What is first?

[Petro]

Actually Armenianism, is a revised form of Peligianism, both were rejected at synods, and found to be heretical, but this doesn't bother those that teach the position.

The most glaring inconsistency of those who hold to the doctrines of Arminius and his followers is that of verbally claiming the blood of Christ, but denying its efficacy in as much as it covers ALL sin.

If the blood of Jesus did not pay for all the sins of His people, if there is one sin, Jesus did not pay for by His shed blood, for any individual then that individual not only has never been saved by the blood of Jesus, but that individual never has become nor is one of HIS, inspite of what that individual says or may claim.

Because if its true;  that HE died for all, then ALL were dead, And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
(2 Cor 5:14-15)

So them that have NOTdied to self, according to these scriptures, do not belong to Him.

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.  (Jhn 11:26)

The Arminius doctrines, contradict the saviors Words.

How does this square up, to ones confession, he believes the Savior??


Blessings,
Petro

[Ralph]

  Petro--You are right about pelagianism. It is one of the most wicked and deceiving of heresies. Many theologians today recognise that the Arminian heresy of today recognise is
semi-pelagianism. It is clear from studying the two forms of doctrine that they intertwine and overlap on another. No doubt that is why Pelagianism came to you mind at the mention of Arminianism.

[asaph]

 Petro--You are right about pelagianism. It is one of the most wicked and deceiving of heresies. Many theologians today recognise that the Arminian heresy of today recognise is
semi-pelagianism. It is clear from studying the two forms of doctrine that they intertwine and overlap on another. No doubt that is why Pelagianism came to you mind at the mention of Arminianism.

Both camps call each other harry ticks, so who's right?

[asaph]

I like what Jesus said in John's Gospel:
Ch.9
39   And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
40   And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
41   Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

I wonder who has all the answers?

[Whitehorse]

What is first? Salvation or Faith? I am not a greek scholar. The exegesis that follows is taken from: http://www.crisispub.com/calvinism/
This is food for thought.

Calvinists Claim We Believe After
We Are Saved


The Westminster Confession of Faith states:

     “This effectual call is of God’s free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man; who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.”[1]  Note: passive…until…quickened; thus all conditions of salvation are done away.

Loraine Boettner says:

      “A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved.”[2]

Arthur W. Pink says:

      “A man is not regenerated because he has first believed in Christ, but he believes in Christ because he has been regenerated.”[3]

R. C. Sproul says:

     “We do not believe in order to be born again; we are born again that we may believe.”[4]

Now that the Calvinist has altered or reversed the Biblical order of salvation, believe then Christian experience, to Christian experience then believe, the argument of tense and mood in salvation terminology in the Greek New Testament has lost its force, and so, meaningless;[5] meaningless, because according to the system, the elect one is irresistibly saved apart from condition whatsoever, THEN the saved one believes, etc. And so, if believe, or faith is after salvation, the argument about tense and mood of salvation terms is irrelevant. But we will show that the Scriptural order of Christian experience is to believe then salvation and the utter relevance of tense, mode, etc.

Next Post

Well, I'm just jumping in at this point because I don't have time to real the whole thread right now, but actually, it isn't that we are saved before we believe, although in a sense we are. Let me explain. God predestined all things; He predestined our salvation. In that sense, we're saved, but it is not manifest yet. God has attained it for us, but we have not attained it. We have to reach out and grasp what God has predestined and attained for us.

Verses:

Romans 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Philippians 3:10-14    

3:10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

3:11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

3:12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

3:13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

3:14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

[Petro]

 Petro--You are right about pelagianism. It is one of the most wicked and deceiving of heresies. Many theologians today recognise that the Arminian heresy of today recognise is
semi-pelagianism. It is clear from studying the two forms of doctrine that they intertwine and overlap on another. No doubt that is why Pelagianism came to you mind at the mention of Arminianism.

Both camps call each other harry ticks, so who's right?

One thing is for sure, Gods Word is right...and I don't mean how or who interprets it either..


Blessings,
Petro

Petro

[Petro]

I like what Jesus said in John's Gospel:
Ch.9
39   And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
40   And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
41   Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

I wonder who has all the answers?

 The Word of God does.

1 Cor 2
12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.


Blessings,

Petro

[Petro]

What is first? Salvation or Faith? I am not a greek scholar. The exegesis that follows is taken from: http://www.crisispub.com/calvinism/
This is food for thought.

Calvinists Claim We Believe After
We Are Saved


The Westminster Confession of Faith states:

     “This effectual call is of God’s free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man; who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.”[1]  Note: passive…until…quickened; thus all conditions of salvation are done away.

Loraine Boettner says:

      “A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved.”[2]

Arthur W. Pink says:

      “A man is not regenerated because he has first believed in Christ, but he believes in Christ because he has been regenerated.”[3]

R. C. Sproul says:

     “We do not believe in order to be born again; we are born again that we may believe.”[4]

Now that the Calvinist has altered or reversed the Biblical order of salvation, believe then Christian experience, to Christian experience then believe, the argument of tense and mood in salvation terminology in the Greek New Testament has lost its force, and so, meaningless;[5] meaningless, because according to the system, the elect one is irresistibly saved apart from condition whatsoever, THEN the saved one believes, etc. And so, if believe, or faith is after salvation, the argument about tense and mood of salvation terms is irrelevant. But we will show that the Scriptural order of Christian experience is to believe then salvation and the utter relevance of tense, mode, etc.

Next Post

Well, I'm just jumping in at this point because I don't have time to real the whole thread right now, but actually, it isn't that we are saved before we believe, although in a sense we are. Let me explain. God predestined all things; He predestined our salvation. In that sense, we're saved, but it is not manifest yet. God has attained it for us, but we have not attained it. We have to reach out and grasp what God has predestined and attained for us.

Verses:

Romans 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Philippians 3:10-14    

3:10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

3:11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

3:12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

3:13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

3:14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

whitehorse,

Good thought.

God knew us in Christ, since before the foundation of the world.

God Bless,

Petro

[asaph]

Whitehorse,
I understand where you are coming from. You said-

Well, I'm just jumping in at this point because I don't have time to real the whole thread right now, but actually, it isn't that we are saved before we believe, although in a sense we are. Let me explain. God predestined all things; He predestined our salvation. In that sense, we're saved, but it is not manifest yet. God has attained it for us, but we have not attained it. We have to reach out and grasp what God has predestined and attained for us.

Verses:

Romans 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Actually God did not predestine us to salvation but to be conformed to the image of His Son. There is a difference. Salvation is for "whosoever will". From that point we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. This prdestination is conditioned on our continuing in the Faith. I need not list the many scriptures confirming this, but...
Col 1
 21   And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22   In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23   If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1 Corinthians 15
1   Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2   By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Rom 9
30   What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31   But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32   Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33   As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Why did the Israelites not attain to righteousness? This was a perfect opportunity for Paul. He could have answered: Because they were not predestined.  However, his answer was not that but rather: Because they sought it not by faith.

Chapter nine proves one thing: that God is sovereign. God chose faith in Christ as the means to salvation. He did not choose natural descent or works. The Jews wanted it to be natural descent and works and so rejected faith in Jesus, thereby rejecting the soverignty of God. God chooses the method of salvation, not man.

Election is the result of man putting his faith in Jesus Christ, not the means to salvation. Jesus is the elect and we corporately in Him are elect by faith .

asaph

[Petro]

Whitehorse,
I understand where you are coming from. You said-

Well, I'm just jumping in at this point because I don't have time to real the whole thread right now, but actually, it isn't that we are saved before we believe, although in a sense we are. Let me explain. God predestined all things; He predestined our salvation. In that sense, we're saved, but it is not manifest yet. God has attained it for us, but we have not attained it. We have to reach out and grasp what God has predestined and attained for us.

Verses:

Romans 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Actually God did not predestine us to salvation but to be conformed to the image of His Son. There is a difference. Salvation is for "whosoever will". From that point we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. This prdestination is conditioned on our continuing in the Faith. I need not list the many scriptures confirming this, but...
Col 1
 21   And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22   In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23   If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1 Corinthians 15
1   Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2   By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Rom 9
30   What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31   But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32   Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33   As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Why did the Israelites not attain to righteousness? This was a perfect opportunity for Paul. He could have answered: Because they were not predestined.  However, his answer was not that but rather: Because they sought it not by faith.

Chapter nine proves one thing: that God is sovereign. God chose faith in Christ as the means to salvation. He did not choose natural descent or works. The Jews wanted it to be natural descent and works and so rejected faith in Jesus, thereby rejecting the soverignty of God. God chooses the method of salvation, not man.

Election is the result of man putting his faith in Jesus Christ, not the means to salvation. Jesus is the elect and we corporately in Him are elect by faith .

asaph

asaph,

Water Baptism is not by faith...

Petro

[Ralph]

  Asaph--you refer to both sides calling one another hairy ticks and then as, "so who is right?" That, friend, you already know. The Bible--the Bible alone settles the issue. That is thew reason that the watchword of the Reformers is "Sola Scriptura." Another thing which the reformation faith (some call it Calvinism) makes clear is that ALL GLORY belongs to God. So another phrase is precious to us: "Soli Deo Gloria."
  The thing about Arminianism which is most offensive to us is that Arminian doctrine would deprive God of much glory which is His alone.

[asaph]

Whitehorse,
I understand where you are coming from. You said-

Well, I'm just jumping in at this point because I don't have time to real the whole thread right now, but actually, it isn't that we are saved before we believe, although in a sense we are. Let me explain. God predestined all things; He predestined our salvation. In that sense, we're saved, but it is not manifest yet. God has attained it for us, but we have not attained it. We have to reach out and grasp what God has predestined and attained for us.

Verses:

Romans 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Actually God did not predestine us to salvation but to be conformed to the image of His Son. There is a difference. Salvation is for "whosoever will". From that point we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. This prdestination is conditioned on our continuing in the Faith. I need not list the many scriptures confirming this, but...
Col 1
 21   And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22   In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23   If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1 Corinthians 15
1   Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2   By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Rom 9
30   What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31   But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32   Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33   As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Why did the Israelites not attain to righteousness? This was a perfect opportunity for Paul. He could have answered: Because they were not predestined.  However, his answer was not that but rather: Because they sought it not by faith.

Chapter nine proves one thing: that God is sovereign. God chose faith in Christ as the means to salvation. He did not choose natural descent or works. The Jews wanted it to be natural descent and works and so rejected faith in Jesus, thereby rejecting the soverignty of God. God chooses the method of salvation, not man.

Election is the result of man putting his faith in Jesus Christ, not the means to salvation. Jesus is the elect and we corporately in Him are elect by faith .

asaph

asaph,

Water Baptism is not by faith...

Petro

It's not? Then is it sin to you? For whatever is not of faith is sin. Or is it works to you? Why obey anything Jesus says? It is all by faith. "From faith to faith" is what we are told. The just shall live by faith.
I hope people realize that obedience to Christ is a faith matter. The outcome of that obedience is in His hands. It is not for us to sit and judge Jesus and dissect His words to the point of rendering them empty of all meaning, but it is for us to enjoy Him in obedience.
John 15
11   These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

14   Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Is obeying Jesus of faith or not?

asaph

[Petro]

asaph's reply #26
It's not? Then is it sin to you? For whatever is not of faith is sin. Or is it works to you?

It is not works to me, since I put no confidence in it.
However, in spite what you say, out of one side of your mouth, you argue as though it is the means to salvation with your otherside.
It has become a work, which when added to faith produces what you deisrem it to.

Why obey anything Jesus says? It is all by faith. "From faith to faith" is what we are told. The just shall live by faith.

But you say, faith to works, since it is necessary to be baptized in water, and according to your testimonial, without the water, there is no Holy Spirit which can be received.

I hope people realize that obedience to Christ is a faith matter.

I say AMEN to this, knowing that what you define  obedience as the work you perform, not the work God performs.  You see, our obedience by faith produces the work of God which in us, is justification by faith, in your case, your obedience produces your work, which in turn according to you produced your justification in your eyes.

If this is true,

It is most definitely true, many deceive themselves, so much so, that in that day, they would even claim to Jesus;  

"Did not we do these things in your name.

"Yet the Lord will ansdwer; Get away from me you that worketh iniquity."

The outcome of that obedience is in His hands. It is not for us to sit and judge Jesus and dissect His words to the point of rendering them empty of all meaning, but it is for us to enjoy Him in obedience.

John 15
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Is obeying Jesus of faith or not?

asaph

Obeying Jesus, IS,..............

but,  water baptism is not, his command to the eleven was for them to go into the world and Baptize, are you one of the eleven??

You would claim that,  to disobey Jesus, would bring on wrath, and be a cause for being disowned (losing salvation) as a child of God (Heb 6:4-6), while the scriptures are clear that, those that are of the same faith as Abraham, these are the children of God.

The scriptures clearly to tell us, that Abraham believed God, and his FAITH was counted for his righteousness, and was justified, when he was tested of God, Abraham believed God, this is why he obeyed HIM.

Water Baptism is at the very least, a commandment given to them that are saved by FAITH, not to the unsaved. To be obeyed by those who have received the Holy Spirit and through HIS power Gods children are able to obey.

You make it a command by Jesus, that Jesus never gave to baptize those that do not believe, promising them the Holy Spirit if they are..  So who is disputing the very words of Jesus?

Once again, so you will understand your error;  The command to Baptize was given to the 11, to baptize those who have been saved (believed),they believed because God gave them the gift of FAITH through GRACE, the Holy Spirit sealing them into the body of Christ (we call this the Baptism with the Holy Spirit); these were the ones that are to be water baptized.

This command was not given, to them who have not believed GOD.

There is quite a difference believing the Words Jesus spoke of His Father this must come first, then one can hear an obey the Words of the Son, because the Father is revealed by the Son and the Son by the Father.

Rom 14
23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.


Blessings,
Petro