Rapture........

[twobombs]

Paul2: i'm happy with your work on the Rapture; you are one of the few pre-trib believers that actually comes up with scriptural evidence for his or her stance.

Have you heard the preaching of, for example, David Wilkerson lately ? He takes prophecy for the current state and near future of the USA to a new unheard of level. They can be downloaded here at http://sermons.christiansunite.com

The destruction of Babylon as described in Revelation 18:10 isn't very far away bro; the war that is provoking it's own destruction is now for well over 2 years underway. So when you are right 'we' won't see the destruction of the New Babylon.

You see : the end time Flood talked about in matthew 24 isn't about water, it's about fire..... I know that when I live in 2006, 2007 I will witness its destruction. Listen to what Henry Gruver has to say... really... judgement is coming to America. And honestly; I don't know what to do to warn the people; I don't know what to do when the coastal cities are diminished to ashes. but just listen to the preachings of these men...  This is no yoke; I even pray for A4C to grasp this truth

You see: i'm not argueing with you about pre-trib.  I even give you more rope Matthew 24 talks about the Flood shortly after the Rapture, depicted as Noah entering the Arc just before the Flood.

[musicllover]

  The Church is Raptured BEFORE the 7 year tribulation period. People left behind that become believers will not be part of the Church but Tribulation Saints. The Church is the Bride of Christ, Tribulation Saints will be friends of the bride Groom. The Church has a different destiny than Israel, old testament Saints and Tribulation Saints. Notice the word "Church" is used 19 times in Revelation 1-3 and not mentioned again until after chapter 19- Why? because the church was in Heaven during Daniel's 70th week with is what takes place from chapter 4 through chapter 19. The Church is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, Old testament saints were not and Tribulation Saints will be "led" by the Holy Spirit but not indwelt. The Church has a special destiny, and the Rapture does to things, it ends the Church age and age of Grace, and brings in the 7 years of Tribulation and wrath.

    Anybody wondering about what I write should go back and read all my posts on the subject. I have a thread titled Paul2's Pre-Trib-Rapture pages that give some back ground.

      Musiclover, there are 7 letters in Revelation that serve 3 purposes, not 21 letters. Each letter was first to the Church it was written to, second for the universal Church (all believers of all time periods, third, they are prophetic of the different periods the Church would go through. The Church leaves earth in Chapter 4 of Revelation when the world enters into "the things which must take place here after" read Revealtion 4:1. This is my favorite subject and i've spent 13 years reseaching it. The more I study it the more evidence of Pre-Tribulation Rapture I find, never anything that makes a case for mid or post Trib. Rapture.

     I've been busy lately but I'll answer any questions that I'm asked. You'll never understand the book of Revelation if you don't understand Revelation 1:19, once you understand that the rest gets easy and perfectly logical. Revelation is one of the most organized books in the Bible once you understand the format it was written in.

                                            The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2

....there are 7 letters in Revelation that serve 3 purposes,........

YEP YEP, that is what I thought you meant but wanted to make sure. It doesnt' hurt to clearify.
     I totally agree, the teaching that the church isn't mentioned in the 70th week of Daniel/Rev/  or during the Tribulations.
     How do you understand those who survive tribulations will be saved,( Meanig anyone who survive with out the mark or who don't deny Christ). Will they see Judgement with out having died?
    I SHUDDER to think about what they must live thru or how they survive.
     I understand that those who recieve the mark are doomed eventually they know the truth,there is not going back once the mark has been taken. Not even death will come to relieve them of the agony here on earth. What kind of spiritual pain they must feel for having denied Christ and having NO way out. I can't even imagine......hell is worse.  If I am understanding this all correctly.
      So here is the problem with the way some believe.....its a very big pill to swallow, loving God, forgiving God to the wrath of God........Doesn't this have something to do with the fact that the Church is gone, the restrainer or Holy Spirit is gone, Jesus is no longer sitting on the right side of GOd interdeeding on our behalf.  The CHURCH is gone period.
        to be for warned, some laugh and mock the idea of a Rapture. Some say its all past or not scriptural.....I am concerned for you. Stubborness, or maybe you just don't see the scriptrual proof, what ever it is...once these things take place you will know then......
DON'T TAKE THE MARK......... die if you must, if you miss the rapture dont take the mark.  If you take it to supposably save yourself, you've sold your soul to the devil, the scriptures tell us there will come a time when not even death can relaease you from the misery here on earth. Screaming out for mercy......there is none left, its gone. The chruch age has ended and the wrath of God has come to those who waited to long or never believed.
  I have a burdend to share this news, we all need to prepare, like the virgins, to be ready. But like the wise virgins a time is coming that not even they shared the oil they had. Can you all see that the CHurch will be gone, the rapture removes the buffer, the restrainer, the peace, the Holy Spirit........Lord have mercy.......sigh  

[Paul2]

   I copied an old post that is worthy of furthur study and I hate to see it buried in the back pages so take a close look at this:

     2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 is a favorite of Pre-Trib. bashers. They miss the "DAY OF CHRIST" and try to replace it with the Rapture. The "Day of Christ" is the "Wrath of the Lamb."

Lets get some background. Paul was in Thessalonica for 3 weeks and started a Church there. He sent the Church a letter known as 1 Thessalonians. He revealed to the Thessalonians the Rapture. That was the focal point of the 1st. letter.

    Paul got word that the Thessalonians were being confused by false reports being sent to them claiming that they had missed the Rapture and had entered the Day of Christ, the wrath of the Lamb, the Great Tribulation.

    Paul sends another letter to clear up the situation.

2 Thessalonians 2:1  "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


    The Thessalonians were taught all about the Rapture and what was to follow. Verse 5 "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?" confirms this. They received a false report claiming they had entered the Wrath of the Lamb, which is also called the Day of Christ, which is also called the Great Tribulation. They knew the Rapture was to take place first and assumed they had missed the Rapture. They were told they had entered the Great Tribulation which is the last half of the 70th week of Daniel.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3  "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

    for that day shall not come What day shall not come? The Day of Christ, the Wrath of the Lamb, the Great tribulation. This is the day Paul is focusing on. Paul is focusing on the Day of the Wrath of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. Paul is not talking about the Rapture but the Wrath Of Christ.

    Paul is telling them that the wrath of Christ won't come until the man of sin be revealed (Antichrist). He's assuring them the wrath of the Lamb, Jesus Christ has not come yet.

2 Thessalonians 2:4  "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

      Now Paul tells them Antichrist is to be revealed. We know Antichrist signs the treaty with Israel to start the 70th week of Daniel, 1260 days later he is sitting in the temple claiming to be God. The Wrath of Christ can't begin until Antichrist enters the temple which he will do in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.

2 Thessalonians 2:5  "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

    Paul reminds them that he had explained this before, and to beware of false messages supposedly from Paul contradicting what he had already taught them. In other words "Believe what I taught you in the first place, don't believe reports that claim you missed the Rapture and The Day of the Lambs wrath has come, The Day of Wrath can't begin until Antichrist is revealed at the signing of the seven year treaty and in the temple claiming to be God 1260 days later.

2 Thessalonians 2:6  "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
  7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.8: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


    Now Paul is telling them that Antichrist is restrained and not revealed until the restrainer is removed. The restrainer is the Holy Spirit indwelling the Church. We are restraining Antichrist with the presence of the Holy Spirit indwelling us. At the Rapture the Holy Spirit will stop indwelling men and begin a different ministry of indwelling the two witnesses. When the Church is Raptured, Antichrist will be revealed and not until the Rapture.

    The "falling away" can be taken two ways, back sliding, and removal. I plan on falling away from earth to meet the Lord in the air.

2 Thessalonians 2:9  "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
  10: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
"

    Antichrist is part of Gods judgment. A part of the wrath of the Lamb is allowing Antichrist to perform miracles for 42 months, the last half of Daniels 70th week. When God is sending delusions to believe lies your in the wrath of the Lamb.

    Summing it up, the Rapture is the focal point of
1 Thessalonians. The day of Christ, wrath of the Lamb, Great Tribulation is the focal point of 2 Thessalonians.

                                          The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2
   

[LoggedintoJesus]

Thanks musicllover for the nice welcome!

When I hear the promises of the Gospel of the kingdom.
Then I must conclude all that partake of the Gospel must be together because the result of believing the Gospel is one.
So whosoever believes in Jesus Christ the Lord, Jew or Gentile is in Christ. Which is His body the church. Sealed until the day of redemption.
There is no other gospel, which would be needed to have another body of believers. No where in the bible is two gospels ever mentioned ,rather only one.
One God, one faith, one baptism, one Gospel ,one kingdom, one household of God,one Israel, one church. they are all inclusive. In the kingdom of God.

So how can we say that those saints in the tribulation are not members of the body of Christ, which is the church?

There would have to be another way to God, another gospel, and that is totally  impossible according to the Bible.

So all are one in one God.

I know it sounds really simple, but thats the way I believe the bible has it.  Makes good sense too, because they are all together in the end . May God Bless you as you Ponder this!

      I understand what your saying, but I've never thought about tribulation saints being a part of any other body of believers. All in all they are still a part of the original body if here or in Heaven. This is a new concept for me, that is why I am asking for scripture. I agree that that as in Eph we are one body, one baptism ect ect.  
        Explain how you believe that tribulation would seperate the boby? Or maybe it would be the pre trib rapture that seperates us. And I can pray and study, possilbe understand where you are coming from.
      RICH blessing to the believers of Jesus CHrist this beautiful day.
 
         

Musicllover hello! I do not believe anything can divide the 1 body of Christ, and that all that believe in Christ are in the 1 body.pre or post trib = 1body.
But many pre tribbers believe that at the pretrib rapture the body of Christ is complete.And those saved in the  trib are not of the church which is the 1 body. But then if that were true then another gospel would be needed, and that is not possible.Some think that the old covenant will be reinstated and Jews will get saved too, this is not possible either.
Only 1 Gospel for ever , only 1 way Jesus for Jew first and Gentile.
I dont know what you believe ,but this argument puts a rather large hole in Pre trib rapture theory.
God Bless !!!

[Paul2]

Musicllover hello! I do not believe anything can divide the 1 body of Christ, and that all that believe in Christ are in the 1 body.pre or post trib = 1body.
But many pre tribbers believe that at the pretrib rapture the body of Christ is complete.And those saved in the  trib are not of the church which is the 1 body. But then if that were true then another gospel would be needed, and that is not possible.Some think that the old covenant will be reinstated and Jews will get saved too, this is not possible either.
Only 1 Gospel for ever , only 1 way Jesus for Jew first and Gentile.
I dont know what you believe ,but this argument puts a rather large hole in Pre trib rapture theory.
God Bless !!!

    The answer to this is found in Romans 11.

Romans 11: 25: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
   26: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
   27: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
   28: As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

   Israel will not see clearly until the FULNESS or completeness of the gentiles be come in. Come into what? the Church making it full and complete. Old testament Saints are not part of the Church, they were before the Church began, Tribulation Saints are not part of the Church, the Church was complete and full of all the gentiles that would be part of it at the Rapture. Tribulation Saints won't believe until after the Rapture. The Church believes without having to "see" to believe, the Tribulation Saints won't believe until they see it with their own eyes, what will they see to convince them? The Rapture of the Church is the event that will convince them but its to late at that point to be part of the Church, which will be in heaven during daniel's 70th week.

[musicllover]

Thanks musicllover for the nice welcome!

When I hear the promises of the Gospel of the kingdom.
Then I must conclude all that partake of the Gospel must be together because the result of believing the Gospel is one.
So whosoever believes in Jesus Christ the Lord, Jew or Gentile is in Christ. Which is His body the church. Sealed until the day of redemption.
There is no other gospel, which would be needed to have another body of believers. No where in the bible is two gospels ever mentioned ,rather only one.
One God, one faith, one baptism, one Gospel ,one kingdom, one household of God,one Israel, one church. they are all inclusive. In the kingdom of God.

So how can we say that those saints in the tribulation are not members of the body of Christ, which is the church?

There would have to be another way to God, another gospel, and that is totally  impossible according to the Bible.

So all are one in one God.

I know it sounds really simple, but thats the way I believe the bible has it.  Makes good sense too, because they are all together in the end . May God Bless you as you Ponder this!

      I understand what your saying, but I've never thought about tribulation saints being a part of any other body of believers. All in all they are still a part of the original body if here or in Heaven. This is a new concept for me, that is why I am asking for scripture. I agree that that as in Eph we are one body, one baptism ect ect.  
        Explain how you believe that tribulation would seperate the boby? Or maybe it would be the pre trib rapture that seperates us. And I can pray and study, possilbe understand where you are coming from.
      RICH blessing to the believers of Jesus CHrist this beautiful day.
 
         

Musicllover hello! I do not believe anything can divide the 1 body of Christ, and that all that believe in Christ are in the 1 body.pre or post trib = 1body.
But many pre tribbers believe that at the pretrib rapture the body of Christ is complete.And those saved in the  trib are not of the church which is the 1 body. But then if that were true then another gospel would be needed, and that is not possible.Some think that the old covenant will be reinstated and Jews will get saved too, this is not possible either.
Only 1 Gospel for ever , only 1 way Jesus for Jew first and Gentile.

God Bless !!!

You said........I dont know what you believe ,but this argument puts a rather large hole in Pre trib rapture theory.....

        Only if you believe that there are 2 bodies, I don't believe there is any diff in the before or after saints. Those taken up with Jesus, then some will die during trib, some will live thru. I'm not sure if I am following you correctly.  Like I said earlier I don't see how a "rapture" would seperate the body of believers? If you belong to Christ, before then you'll be raptured up to meet Jesus in the air, and that is it...... there is no one saved from that point on, I'm not sure I would agree with that teaching, I need to study more, but at the moment I believe if you become a "tribulation saint, your saved to be with Jesus.  If you live thru the time of tribulations then I would think God would still honor your sincerity.......that being those who have truly asked and recieved. I have just never heard of this teaching before, so its new to me.  A scripture from John 10, Jesus talks about the sheep pen, and the sheep know the shepards voice and will follow only his voice. And that there are "other Sheep, that are not of this pen..." Jesus is the gate, the only way to Heaven, as the sheep know his voice. NO one who knows Jesus voice will be left behind.
    I do believe that Jews do come to know who Jesus and are saved, not because of any restoring of the old testement convent. For a very short while a treaty is set up with Isreal, and animal sacrifices do begin again. The anit Christ breaks the treaty, abominations spoken about. .
     But other than you "opinon" what script do you have to support yourself.
Rich blessings

[twobombs]

Hey Paul2,

It accidentaly found more stuff about the the pre-trib rapture, are you praying for me ?

Let me cut-n-paste :
http://www.bycovenant.com/feast6.html

The number two in the Word speaks of testimony, the number of witness. The prophet Joel also peaks of two separate trumpets in chapter 2 verse 1 and verse 15 of his book.

* 1. "Blow the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in My holy mountain". ……. 2. "Blow the trumpet in Zion, Consecrate a fast, call a Sacred assembly".

The first, the call of "alarm" prophetically speaks of Israel's ingathering to Zion, Jerusalem, which occurred in 1967. The second blowing, a "call for the sacred or solemn assembly" is for the faithful in Messiah Y'Shua, as we will discover.

Fulfillment of the 5th feast, the "feast of the Blowing of the Trumpets", prophetically represents the "catching away" of the faithful.

* "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God … we, which are alive and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord". 1Thess 4:16-17.

Israel has been re-established upon the mountains of Israel in 1948, briefly to Jerusalem in 1967. The first trumpet has been fulfilled. There is no doubt that the second trumpet of the feast speaks of the catching away of the faithful This will be fulfilled soon, in this the "generation to come" or as it is written in the Hebrew, mmwy tyrha - "Acharit Acharon" which literally means "the Last Generation". (Psalm 102:19, Matthew 24:34).

It is important to note that there are eight days between the feasts of Trumpets and the Day of Atonement. This time signifies the time from the catching away of the faithful, the Bride, and the 2nd Coming. The seven-year Great Tribulation will commence the day after the feast of Trumpets when the Bride has been taken away "to be with the Lord". Your question may be at this time, "Why then are there eight days and not seven days between these feasts?" The answer to part one of these questions is this. 1. It is important to realize that eight in Scriptural numerals means, "a new beginning" and "life" as we have learned from the Chai back in Passover. Thus, these eight days are a time of reflection and of repentance. The Lord’s "Two Witness" and the 144,000 redeemed of the House of Israel, (Revelation 7:4), will bring millions into a new "beginning" with the gift of "life eternal", as Y’Shua becomes Lord of their lives. The days between the two feasts (see note) are called by Israel the "ten days of repentance". Again, a perfect picture of the Tribulation time, as indeed many of Israel and the Gentiles will repent during that time. 2. Part two of the answer is. There are indeed seven days shown between the beginning of the Tribulation to the day prior The Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur. The following note will explain this.

Note: - Israel includes the feast day of Trumpets, as day one, and the Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur as day 10. However, between the two actual feasts there are eight days. However, as the Tribulation will commence the day after Trumpets, a Sabbath day, with the Bride taken away, this means there are now seven days between that day and Yom Kippur, representing the week, or seven-years of antichrist, the beast.


_______

I find this amazing....  I have been soooo reluctant to accept the pre-trib view, but the stuff above is very, very compelling to say the least....

[LoggedintoJesus]

Thanks musicllover for the nice welcome!

When I hear the promises of the Gospel of the kingdom.
Then I must conclude all that partake of the Gospel must be together because the result of believing the Gospel is one.
So whosoever believes in Jesus Christ the Lord, Jew or Gentile is in Christ. Which is His body the church. Sealed until the day of redemption.
There is no other gospel, which would be needed to have another body of believers. No where in the bible is two gospels ever mentioned ,rather only one.
One God, one faith, one baptism, one Gospel ,one kingdom, one household of God,one Israel, one church. they are all inclusive. In the kingdom of God.

So how can we say that those saints in the tribulation are not members of the body of Christ, which is the church?

There would have to be another way to God, another gospel, and that is totally  impossible according to the Bible.

So all are one in one God.

I know it sounds really simple, but thats the way I believe the bible has it.  Makes good sense too, because they are all together in the end . May God Bless you as you Ponder this!

      I understand what your saying, but I've never thought about tribulation saints being a part of any other body of believers. All in all they are still a part of the original body if here or in Heaven. This is a new concept for me, that is why I am asking for scripture. I agree that that as in Eph we are one body, one baptism ect ect.  
        Explain how you believe that tribulation would seperate the boby? Or maybe it would be the pre trib rapture that seperates us. And I can pray and study, possilbe understand where you are coming from.
      RICH blessing to the believers of Jesus CHrist this beautiful day.
 
         

Musicllover hello! I do not believe anything can divide the 1 body of Christ, and that all that believe in Christ are in the 1 body.pre or post trib = 1body.
But many pre tribbers believe that at the pretrib rapture the body of Christ is complete.And those saved in the  trib are not of the church which is the 1 body. But then if that were true then another gospel would be needed, and that is not possible.Some think that the old covenant will be reinstated and Jews will get saved too, this is not possible either.
Only 1 Gospel for ever , only 1 way Jesus for Jew first and Gentile.

God Bless !!!

You said........I dont know what you believe ,but this argument puts a rather large hole in Pre trib rapture theory.....

        Only if you believe that there are 2 bodies, I don't believe there is any diff in the before or after saints. Those taken up with Jesus, then some will die during trib, some will live thru. I'm not sure if I am following you correctly.  Like I said earlier I don't see how a "rapture" would seperate the body of believers? If you belong to Christ, before then you'll be raptured up to meet Jesus in the air, and that is it...... there is no one saved from that point on, I'm not sure I would agree with that teaching, I need to study more, but at the moment I believe if you become a "tribulation saint, your saved to be with Jesus.  If you live thru the time of tribulations then I would think God would still honor your sincerity.......that being those who have truly asked and recieved. I have just never heard of this teaching before, so its new to me.  A scripture from John 10, Jesus talks about the sheep pen, and the sheep know the shepards voice and will follow only his voice. And that there are "other Sheep, that are not of this pen..." Jesus is the gate, the only way to Heaven, as the sheep know his voice. NO one who knows Jesus voice will be left behind.
    I do believe that Jews do come to know who Jesus and are saved, not because of any restoring of the old testement convent. For a very short while a treaty is set up with Isreal, and animal sacrifices do begin again. The anit Christ breaks the treaty, abominations spoken about. .
     But other than you "opinon" what script do you have to support yourself.
Rich blessings

A few scriptures that state that Christ is for all and the Gospel,which would exclude all other ways to God, what ever they are.

romans 5 v18, romans 8 v16-23  romans  9 v 27 - 33 romans 10 v 12- 21  Romans 16 v27
1 cor v18,24  1cor 2v 11  1 cor 15 v22-28  2cor 5 v14-19  galatans 1 v 7,8,9 gal 3 v 26-29   gal 6 v 15,16,17
Eph 1v10  eph 1 v 21,22,23  eph 3v21    eph 4 v 4,5,6  Col1 v13-20   col 2 v10    2 thess 1 v 8  hebrews 1v2,3  heb 7v17  heb 12 v22,23   1 peter v11    1peter v1v25   1peter 2v4-9   ipeter 4 v 6  1 John 2 v1,2 ,3,4  1 John  2 v 22,23  1John 5v10,11,12,13   2 John v7,8,9,10    jude v 3

[Brother Love]

THIS IS A RECORDING:

THE RAPTURE CAME AT 12:00 A.M.

IF YOUR READING THIS, YOU HAVE BEEN LEFT BEHIND WITH TWOBOMBS  

Brother Love  

[musicllover]

     But other than you "opinon" what script do you have to support yourself.
Rich blessings

A few scriptures that state that Christ is for all and the Gospel,which would exclude all other ways to God, what ever they are.

romans 5 v18, romans 8 v16-23  romans  9 v 27 - 33 romans 10 v 12- 21  Romans 16 v27
1 cor v18,24  1cor 2v 11  1 cor 15 v22-28  2cor 5 v14-19  galatans 1 v 7,8,9 gal 3 v 26-29   gal 6 v 15,16,17
Eph 1v10  eph 1 v 21,22,23  eph 3v21    eph 4 v 4,5,6  Col1 v13-20   col 2 v10    2 thess 1 v 8  hebrews 1v2,3  heb 7v17  heb 12 v22,23   1 peter v11    1peter v1v25   1peter 2v4-9   ipeter 4 v 6  1 John 2 v1,2 ,3,4  1 John  2 v 22,23  1John 5v10,11,12,13   2 John v7,8,9,10    jude v 3

Long.......,
                I have made a copy of the scriptures you've offered, I hope to get some time to check them out. Thanks for sharing. I am swamped with homework. And my brain is already working 24/7 with algebra........The scriptures says Godwon't give us more than we can bear right.......so algebra will not get me down, algebra will NOT win, I will conquer Algebra...........
Hope to get back with you before the rapture.....

[LoggedintoJesus]

Getting raptured would just make my day ! so lets go Im ready.If it was so easy !!!

[twobombs]

You don't have to 'do' anything for it; just to sit this one out

But nobody is going to say to me that the Father of time hasn't ordained a day as fullfulment of His Feast (remember matthew? enter into the feast) and also at the end of an era (,atthew again: when you see these things...), in that there is a day and an hour for for the Rapture, just as there is a day and an hour for everything that happend under the sun.

[LoggedintoJesus]

I believe !  The Day of the lord shall come as a thief in the night.1 thessalonians 5 v2

[LoggedintoJesus]

I believe!  Rev 22 v12  And behold , I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

[LoggedintoJesus]

I believe that Isreal will see the One that they pierced when the fulness of the Gentiles is come in , as  Paul2 mentioned, but that is the second coming when every eye shall see Him. There is no secert rapture. as pretribbers think.

Musicllover hello! I do not believe anything can divide the 1 body of Christ, and that all that believe in Christ are in the 1 body.pre or post trib = 1body.
But many pre tribbers believe that at the pretrib rapture the body of Christ is complete.And those saved in the  trib are not of the church which is the 1 body. But then if that were true then another gospel would be needed, and that is not possible.Some think that the old covenant will be reinstated and Jews will get saved too, this is not possible either.
Only 1 Gospel for ever , only 1 way Jesus for Jew first and Gentile.
I dont know what you believe ,but this argument puts a rather large hole in Pre trib rapture theory.
God Bless !!!

    The answer to this is found in Romans 11.

Romans 11: 25: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
   26: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
   27: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
   28: As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

   Israel will not see clearly until the FULNESS or completeness of the gentiles be come in. Come into what? the Church making it full and complete. Old testament Saints are not part of the Church, they were before the Church began, Tribulation Saints are not part of the Church, the Church was complete and full of all the gentiles that would be part of it at the Rapture. Tribulation Saints won't believe until after the Rapture. The Church believes without having to "see" to believe, the Tribulation Saints won't believe until they see it with their own eyes, what will they see to convince them? The Rapture of the Church is the event that will convince them but its to late at that point to be part of the Church, which will be in heaven during daniel's 70th week.