solar eclipse is mentioned in Assyrian tablets.  Scholars know this date from astronomical tables, as occurring on June 15th or 16th, in 763 B.C..  From this they can date accurately the reign of the Assyrian kings for about 300 years forward of 910 B.C., which then they can use to identify biblical events.  (from BAR mag., Sept/Oct 2003, p.52)

Unless you're speaking of the period of the actual writingof the particular prophecy.  If you're talking about when a prophecy was actually penned, I don't know of much agreement on O.T. prophecies of when this took place, as many estimates seem to vary by as much as 500 years either way.

It says at the end of Luke there that Jesus opened up the scriiptures, "And beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself."  (24:27)

So I'm gathering that OT prophecies have multiple applications, from specific to general, at different periods.

Actually, the 1948 "return" is the first return, since the Romans made their final desecration, in the Second Jewish Revolt, 135 A.D.--just over 1800 years ago.

Before that, the "return" as indicated, I'm guessing, in Nehemiah.

But all or most of the OT prophecies to me are so "spiritual", or dreamlike, like trying to pin down a puff of smoke.

[Hitch]

Dan 9:25     Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

From Nehemiah to Christ entering the city of Jerusalem are 69 weeks of 7 years each ; 483 years.

483-30 = 453 BC in 360 days prophetic years ; a deviation of 7 years or so; 445 BC gregorian would be a very educated guess...  
anyone care to look this up in history books ?

( update: already did this with Google; most hits say +/- 450 BC I dare to say the bible is more accurate )

Well...  this took me 10 minutes with only one line of scripture...
Anyone care to read the overview of my study on the  Rapture that took me 10 years ?  

I have no clue as to how this relates to the question.

[Hitch]

Hmm, I don't know, twobombs.  What is your conclusion?


Hitch, to get what you're asking, the prophetic verse would just about have to specify that particular return from Babylon.

Some events in the O.T. are specific.  E.g., a solar eclipse is mentioned in Assyrian tablets.  Scholars know this date from astronomical tables, as occurring on June 15th or 16th, in 763 B.C..  From this they can date accurately the reign of the Assyrian kings for about 300 years forward of 910 B.C., which then they can use to identify biblical events.  (from BAR mag., Sept/Oct 2003, p.52)

Unless you're speaking of the period of the actual writingof the particular prophecy.  If you're talking about when a prophecy was actually penned, I don't know of much agreement on O.T. prophecies of when this took place, as many estimates seem to vary by as much as 500 years either way.

It says at the end of Luke there that Jesus opened up the scriiptures, "And beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself."  (24:27)

So I'm gathering that OT prophecies have multiple applications, from specific to general, at different periods.

Actually, the 1948 "return" is the first return, since the Romans made their final desecration, in the Second Jewish Revolt, 135 A.D.--just over 1800 years ago.

Before that, the "return" as indicated, I'm guessing, in Nehemiah.

But all or most of the OT prophecies to me are so "spiritual", or dreamlike, like trying to pin down a puff of smoke.

Dreamlike,,puff of smoke..watch out Symph talk like that ---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Anyway, I think this is quite simple. Procuce a promise or anything close of a return to the Land that came after the completion of the return frm Babylon.


Take care

Hitch

[twobombs]

OT or NT ?

'cuz when I feed you Revelation or Romans, you will know it's 50AD and onward...  When I give you OT we could end up in a has-been hasn't-been fullfilled type of scenario ....

Does the term: "fullness of the gentiles" pop up a scripture ?
"partial blindness" in the same verse would make it complete, wouldn't it ?

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Now, Hitch; does it read, Israel or does it read Jew ?
It reads :

[ Greek for 2474 ]
Israel = "he shall be a prince of God"
1) the name given to the patriarch Jacob (and borne by him in
addition to his former name)
2) the family or descendants of Israel, the nation of Israel
3) Christians, the Israel of God (Gal 6:16), for not all those who draw their bodily descent from Israel are true Israelites, i.e. are those whom God pronounces to be Israelites and has chosen to salvation

Source: http://www.blueletterbible.org
again; this didn't took more then 10 minutes.
_____________________________________________

So: the foundation of the state of Israel has been a very big marker for the Rapture to come, right ?
But Israel has been around so long, we almost forgot.

Anyone slapped a fellow servant recently ?

Repent, ppl, repent; the Day of Days is at hand, even when around you no one noticed this, this is the day to repent....

[Hitch]

The virus seems to be a bay..

Lets try OT first then we can move on.

Hitch

[Petro]

Deut 5
2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3  The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
4  The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,
5  (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to show you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount;) saying,
6  I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
7  Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
8  Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
9  Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
10  And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
11  Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
12  Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.
13  Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:
14  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.
15  And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
16  Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
17  Thou shalt not kill.
18  Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
19  Neither shalt thou steal.
20  Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
21  Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.
22  These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
23  And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders;
24  And ye said, Behold, the LORD our God hath showed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.
25  Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die.
26  For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?
27  Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it.
28  And the LORD heard the voice of your words, when ye spake unto me; and the LORD said unto me, I have heard the voice of the words of this people, which they have spoken unto thee: they have well said all that they have spoken.
29  O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Deut 29
1  These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

[Petro]

Deut 30
30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

(Was the destruction by the Roman legions a blessing or a curse??)


2  And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3  That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4  If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:[/b ]
5  And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

(Is the nation in the Land, Not being assembled as we speak??; the very word "shalt" at verse 5, is in the future tense, as in "shall possess it in the end")
 
6  And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

(verse will happen when they ALL be gathered into the land)

7  And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
8  And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
9  And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
10  If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
11  For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

(And it all based on the nation obey His commandments, on  which the Old Covenant was based.)


Anyone who might reject that Israel will not be gathered up to inhabit the land given to them by God, might want to ask themseves, What is the purpose of their gathering in their homeland today, the blessing to them of coming to knowledge of their Lord is to be done just as prophecied, when they He shall make himself known to them, at the time that they shall behold HIM whom they have pierced in the latter days.

Note;

Deut 4
27  And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.
28  And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
29  But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
30  When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
31  (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
32  For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and ask from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it?


Truly, it has been told to people the story of Israel, and is not believed (even among them that call themseves Gods people) that God will deal with them in the same place where He made the covenant with them, in the end times.

Eze 37
37:1  The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2  And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3  And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4  Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5  Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6  And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7  So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8  And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9  Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10  So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11  Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12  Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

The prophecy of the dry bones, is to the entire house of Israel, and this prohecy will be fulfilled when ALL of the bones of the house of Israel are assembled in the Land.

This prophecy is being fuillfilled TODAY, as mute testimony to Gods faithfullness.

Here is the prophecy that is rejected by those who hold to the teachings of Arian nations.



Petro

[Symphony]

Wow, thanks, Petro.  

Um, twobombs, "...didn't took..." ??


Ahem.  

[Symphony]

Actually, it's a good question, Hitch.


I think I'll keep my eyes open, as I'm reading through scripture.


What's your point, anyway?  Or, why are you asking?

[Hitch]

Actually, it's a good question, Hitch.


I think I'll keep my eyes open, as I'm reading through scripture.


What's your point, anyway?  Or, why are you asking?

Obviouly Symph if the prophecies concerning returning to thje Land all come BEFORE a literal phyxsical return then  those promises are fulfilled.  And niether Petro nor anyone else can come up with a single prophcy of return to th eLand made AFTER the completion of the Babylonian exile.

Not that Scripture means anything to them, but it makes a witness.

Take care

Hitch

[Allinall]