Is it me or....

[Soldier4Christ]

I will not disobey--for I have NEVER disobeyed God..and Jesus is the one I follow.

To this I say AMEN, sister! One of the ways that He leads us is through His word, the Bible. We must not go against Him.

[Brother Jerry]

Amen and amen.

And with a glimpse of what you had mentioned in your life the Bible teaches us as well.  If a woman is in a marriage of which she is the saved one.  Then she is to be in charge spiritually.  And it sounds like you did. 

In my life I fell far and dragged my family down with me.  Even my wife was suffering but she was able to step up and take lead in our family as far as spiritual matters were concerned.  But once God was back in my life and leading me and I was walking in accordance to His wishes.  My wife stepped back and let me lead the family. 

And I agree that God will tell each of us what path we should follow.  And the only way we can truly discern that which we are led to do is to read our Bible.  If we feel we are being led to do something that is against Biblical teaching then we can know that it is not of God or that we did not interpret the leading properly.

Again I can only say that I am not saying that a woman cannot preach.  Only that one should not from the pulpit.  And no matter how much "stuff" we have gone through in our lives it is not "stuff" that gives us the right of anything.  It is only by His grace and mercy.

[Kathy]

There is a difference between a woman being in the ministry and a woman being the lead over a church. We see in Romans 16 where Paul mentions a number of women that are in the service of the Lord. One in particular Paul refers to as a diakonos in the original Greek. This is the same word that is used in Rom 15:8 telling us that "Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God".

In a number of places Paul refers to certain women as being equals in the service of the Lord. (Rom 16:3)
In Rom 16 : 7 Paul refers to a woman as being "kinsmen", "fellow prisoner" and "apostle".

We know from these verses and others that women are to be esteemed as equals to men. Yet we also see that God has established a certain order in His church. Although we do not see anywhere of a woman being designated as a Bishop of a church, {A Bishop ( episkopos, male gender always )  is a superintendent, that is, Christian officer in general charge of a (or the) church (literally or figuratively): - bishop, overseer.} we do see women being in a position of having a ministry (teaching).

In fact we see in the following verse where a woman is not to "usurp authority over the man", that is to not be in a dominate position over a man.

1Ti 2:12  But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 1Ti 2:13  For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

Where in Rom. 16:7 does Paul call woman kinsmen", "fellow prisoner" and "apostle. Since you used 1 Ti 2:12 I ask you to look at the word man. It doesn't not say men it says man which means individual. So if it say man and that is what it means we can assume God is talking about the over her which would her male figure in her life. So I am not sure what your stand is on this. It almost sounds like you are against women over churches by your very statement, but by the verses you gave it, to me, only supports women.
Learning in Christ's Love,
Kathy

[Kelly4Jesus]

You know what amazes me the most is that, when Jesus walked the earth--not ONCE did He treat women as second hand citizens. Notice how, in the bible they talk openly about men that followed Jesus, yet--when they admit to the women, it is "and 4 women". They have no names, yet Jesus didn't turn around and say to them, "go home, be barefoot and pregnant and don't follow me". Mary Magdalene followed Jesus, openly. The woman that touched Jesus' cloak because she bled.

John refers to himself as THE ONE THAT JESUS loved--which always amazed me for Jesus didn't pick and choose. Jesus even loved Judas, knowing he would betray Him. Paul had so many women, including Lydia that, had they followed the rule of being silent, he would have never made it in his ministry as far as he did.

Jesus never once told women to be silent. I follow what Jesus says.

I look at it as a sign of the times--back then, women were treated by all men as subordinate. Yet, Jesus never once showed anything in this manner at all.

Me, I listen to God. God would not tell me my path if it was against His Will. I trust FULLY in Him. What His path is for me, I am not sure. But, if it is at the pulpit, witnessing to others and leading them to Jesus--it is my honor to do--for it isn't for me or for anyone on earth. It is fully for HIS Glory!!!

God Bless,
Kelly

[nChrist]

Hello Sister Kelly,

I think we have several lengthy debate threads on this topic already on the forum. I'm not going to get involved in this debate. I'll simply state that the entire Bible from cover to cover is the Word of GOD. There is an excellent reason for every single sentence, and every single sentence is worthy of study.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Kathy]

Kelly,
You listen to your heart as to what you know that God wants you to do. Don't let man or men tell you "you can't do that". If God doesn't want you to do something He will tell you and give comformation. God qualifies the called not matter if be man or woman. What would have happened if WOMEN like Marilyn Hickey, Paula White, Joyce Meyers...etc. hadn't listened to the call that God had put on their lifes because man said they couldn't? Pray that God will give you comformation.
Kathy

[Soldier4Christ]

Where in Rom. 16:7 does Paul call woman kinsmen", "fellow prisoner" and "apostle.

Rom 16:7  Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Since you used 1 Ti 2:12 I ask you to look at the word man. It doesn't not say men it says man which means individual. So if it say man and that is what it means we can assume God is talking about the over her which would her male figure in her life.

All the verses that I gave supports women having a ministry, not being in the lead of a church. If we look at all the verses given (including those Brother Jerry referenced) it clearly shows that it is a male position.

So I am not sure what your stand is on this. It almost sounds like you are against women over churches by your very statement, but by the verses you gave it, to me, only supports women.

It does not matter what my stand or your stand is. What matters is what we are told in the Bible. There is absolutely no way to turn around or twist what is being told to us in 1Ti 3.

You know what amazes me the most is that, when Jesus walked the earth--not ONCE did He treat women as second hand citizens. Notice how, in the bible they talk openly about men that followed Jesus, yet--when they admit to the women, it is "and 4 women". They have no names, yet Jesus didn't turn around and say to them, "go home, be barefoot and pregnant and don't follow me". Mary Magdalene followed Jesus, openly. The woman that touched Jesus' cloak because she bled.

Here goes the prejudice card. Sister no one here has said that women are second class citizens nor has anyone indicated it. Nor has anyone said they are to stay home, be barefoot and pregnant. The opposite was said. It is very apparent that women do have a place in the church and various ministries just not a lead position.

You mentioned the women around Jesus. Not once did He make a woman an Apostle. The Bible was written by men but it was inspired of God. If God did not want it to be said that way in the Bible then it would not have been.

John refers to himself as THE ONE THAT JESUS loved--which always amazed me for Jesus didn't pick and choose. Jesus even loved Judas, knowing he would betray Him. Paul had so many women, including Lydia that, had they followed the rule of being silent, he would have never made it in his ministry as far as he did.

Jesus never once told women to be silent. I follow what Jesus says.

The verse telling women to be silent was in regard to women that were taking over the church and attempting to change things, being unruly in many ways. It was also pointing out the order that God wants us to instill in both the family and the church. If we attempt to omit things from the Bible because Jesus didn't say it directly then we would have to omit the majority of the Bible. It is this stance that is made by those that are homosexual, Jesus didn't say it so it is okay to be homosexual. We must be careful not to tread in that direction.

2Ti 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Sister, we have shown you what the Bible has to say on this matter. If you wish to continue on the path that you are on then that is in fact, as you said, between you and God. I will be praying that it will be to the glory of God and according to His will.

[Kelly4Jesus]

I am not debating the bible--for I do believe it is God Breathed. I do question translations to a degree--however, I also do believe that God speaks directly to each and every one of us. He has done so much leading in my life and many times, I wish I had listened. In other cases, I am glad I did. My move here to Kansas was against what is stated in the bible. Woman is not supposed to leave her husband. Yet, God led me here, alone. Granted, I didn't listen to human beings and get a divorce. God said not to divorce, and I listened. I waited and prayed. Well, coming to Kansas was truly of God. I got a home I could afford, my children have the best education, my autistic children receive services they never would have gotten in Massachusetts, my marriage was restored--and most of all, PRAISE GOD..I was saved here! Although I was always loving God, I rarely ever knew anything about Jesus. So, even though I was chastised for doing what I did, God led me here for a reason. I am glad I listened to God and not to opinions of my fellow "brethren" back home, and to the church I went to at the time.

I am not saying I am going to preach. I don't know what God is leading me to. Personally, I believe it is some sort of public witnessing so that I can lead others to Jesus. From a pulpit, I dont know--could be right in my back yard--or in another country. I do know what God is pulling me towards, and I also know I have a lot of learning to be done. God continues to strengthen me in many trials, some that are, right now very harsh by human standards. But, I don't stand on human standards. I stand by God, and know that, He will use this time for His Glory.

I will say this--how a woman perceives (not all, but some) what is written here, and how a man does is two different things. I do believe times have changed, and people with them. I do believe God is using the change in our times for His Glory, and to bring more sheep to His herd, before the end of times (which I also believe to be closer).

All I can say to anyone is, pray and pray without ceasing. God will always be faithful, and each of us will always be right if we continue to follow HIS lead, and continue to walk in faith, not by sight. Trust in God. He will never forsake you or lead you down the wrong path. We all know who leads us astray--it will never be God.

God bless,
Kelly

[Brother Jerry]

Amen Kelly,

I agree that God has in His plan the changes that man brings about.  The Bible is full of them.  But the one thing that remains the same is His word.  He never goes back on it.  And that is a wonderous thing to hold onto.  I know that His promises will come true and that is what keeps me living each day.

And the one thing we must remember is that "all things" are worked for the benefit of God.  And although you were not saved when you moved to Kansas that verse says "all" things and thus even in the lives of the unsaved, God is working.  We are truly joyous that we can count you as a sister. 

[nChrist]

Amen Brother Jerry,

I give thanks that GOD gives us sweet Christian fellowship with other Brothers and Sisters in Christ. This is a gift of Love that GOD gives us, and it can lead to strength and encouragement to all of us in difficult times. We are never alone, as JESUS has already promised HE will never leave or forsake us.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[nChrist]

Sister Kelly,

I come from a family with several generations of preachers, missionaries, and laborers for the LORD. I am certain that GOD has work for all Christians to do. I was a career police officer, but I was also a laborer for the LORD. Several sets of young people in my family are already missionaries, and several more sets are preparing to go. These are nearly always husband and wife teams with marriages as described in the Holy Bible. The same is true for others going into various kinds of ministry. In terms of GOD, GOD is the SAME yesterday, today, and forever. His instructions to us in the Holy Bible are timeless - they change only when GOD changes them. Things don't work very well when our will collides with HIS Will. HIS Will be done on earth and in heaven, and it will be.

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Kelly4Jesus]

Bro!
I know that God is the same, yesterday as He is today and tomorrow. God has not and will not change. Unfortunately, man has. Over many generations, I have watched how the Lord became a major part of our family, to almost completely non existant. Praise God, I was not one of them. When I say I was saved, I was reborn--but had a very close, intimate and OPEN relationship with our Father from early childhood--which, in a house of an agnostic and atheist (mom and grandfather), was not a pleasant experience. Yet, even after being beaten for openly speaking to our Father, I still talked to Him. He promised to be with me, and I knew His Word to be the only truth I had in my life.

Man has changed. We have God in our country, yet not in our laws. I do NOT agree with gay marriage- and am grateful I no longer live in the state that now has it legal. I have family members that are gay and they are well aware of my Christian beliefs. I may no longer be a member of THAT family, but I am forever a member of the family of Christ. In that family, I am loved an accepted, praise Jesus.

Although I do believe there are many interpretations since the original languages in our bible, I also will stand by the fact that God can and does speak to each of us personally. I will never follow man's suggestions, although I do ask for advice from my pastor, co-leader of our prayer team (I am lead Intercessor for prayer in our church). I will hand over all that God tells me to give to "authority" in my church. My relationship with Jesus is intimate and I would never give that up for anything==no matter what anyone on earth said to me. He has been ever faithful in my life and I continue to listen to every calling  He has for my life--for His Glory. I do go by the Word of the Bible, and will pray whenever I find something I am not in total understanding with. God has always pointed out the truth to me, even when I didn't like it. He will continue to do so--where it applies my works for Him, to bring others to Christ.

Again, I have no intentions of being at the pulpit. However, if God tells me to do so, I will not refuse. If some do not like it, I respect that. However, I am not out to please or do anything by man--only by God. I would hope we would all do the same--and seek His Wisdom for discernment before judging anyone's calling.

Let's put it this way--when I get to heaven, I think I will find I was wrong about many things I thought were true here on earth. God will set many of us straight, I am sure. However, we will all be together in His Kingdom, for we followed Jesus and did as He told us to do. No matter what the debate here on Earth, the rest we receive in the promise is worth it all! Praise Jesus for His Victory at the Cross and our gift of everlasting life, in Him!

God Bless,
Kelly

[Brother Jerry]

Again Amen

[mississippi_jesus_chic]

I completely agree that God will lead us where he wants us to go.  And I also think that women play an important part in working for Jesus.  But, women are not to be leaders of the church. 

 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full [a] respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap. 8 In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.

11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.
I Timothy 3:1-11

I think that if women God planned for women to be "pastors" over a church that he would not have said what he said in the blue letters up there. 

Pastor's wives are very important too.  As are sunday school teachers.  The church wouldn't be the same without women.  Things would go very differently, in my opinion. Also, female missionaries are very important and can do just as much as a male missionary.  But, I don't think that a woman should necessarily be the head of the church.

[russ44k]

Interesting how this went from is America like sodom to can women lead in a church.I was raised in a denomination that women have been a head of a church.
and Ireally do not have a problem with that .for there are some times when the men of the church do not step up to the plate .so by not stepping up to the plate they infact put themselves under the athority of a woman.so if a manis'nt willing then the complaining of woman should stop.
To get back to the subject of like sodom the USA is a great country I was in the navy for 7 years and have seen a lot of other contrys and wouldn't want to live else were.The reason I belive this country hasn't yet fallen is because of the church and this countrys support of Isreal.Num 24 :9 second half .Blessed is everyone who blesses you (Isreal) and cursed is everyone who curses you(Isreal).NASB
I belive that God is with holding some possible judgments on us as a country because of our support of Isreal.woe the day we say Isreal your on your own.
There are millions of people that call themselves Christian but only a hand full who seem to know who Christ is.
Alot of the main line denominations  are becoming soft on the  Word of God and is making Christianity Warm and fuzzy .So as to not have to see our own faults or sins and just go to church and you will be ok.NOT
REPENT means to turn away from.If you are a practicing homosexual then you cannot be in ministry for you are in continual sin the Bible is clear ,its a sin period.
As the church goes soft then this country is doomed to have the kind of distruction that sodom had .
My opinion like it hate it             I'll see you all in heaven