Reality of sexual Abstinance

[barelahh]

Wanted to see what folks opinions on Abstinance, not necessarily on if its the right thing to do but the reality of its success and also on the effects of it on the human body.

One thing i have come to realize is that there isn't one place in the bible where long term abstinence is taught concerning reproductive age people.  I see where its suggested that widows over 60 i guess would be suggested but not in anyone younger. 

This leads me to the health effects of long term abstinence.  it is physically harmful to the body particularly in males.  The males testosterone levels drop significantly causing bone loss, muscle loss, decrease in good sperm, along with mental health and depression, issues with self esteem as well.

Then you have to boil  it down to the reality of the situation.  young people just aren't going to wait long before having sex.  With all the good intentions they have its just not realistic to expect them to wait.   They aren't ready to get married until their educated to be able to provide for their spouse.  so that means an additional 4 - 8 years in college after age 18, and then obtaining a good job that will support them.  that pretty much extends the waiting period to around 22 - 26 years of age and it really is pushing things for most kids.

Why is it we have this expectation that kids can resist it?  i hear all the time people saying that with religion they will succeed.  i'll bet willing to bet i would walk into any church in america with 10 or more kids and take 10 kids and at least half of them have had sex, and maybe 1 out of the other half will succeed getting past 22 or 23 years of age without having sex and usually that would be because they got married early.

Why is it we expect them to resist something that most of us wouldn't be able to resist. Try going without it for 6 months to a year.  You won't be married long if you do, so if we can't go without how can we expect our young folks to resist doing something that is God given natural function.

What is the solution to keeping kids from sexual activity.  It most certainly isn't abstinance. that has a 80% failure rate.

[2nd Timothy]

Jemdude, is that you?    If not, this sounds just another thread around here about the same thing.

Anyhow....

Wanted to see what folks opinions on Abstinance, not necessarily on if its the right thing to do but the reality of its success and also on the effects of it on the human body.

Just wondering, about all the other sins a man is prone to as well.  Using your argument, it seems unreasonable to tell man that he shouldn't sin, and expect him not to.   So, doesn't any form of abstinence from lying, cheating, wrong thoughts and deeds go against our sin nature too, yet we still teach abstinence from those things?   Is it reasonable to expect success in these areas considering we are sinful fleshy creatures and it goes against our very nature as humans?  Just wondering where you draw the line there.

One thing i have come to realize is that there isn't one place in the bible where long term abstinence is taught concerning reproductive age people.

1Th 4:3  For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
1Th 4:4  That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honor;

Does there need to be a long-term definition to the above command?   I see little wiggle room, and no hints about short term application. 


1Pe 2:11  Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

Note what the fleshy lusts are....

Gal 5:19  Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20  Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21  Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


All of these fall into the category of abstinence, and we all struggle with sin because of our sin nature.    Just wondering what you think the reality of success is for teaching abstinence from this entire list in Galatians?

Why is it we expect them to resist something that most of us wouldn't be able to resist. Try going without it for 6 months to a year.  You won't be married long if you do, so if we can't go without how can we expect our young folks to resist doing something that is God given natural function.

While I cannot argue that some temptations are great, scripture also tells us that God will not allow us to be tempted beyond that which we are not able to stand and escape.

1Co 10:13  There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

What is the solution to keeping kids from sexual activity.  It most certainly isn't abstinence. that has a 80% failure rate. 

I'll simply have to stand on Gods word here.  Clearly abstinence is taught not only regarding fornication but a whole slew of fleshy issues we have.  It never says its going to be easy, but it is taught.  We as believers must stand on the word and teach our kids to do the same.   To teach them that scripture is too harsh for their biological impulses, is heading down a dangerous road IMO.   


The solution is teaching them to walk in the spirit as scripture tells us.

Gal 5:16  This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.


This covers the whole lot of fleshy lusts.   Should we fail to practice walking in the spirit, sexual purity is but ONE thing we will have to worry about.

Blessings!

[barelahh]

Ok, i can see your point there. But the reality is that it is going to be a high failure rate no matter how much you teach it.  you pointed out several things like murder, ect ect ect, well murder isn't exactly a pleasurable activity that our bodies need.

On the subject of our bodies, what about the physical aspect of longterm abstinance.  it does physical harm to us. 

[2nd Timothy]

Ok, i can see your point there. But the reality is that it is going to be a high failure rate no matter how much you teach it.  you pointed out several things like murder, ect ect ect, well murder isn't exactly a pleasurable activity that our bodies need.

Yes, I know what you are saying, however, sexual sin is different than the others too.

1Co 6:18  Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

This is the only sin that is against ones own body, therefore the command to FLEE this one!  I still think the previous points apply though.   Young folks CAN abstain.  Its the Spiritual walk that needs exercise and application, not the physical needs.

On the subject of our bodies, what about the physical aspect of longterm abstinance.  it does physical harm to us. 

Not sure I've heard that one.  Where does this information come from?

[Soldier4Christ]

Jemdude, is that you?    If not, this sounds just another thread around here about the same thing.

lol   ...    I thought the same thing.


First of all I want to remind everyone that this is a Christian Family forum and being such there are some very young children on here. With that thought in mind please be careful how detailed you get.

My thoughts on this subject are pretty much in line with what 2T said.

Abstinence programs are just the same as any other such program. They are as effective as the person receiving them wants them to be. One example of this is the program for alcoholism. One of the problems with abstinence programs today is that God is left out of them. When we leave God out of anything in our lives then it becomes a failure. Problems with abstinence, teen pregnancies and more all started when God was taken out of the public schools. Sure it existed prior to that but not to the extent that we have it since that time. This can also be compared to those that have attended church all their lives and have never been saved.

Paul remained celibate and unmarried. It has been debated just as to how long he lived but he did get to be old for his time and yet was fairly healthy. There are many men that have a very fulfilling marital life that still have problems with their health in that aspect. As long as we are in the flesh we will have various health problems. At one time it was common for people to abstain until married and yet there was not the health problems experienced that you speak of. The lack of abstinence today creates more health problems than does the alternate.

We live in a society that says if it feels good do it without regard for the end results.

[Debp]

Jemdude, is that you?    If not, this sounds just another thread around here about the same thing.

Anyhow....


Just wondering, about all the other sins a man is prone to as well.  Using your argument, it seems unreasonable to tell man that he shouldn't sin, and expect him not to.   So, doesn't any form of abstinence from lying, cheating, wrong thoughts and deeds go against our sin nature too, yet we still teach abstinence from those things?   Is it reasonable to expect success in these areas considering we are sinful fleshy creatures and it goes against our very nature as humans?  Just wondering where you draw the line there.

 


1Th 4:3  For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
1Th 4:4  That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honor;

Does there need to be a long-term definition to the above command?   I see little wiggle room, and no hints about short term application. 


1Pe 2:11  Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

Note what the fleshy lusts are....

Gal 5:19  Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20  Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21  Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


All of these fall into the category of abstinence, and we all struggle with sin because of our sin nature.    Just wondering what you think the reality of success is for teaching abstinence from this entire list in Galatians?


While I cannot argue that some temptations are great, scripture also tells us that God will not allow us to be tempted beyond that which we are not able to stand and escape.

1Co 10:13  There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.


 


I'll simply have to stand on Gods word here.  Clearly abstinence is taught not only regarding fornication but a whole slew of fleshy issues we have.  It never says its going to be easy, but it is taught.  We as believers must stand on the word and teach our kids to do the same.   To teach them that scripture is too harsh for their biological impulses, is heading down a dangerous road IMO.   


The solution is teaching them to walk in the spirit as scripture tells us.

Gal 5:16  This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.


This covers the whole lot of fleshy lusts.   Should we fail to practice walking in the spirit, sexual purity is but ONE thing we will have to worry about.

Blessings!

Very good answers from Scripture, Tim.  Of course, we should teach our children abstinence until marriage. Fornication has ruined many lifes and leads people away from God.   Also, there is the problem of STDs, out of wedlock pregnacies and possibly abortions....(all due to disobeying God's command about sex within marriage only).  These only create heartbreak and misery....we should explain this to our children.

We should teach our children that sex within marriage is a special, God-given relationship...that this relationship will be fulfilling when we do as God commands regarding it.  Also, it's important to teach them to not place themselves in situations where they are more likely to sin in this way.

I just read an online story from Christianity Today about a woman who kept herself pure until her wedding day at age 39.  She would set boundaries regarding what to do on a date and talk it over with her (Christian) date so they would not slip into temptation.  She finally met a Christian man who was the "one".  He had previously committed fornication with another woman....he was so guilty about this that he was now willing to wait until marriage.  They have a very happy marriage now.

By the way, I have a single calling....it is possible.

[Soldier4Christ]

Sin is sin, no matter how you try to substantiate it there is no refuting that it is still sin. The Bible is clear on it's teachings on this subject.

[Soldier4Christ]

CWA Says Abstinence Prevents Teen Pregnancy

by Staff


WASHINGTON, (christiansunite.com) -- The National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy (NCPTP) has designated May 2 as National Teen Pregnancy Prevention Day. The NCPTP campaign offers teens all sorts of glitz, products for sale and a quiz designed to inform them about the dangers of teen pregnancy. They also warn teens against the unrealistic expectations of abstinence programs.

"The problem is," says Dr. Janice Shaw Crouse, Director and Senior Fellow of Concerned Women for America's (CWA) Beverly LaHaye Institute, "warnings about abstinence programs fly in the face of their concern about teens' well-being. During the heyday of condom-based programs, the rates of teen sexual activity, teen births and teen abortions grew. With the wider use of abstinence programs, all the trends have reversed direction and are going down. This reversal of trends in teen sexual activity, births and abortions is a remarkable achievement that the NCPTP ought to be celebrating. Further, the successes of the abstinence programs ought to be acknowledged, and teens should be encouraged to commit to abstinence. Could it be that business goals take precedence over the best interest of the teens they are supposed to serve?

"Our culture scoffs at chastity and is shocked to find teenage girls pregnant," Crouse continued. "Programs that teach primarily contraception as a means of prevention largely ignore teaching values. This divorce of values from sexuality leads to a diminished respect for oneself, human life and sexuality in general. Abstinence programs, on the other hand, have been successful in reducing teen pregnancy and abortion as well as sexual activity and provide an opportunity to discuss value-based sexual activity."

Dr. Crouse has just released an important study, "Why the Left is Attacking Abstinence Programs," which uses official government data to track the three trends (teen sexual activity, teen births and teen abortions) to show the dramatic reversal in the trends that coincides with the wider use of abstinence-based programs across the country.

Concerned Women for America is the nation's largest public policy women's organization.

[HimAll4]

Sexual Abstinence = Self Control

Part of the Fruit of the Spirit is self control, right?  I think all of the fruit goes against our sin nature, but with the presence of the Holy Spirit, grace abounds in order to live as a child of God.  If God says the flesh will war with the Spirit, then we should not be surprised that it does, and be armed and ready when this form or any other form of temptation comes along.  We are not perfect, no, but we dare not make excuses for sin or say it's impossible to have victory over sin.  That would be calling God a liar.  IMHO anyway.

[Soldier4Christ]

Those that advocate young marriages are falling into the the trap that is being staged by the secular world. First the age is lowered by 2 years, then it is lowered more and more as the younger ones are indoctrinated into the ways of the world at even younger ages.

An article I just read recently gives us a strong indication of just where this will lead us if churches start advocating marriages at younger ages.

The article gets rather explicit in areas so I have deleted portions of it to make it more suitable for posting here.

As Christians we are to keep ourselves separate from the ways of the world not to join in nor to advocate them.

__________________


Could International Child Sex Laws Affect U.S. Policy?


Written By Sam Kastensmidt

Throughout the Western World, sociologists are seeing trends toward the sexualization of young children. The dismissal of morality and Christian ethics from international law has created a vacuum of absolute standards, which has ushered in an international trend seeking to provide naïve sixth, seventh, and eighth graders with the legal right to consent to sexual relations with adults, making them more attractive targets for adult sexual predators.

Sadly, while these children bear the burden of sexual accountability, much of the world community only reinforces the dangerously false notion that youngsters are capable of maintaining healthy, mature sexual relationships outside the bonds of marriage.

Today, at every turn, America’s children are forced to confront a sexually destructive culture. The various media outlets, including the Internet, movies, television shows, commercials, radio, magazine racks, billboards, fashion trends, news reports, and public school classrooms are crowded with sexual references and risqué images which serve to desensitize young minds to the importance and sanctity of sexual relationships.

Sexual Dangers Facing America’s Children

Along with the risk of disease and pregnancy, America’s children now face a growing threat — a trend toward pedophilia. The United Nations International Children’s Emergency Fund (UNICEF) recently released a report showing that one in five American children who use the Internet regularly are approached by adult strangers seeking a sexual encounter.

In June 2004, the U.S. Department of Education released an in-depth study focusing on the sexual misconduct of public school educators. One survey, conducted with students in grades 8-11 (ages 13-17), discovered that nearly one out of every ten students (9.6 percent) had experienced "educator sexual misconduct that was unwanted." Another Department of Education study claimed that "more than 4.5 million students are subject to sexual misconduct by an employee of a school sometime between kindergarten and 12th grade."

However, rather than strengthening protections for children, some groups have called for eased language in anti-pedophilia laws. In a 1998 edition of the Psychological Bulletin, the American Psychological Association published the “Rind Report,” calling for Congress to abandon terms like “molestation” when referring to the act of sexually abusing a child. Instead, the APA lobbied for more “value-neutral” terms like “adult-child sex,” if the experience was a “willing encounter.”

Global Sexual Age of Consent Continues to Drop

Throughout the international community, there is an unyielding, dangerous trend toward lowering the legal age of sexual consent. By lowering the age of sexual consent, governments not only thrust an enormous burden upon naïve young people, but they also allow society’s sexual predators to prey upon the gullibilities of middle and junior high school students with no criminal repercussions.

Already, several nations (including Denmark, France, Morocco, Sweden, Poland, and the Czech Republic) have established a national sexual age of consent of 15 years of age (ninth grade). According to The Prague Post, Czech Republic Justice Minister Pavel Nemec is now pressing ahead with plans to lower that age to fourteen.

Fourteen-year-olds (eighth-graders) are permitted to offer sexual consent to their elders in Italy, Iceland, Hungary, Austria, and Canada.

In Spain, the sexual age of consent is a mere thirteen years old — 7th graders.

Incredibly, several nations thrust this enormous responsibility on still younger children. Sexual predators are permitted to attain sexual consent from 12-year-old children (6th graders) in Mexico, the Netherlands, Argentina, Chile, and Columbia. Not surprisingly, UNICEF reports that more than 16,000 Mexican children are involved in prostitution.

U.S. Justices Seek to Incorporate International Law

Most people would assume that such alarming trends would cause American jurists and lawmakers to shun any suggestions to incorporate international law with American law. Sadly, we are seeing exactly the opposite.

In 2003, the U.S. Supreme Court relied upon international law to strike down a Texas anti-sodomy statute. Though Supreme Court Justices swear an oath to decide cases based solely on “the Constitution and laws of the United States,” Justice Anthony Kennedy (author of the majority opinion in Lawrence v. Texas) overturned an existing precedent (Bowers v. Hardwick) using international law. In his majority opinion, he argued: “British Parliament recommended in 1957 [the] repeal of laws punishing homosexual conduct.” Later in his decision, Justice Kennedy relied upon “the European Court of Human Rights” and “the European Convention on Human Rights.”

cont'd

[Soldier4Christ]

Justice Kennedy is not alone in his disregard for the U.S. Constitution as the absolute authority in American law. On several occasions, former U.S. Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O’Connor suggested that America must incorporate international law into its decisions. At a keynote speech at Georgetown University, O’Connor told students: “International law is no longer a specialty. It is vital if judges are to faithfully discharge their duties.”

Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg agrees. “Our island or lone-ranger mentality is beginning to change,” adding that the Supreme Court Justices “are becoming more open to comparative and international law perspectives.”

Sadly, Justice Ginsburg does not need prodding from international sources. While serving as an attorney with the ACLU, Ginsburg issued a report calling for the sexual age of consent to be lowered to 12 years old. Her article, “Sex Bias in the U.S. Code,” appeared in the April 1977 Report for the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights. This sitting Supreme Court Justice offered the following recommendation: “Eliminate the phrase ‘carnal knowledge of any female, not his wife, who has not attained the age of 16 years’ and substitute a federal, sex-neutral definition of the offense.”

Ginsburg suggested this as a replacement: “A person is guilty of an offense if he engages in a sexual act with another person… [and if] the other person is, in fact, less than 12 years old.”

Of course, most Americans simply cannot conceive of a day when our country might mirror the pedophiliac licentiousness of the ancient Greeks. Then again, the vast majority of 1950s Americans could have never envisioned a day when America would be engrossed in serious debate over whether to legalize homosexual marriage or allow doctors to stab through a baby's skull as it is being delivered.

Bottom line: If mankind's standard of morality is not fixed upon a higher standard, then the depraved whims of men will continue to lead us toward every conceivable wickedness. Though we fancy to believe that we are too good to ever venture into such dark times, the infallible Word of God tells us, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?"



Sources:

“Addressing the Needs and Rights of Young People at the Policy Level,” The United Nations Population Fund, 2004.
http://www.unfpa.org/adolescents/policy.htm

“Trafficking and Sexual Exploitation,” UNICEF, 2004.
http://www.unicef.org/protection/index_exploitation.html

“Worldwide Ages of Consent,” Avert.org, 2004.
http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm

“Minister Determined to Lower Age of Consent,” The Prague Post, November 25, 2004.
http://www.praguepost.com/P03/2004/Art/1125/news8.php

“Swedish Vets Say Bestiality Bad for Animals,” AVN News, January 29, 2004.
http://www.advocate.com/new_news.asp?ID=11297&sd=02/12/04

Lawrence v. Texas, U.S. Supreme Court, Majority Opinion Written by Justice Anthony Kennedy, June 30, 2003.
http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/pdf/02-102P.ZO

“O’Connor Extols International Law,” FOX News, October 27, 2004.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136839,00.html

“O’Connor Praises International Law,” WorldNetDaily, October 27, 2004.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41143

Frank V. York and Robert H. Knight, “Homosexual Behavior and Pedophilia.”
http://us2000.org/cfmc/Pedophilia.pdf

[Debp]

Those that advocate young marriages are falling into the the trap that is being staged by the secular world. First the age is lowered by 2 years, then it is lowered more and more as the younger ones are indoctrinated into the ways of the world at even younger ages.

An article I just read recently gives us a strong indication of just where this will lead us if churches start advocating marriages at younger ages.

The article gets rather explicit in areas so I have deleted portions of it to make it more suitable for posting here.

As Christians we are to keep ourselves separate from the ways of the world not to join in nor to advocate them.

Amen.  Children are innocent and it is a ploy of the devil to try to corrupt children.  God wants us to be sanctified in body, mind and spirit.  As we walk with the Lord daily, this is possible....and is the way to life and peace.