Rapture........

[Paul2]

     To solve the "mystery" of the Rapture requires extensive study of "all" prophetic scriptures. Many people don't take the time to compare all prophetic scriptures against each other to get the complete picture. Pre-Tribulation Rapture requires the most study because when all Scriptures are pieced together that is the "picture" that emerges. If you miss a few details you will end up being a mid. Tribulation Rapture believer, miss more details and you'll end up a post tribulation believer.

    Heres an example. The two witnesses of Revelation 11 are a clue to the timing of the Rapture of the church. Why? I'll explain... In Revelation 1:20 we are told the "mystery" of the seven candlesticks, that they represent the church.

Revelation 1:20 "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

     Now lets look at the "key" verse in the book of Revelation, miss this verse and its meaning and you will miss the mystery, and come to a false conclusion. The most important verse to understanding the book of Revelation is 1:19, read the verse below and then I'll explain why it is so important.

Revelation 1:19  "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;"

    John is given a format to follow and we are given a format to follow to understand the book. John is told to "write the things thou hast seen", what had John seen you might ask? John saw the vision of Jesus Christ (Rev.1:10-18). This is "PAST TENSE", he was told to write what he had already seen. Next he is told to write "the things which are" which is "PRESENT TENSE". The "things which are" encompass the seven letters to the Seven Churches. The "things which are" refer to the church age, in the "present tense." The seven letters are three fold in meaning.

   First, they are seven real letters to seven real churches in Asia at the time of John's writing and applied directly to the church each was addressed to.

   Second, they are seven letters to the universal Church, in other words they apply to every believer throughout the entire church age.

   Third, they are seven prophetic letters to seven distinct church ages or periods the church would go through.

   These seven letters encompass the age of the church on earth and we are still in the "PRESENT TENSE" period of time that is "the things which are". There are 2 church periods active now in the time we live in and they are Philidelphia, the true church on earth now, and Laodicea, the false church on earth now. They continue on simaltaneously until the Rapture seperates them and concludes the Church age. Philidelphia has the open door of heaven and is Raptured, Laodicea is vomited out of the body of christ because it could not be "digested" by the body of Christ because of false doctrine.

   When the Church age ends with the Rapture it will also end the period known as the "things which are", Present Tense" and be followed by "the things which shall be hereafter;" FUTURE TENSE.

   Revelation Chapter 4 begins with John hearing the voice of Jesus, sounding like a trumpet calling him to heaven. It is also the timing of the Rapture of the Church ending the period of the church on earth and the age of Grace.

 Revelation 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.From chapter 4 on the church is no longer on earth, it is "Future tense".

Revelation 11 3: And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
   4: These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

    During the time period of the two witnesses preaching, they are the only candlesticks on earth, the seven candlesticks that represented the Church are now gone from earth into heaven and the two witnesses are the "Future representatives of God on earth.
 
     The ministry of the two witnesses begins at the signing of the covenant between Israel and Antichrist backed by ten nations, which starts the 70th week of Daniel. Their ministry ends with their deaths by Antichrist at the "Mid Week", 1260 days after the treaty was signed. Antichrist then reigns for 42 months, 1260 days from the "Mid Week to the end of the 70th week, and the Second Coming of Christ to the earth to establish His Kingdom. Put it all together and Pre-Tribulation Rapture is established.

                                        The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2

   

[musicllover]

    To solve the "mystery" of the Rapture requires extensive study of "all" prophetic scriptures. Many people don't take the time to compare all prophetic scriptures against each other to get the complete picture. Pre-Tribulation Rapture requires the most study because when all Scriptures are pieced together that is the "picture" that emerges. If you miss a few details you will end up being a mid. Tribulation Rapture believer, miss more details and you'll end up a post tribulation believer.

    Heres an example. The two witnesses of Revelation 11 are a clue to the timing of the Rapture of the church. Why? I'll explain... In Revelation 1:20 we are told the "mystery" of the seven candlesticks, that they represent the church.

Revelation 1:20 "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

     Now lets look at the "key" verse in the book of Revelation, miss this verse and its meaning and you will miss the mystery, and come to a false conclusion. The most important verse to understanding the book of Revelation is 1:19, read the verse below and then I'll explain why it is so important.

Revelation 1:19  "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;"

    John is given a format to follow and we are given a format to follow to understand the book. John is told to "write the things thou hast seen", what had John seen you might ask? John saw the vision of Jesus Christ (Rev.1:10-18). This is "PAST TENSE", he was told to write what he had already seen. Next he is told to write "the things which are" which is "PRESENT TENSE". The "things which are" encompass the seven letters to the Seven Churches. The "things which are" refer to the church age, in the "present tense." The seven letters are three fold in meaning.

   First, they are seven real letters to seven real churches in Asia at the time of John's writing and applied directly to the church each was addressed to.

   Second, they are seven letters to the universal Church, in other words they apply to every believer throughout the entire church age.

   Third, they are seven prophetic letters to seven distinct church ages or periods the church would go through.

   These seven letters encompass the age of the church on earth and we are still in the "PRESENT TENSE" period of time that is "the things which are". There are 2 church periods active now in the time we live in and they are Philidelphia, the true church on earth now, and Laodicea, the false church on earth now. They continue on simaltaneously until the Rapture seperates them and concludes the Church age. Philidelphia has the open door of heaven and is Raptured, Laodicea is vomited out of the body of christ because it could not be "digested" by the body of Christ because of false doctrine.

   When the Church age ends with the Rapture it will also end the period known as the "things which are", Present Tense" and be followed by "the things which shall be hereafter;" FUTURE TENSE.

   Revelation Chapter 4 begins with John hearing the voice of Jesus, sounding like a trumpet calling him to heaven. It is also the timing of the Rapture of the Church ending the period of the church on earth and the age of Grace.

 Revelation 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.From chapter 4 on the church is no longer on earth, it is "Future tense".

Revelation 11 3: And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
   4: These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

    During the time period of the two witnesses preaching, they are the only candlesticks on earth, the seven candlesticks that represented the Church are now gone from earth into heaven and the two witnesses are the "Future representatives of God on earth.
 
     The ministry of the two witnesses begins at the signing of the covenant between Israel and Antichrist backed by ten nations, which starts the 70th week of Daniel. Their ministry ends with their deaths by Antichrist at the "Mid Week", 1260 days after the treaty was signed. Antichrist then reigns for 42 months, 1260 days from the "Mid Week to the end of the 70th week, and the Second Coming of Christ to the earth to establish His Kingdom. Put it all together and Pre-Tribulation Rapture is established.

                                        The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2

Paul2,
          I have to agree with how you understand the rapture. I have studied, and read books, followed scripture and still you must know how to read it all, but it together, for me there isn't alot of diff ways you can read the rapture? I've also read the end times series. Which are a great way to introduce the subject like to my kids. We also have the movies. Althought fiction there is some fact that make my kids ask the questions. That is why I am wondering about the pre trib and mid trib rapture. my own personal belief is a pre trib rapture, but I do wonder about the mid trib bliefs, could there be both?  
    Do you have an opinion on if there is both a pre and mid, and what of those who believe in a rapture to begin with, will it make any diff if we believe in a diff time table?
  The rapture is the personal and bodily removal of the Church by Jesus Christ. I think Revelations scares people, we all seem to understand that Revlations is the END so to speak, many find it a difficult read, the symbolic speech, its real hard to completly understand it. MOST defiatnly it need to be read, and researched. As a majority teaching it appears that the PRE trib rapture is the most often taught. That in itself could speak alone, but for me, I was still  a sceptic, and its was easy to confuse the rapture, and the second coming of Christ, and the resurerrections  ect ect ect..SO for the layman such as myself I did my own reading and found that I believed as most of the sholars did, in a pre trib ratpure, its the only way it could all fit together. I read thru Revlations and some I did understand most I didn't. BUT with the back bone of Daniel, Isa, Thes, all the other books I began to make a complete picture. SO I usually Begin Reading in 1 Thes 4:13. DO all the cross referencing and reading the old with the new Testaments. My concern now is for so, my children. There is a measure of hope that there is a mid trib ratpure those who have been taught but have not made that comittment. I have 6 beautiful children, one a foster son who is only 4 yr old. I've done my best, and still feel as tho I should have done more for the first 5. But that little one, So its important to me, that he be taught wisely and with Godly understanding. I was mostly curious how most felt about the rapture as a true teaching, and how some might understand it the diff times it could occur.
    thank you for your understanding, and your teachings. I couldnt' agree more with you.





 
 
 


 

[Paul2]

     There is only one Rapture for the true Church. Read the letter to Laodicea to see the fate of the false Church. They are vomited out of the body of Christ. Jesus is outside and knocking on the outer door of this "church" asking to be let in. This group believe they are saved but are not do to doctrinal error. The fate of the Laodicean Church is to be vomited out of the true church at the Rapture and to become the Harlot of Revelation 17.

     Salvation is through faith and belief, but when faith is closely analized flaws may appear.

    Many cults believe "in Jesus" but when details are examined, the "Jesus" they believe in is not the same JESUS of the Bible.

                    JESUS of the Bible

  1. Born of a virgin- deny this and you have a different Jesus
  2.Worker of Miracles- deny this ...different Jesus
  3 Committed NO sin- deny this ...different Jesus
  4 Jesus is Deity, 2nd person of the God Head Trinity.
  5 Died for the sins of man
  6 Jesus rose BODILY from the grave
  7 Jesus is coming back

   Now cults and "isms" deny one or more of those "facts"
   Mormons believe Jesus is the Spirit brother of Lucifer...different Jesus. Jehovah's witnesses deny Deity.

How much can a person deny about the true Jesus Christ
becomes the Paramount Question!

     Can you "get away" with arguing against the truth of His word? What if for years you misinterpreted scripture, openly attacked His true Word and its meaning but believed you were right? I don't believe you can deny any of the 7 things I numbered and "get away" with it because those beliefs determine whether Jesus is qualified to Save you. I think you must understand WHO Jesus is (GOD) to be Saved by Him.

     But what about prophecy for instance, somebodies wrong, If Pre-Trib. Rapture is Jesus plan and I see it correctly, evryone who opposes the view must be wrong. Same goes for me if Pre. Trib. Rapture is not the truth. Somebodies going to be in trouble for arguing against the truth of the Word of God.

    It is written, not many of you should be teachers for you will be judged more severly,  paraphasing for time sake.

    How much false assumption about Jesus can a person "get away with" before Salvation is affected. How many lies will Jesus tolarate about himself?

    What about those little details, like the "length of His hair", did he have a beard or not, he did by the way. People will argue about many little details. Recently been in a debate about hair length because I revealed that I have a ponytail, because I believe Jesus had one from the Shroud of Turin which I believe was His burial shroud.

    Wish I knew the Answers to all these questions, but I don't and nobody knows for sure except God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

    To be on the safe side becareful!

                                           the Pre. Trib. View by Paul2

[musicllover]

Paul2 said.......
        ...Wish I knew the Answers to all these questions, but I don't and nobody knows for sure except God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

    To be on the safe side becareful!.....

I've often wonder about this very thing. My brother a few years back found great comfort in a certain faith, that I totally and completely disagreed with. When he begin to try to convince me and my mom, my kids ect ect......I come about with my own defense of the Jesus that I understood. AND MOST defiantly Jesus and Satan were NOT spirit borthers. Funny how he'd not heard that teaching from his so called, missionaries who came each week.  How much truth is told before that one lie ...........that is the real scarey part. They can be going along with scripture and then they'll slip in a few item that might not seem important, but in reality,  ANYTHING diff that what scripture teaches is wrong.  The big debate over the rapture is a good example. There is so much at stake. I would NEVER intentionanly teach error, its too a important. BUT believing in A rapture weather pre mid or post.......? I pray that timing doesn't make a difference. As long as your heart belongs to Jesus. The right Jesus I might add. I do find that I can get undiplomatic when it come to 2 things.......one teaching  a diff Jesus that the scriptures tells us, and teaching that "my church" is the only way to Heaven, completely leaving Jesus out of it.....gggrrrr. That erks me to NO end.
      I am confused on this "secret" that some say is the pre trib rapture. I don't see it as secret, this McDonnel women spoken about in the first post of this thread, was a misinformed women or who ever wrote the vision down or something, ANY vision contray to the word is not of God. So I would like to clear up that little misunderstanding. A PRE TRIB RAPTURE isn't NOT secret.
       Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from the heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God......
       Horse sense would tell me that the voice of God with a shout, and voice of an archangel, would be heard pretty loud and clear, not to mention a trumpet of God. Heard  by those who are dead, and those alive in Christ to begin with. SO already this "sceret" is against the word, so that makes it bogus, null and void to the the truth. SO do we throw the WHOLE idea of rapture out the window? DO we look and find for ourselves, with prayer and study.... the truth is there is a rapture, the falseness in the secret that was suggested.......don't throw out the baby with the bathwater anology.
      It makes perfect sense to take a measure of the truth, and add a little more to it, as I said earlier. Some truth has to be told, or NO ONE would listen to begin with. Does that make sense. IT take widson and vigilance to hold on to the truth, and seems more so these days. We would all be wise to check out any teachings we hear to the word. I pray that we can do that here.  I'm placing the scripture I use for those who want to do just that.
       1 Thes 4:13, even Titus 2;13 speaks about Jesus return and the removal of the dead and those alive in Christ. what I call the rapture. Before the 7 yr tribulation.
  Who is the church found in
Jonh 14:1-3, 1 Cor. 15:51-53, and 1Thes. 4:15-5:11, more in 1 Cor. 3:11-15, 2 Cor 5:10.
      Tribulation judgements, ect ect are taught  John 14:1-3, 1 Thes 4:13-18,  Jer 30:7, Dan 9:24-27, and Dan 12:1, 2Thes 2:7-12, Rev. 16.  Matt 24:15-31, Matt 25:31-46 and 2 Thes 2:7-12. This does include the 70th week spoken about in Daniel.
   Cross reference, flip back and forth, Rev, Daniel, ect ect. You will begin to make sense, but you have to be presistant and prayerful.
       More scripture teaching about the millennial reign. But as a layman on this subject I find that for NOW, that I keep these two seperate until I fully understand the rapture, tribulations ect ect. They are easly confused for me.
 OK maybe I can get some sleep now.
Gods riches blessing to you all.
       
       

[twobombs]

Tnx, Paul2 and musiclover

i'll read it *very* close the coming days and maybe even come up with an answer

[musicllover]

Tnx, Paul2 and musiclover

i'll read it *very* close the coming days and maybe even come up with an answer

No hurry towtombs, to be on the safe side, I'm going to be ready when ever it happens. But appreciate your efforts.

[Paul2]

   The Rapture is NOT a SECRET, the Rapture is a MYSTERY, that can be solved by being a detective and analizing ALL the evidence. Lazy detectives that ignore key pieces of evidence end up with false conclusions. The truth is hidden from those who do not seek the truth. God didn't want the whole word to understand His plan, but only those of the Church to understand His perfect plan. The world will be tricked by Antichrist and that is part of Gods wrath. We Christians are supposed to search diligently for the truth that has been hidden in the word for us to find. God keeps His plans secret from some as the prophets didn't even understand all the details of the prophecies they were writing but to His Church Jesus wills for us to search out His truth. He gave us His battle plan, with all the details for us to search out and understand, with the guidence of the Holy Spirit. When searching for truth we should ask that the Holy Spirit reveal to our minds the truth in the word. I ask for wisdom, and knowledge, not fame or fortune. Careful what you ask for, you just might get it!

                                                          Paul2

[musicllover]

  The Rapture is NOT a SECRET, the Rapture is a MYSTERY, that can be solved by being a detective and analizing ALL the evidence. Lazy detectives that ignore key pieces of evidence end up with false conclusions. The truth is hidden from those who do not seek the truth. God didn't want the whole word to understand His plan, but only those of the Church to understand His perfect plan. The world will be tricked by Antichrist and that is part of Gods wrath. We Christians are supposed to search diligently for the truth that has been hidden in the word for us to find. God keeps His plans secret from some as the prophets didn't even understand all the details of the prophecies they were writing but to His Church Jesus wills for us to search out His truth. He gave us His battle plan, with all the details for us to search out and understand, with the guidence of the Holy Spirit. When searching for truth we should ask that the Holy Spirit reveal to our minds the truth in the word. I ask for wisdom, and knowledge, not fame or fortune. Careful what you ask for, you just might get it!

                                                          Paul2

Paul2,
       I like that, calling it a mystery, cause truly it is. SO much of how God has his word written is a mystery, and yes it that way for a reason. For the issues of salvation, its pretty black and white. For the deeper things of God it takes diligance, prayer, and sometimes wise council. The rapture is written in such away that if one begins to study it it draws you into a complete study of the bible, sometimes its confusing but you have to keep searching......as least that is the way it is for me....to solve some of the mystery...I love it.. The Holy Spirit pops on like a light bulb for me. I get that OHHHH that makes so much sense now. It truly is something that each person has to gain on there own. God plants those mysteries for us...honestly it does divide those who are truly seeking, those who don't care, and that too is Gods plan.
    Our message at church today was on the The mysteries of Chirst to name a few..... Not to long ago the mystery of child birth, male or female, even longer back the mystery of  how the human body was made. As time goes on man challenges these mysteries. We can now tell the sex of a baby before it is born, the human body for the most part is known, but the mind of God will NEVER been know.....the greatest comfort I have somedays is the very fact that God never changes. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. The plan for his church hasn't changed. Taught from the time of Christ till now, what God put into motion is still move in the same direction. It will happen. People say no rapture but God isn't going to let his plan get mistrepresented, there is a whole Church at stake here. It was taught, the rapture is a true even Jesus taught it in Matt, from his very lips he taught us. It will happen. And its important that people have at least that understanding.
      Rich blessings
       

[musicllover]

http://www.lifetalk.net/2ndcoming/ee.html

this link will give a quick view of some of the scriptures used in the believe or the raprure, not to mention the vidio that goes with it. Makes me have goose bumps. Please paste and copy this and check it out.

[twobombs]

I'm back

After contemplating the first real account of the pre-trib rapture i've come to another question that might fill me in some more on the pre-trib rapture.

After a very, very, good friend of mine gave his work on the rapture to me to continue ( for that work he was awarded a special masters-degree in Theology at the university of Cape Town in South Afrika ) it's been a little more then seven years now....

This master piece that took him over 20 years to complete he painfully accurate pointed out that the feast that will fullfill the Rapture will be the Feast of Trumpets. And just as the Pesach is fullfilled on the exact day it was ordained so many years ago, Rosh Hashasnah, wich marks the end of the year and the start of a new one, is going to be the day of the Rapture.

I have got a 0% deviation from that day; this is for real.

What only remains is the year; 7 years are left for the Jews, those are the years that were cut short and started the church ages so many years ago, and its end will mark the end of the Age; all generations (in portions of 40 years) will then be fullfilled

Now here is my question: were do you place the Gog-Magog event, at the beginning or at the end of the Trib. ?

When you notice the length of the Rosh Hashasnah feast you might know the theological importance of my question.

[musicllover]

I'm back

After contemplating the first real account of the pre-trib rapture i've come to another question that might fill me in some more on the pre-trib rapture.

After a very, very, good friend of mine gave his work on the rapture to me to continue ( for that work he was awarded a special masters-degree in Theology at the university of Cape Town in South Afrika ) it's been a little more then seven years now....

This master piece that took him over 20 years to complete he painfully accurate pointed out that the feast that will fullfill the Rapture will be the Feast of Trumpets. And just as the Pesach is fullfilled on the exact day it was ordained so many years ago, Rosh Hashasnah, wich marks the end of the year and the start of a new one, is going to be the day of the Rapture.

I have got a 0% deviation from that day; this is for real.

What only remains is the year; 7 years are left for the Jews, those are the years that were cut short and started the church ages so many years ago, and its end will mark the end of the Age; all generations (in portions of 40 years) will then be fullfilled

Now here is my question: were do you place the Gog-Magog event, at the beginning or at the end of the Trib. ?

When you notice the length of the Rosh Hashasnah feast you might know the theological importance of my question.

Twotombs,
         I think I understand you question. I even did a little internet search, Christian Dictionary search, and goodle search. Anything Christian had "0" responses. Goodle had several everything form a Gog-Magog Golf Course, to giants of old. SO I assume you must be referring to giants. I know Goliath was from Goth, is that something to do with this, and how does this apply to the Rapture, or endtimes? Laymans terms for me Please.

[musicllover]

Twotombs,
  Gog and Magog, 21:96  I am shock.........this comes from the Koran?   Can you explain or am I little slow here. Are you a Muslim?

[twobombs]

First of all: my nick is Two Bombs, wich is an old atari OS error
Second: I do not buy this 2nd hand faith called Islam
Third: Gog and Magog is in

Eze 39:1     Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

It is the judgement of the end-times when carefully read you can read a lot out of Eze 39

Yet Paul was close, very close with the giants of old; for these days shall be as in the days of old And as the flood in those days came over them, sudden destruction shall come upon those that say: " Peace, peace, and there is no peace"

"Woe unto the false shepards, that lead not my flock, but let it go astray"

[musicllover]

First of all: my nick is Two Bombs, wich is an old atari OS error
Second: I do not buy this 2nd hand faith called Islam
Third: Gog and Magog is in

Eze 39:1     Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

It is the judgement of the end-times when carefully read you can read a lot out of Eze 39

Yet Paul was close, very close with the giants of old; for these days shall be as in the days of old And as the flood in those days came over them, sudden destruction shall come upon those that say: " Peace, peace, and there is no peace"

"Woe unto the false shepards, that lead not my flock, but let it go astray"

TOW BOMBS,
    1          LOL.......sorry that does sound better doesn't it. I'll be sure and remember that. Just read something the other day where some test was done when people read the usually only read the first and last letters.........guess that is proven in this case.
    2, I'm wiping the sweat off.......ThanK God, I liked you anyway but now at least I know we are on the same page. Well at least in the same book. I was searching for something else and ran into this phrase,  thought it was wierd. So I'll put my shock back in my pocket.
   3, I'll read Eza.  So do you thing this is literal giants or possible a world power?
     STill friends I hope. Forgive me.

[twobombs]

Musiclover: no, the analogy between the Giants of old as a reason for the flood and the people that fell/fall away from the faith and wear the mark is enough for me