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Author Topic: THE CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT – THEN AND NOW  (Read 9128 times)
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« on: September 15, 2003, 04:45:37 PM »

THE CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT – THEN AND NOW (PART 1)
By – Dee L. McCroskey

Chapter 1.

Are Healing, Tongues, Miracles for Us Today?

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works that these shall he do; because I go unto My Father” (John 14:12).

CHARISMATIC, pronounced like the char in character, comes from the word charisma, “a divinely conferred gift of power.” In Biblical terms it refers to the special miraculous gift of the Pentecostal era, such as healing and speaking in tongues.

Let us first of all be clear about one thing: there was, indeed, a real, genuine, God given, charismatic era. It lasted some thirty-five years. There has never been, before or since, such a display of the mighty power of God in the everyday lives of men and women in physical matters. The sick were healed, demons were cast out, people spoke in new tongues, both in Israel and in the far outlying regions.

Are we now witnessing a renewal of these miraculous signs gifts? The Pentecostalist followings have, of course, professed to experience these gifts for years, but what we have today is something else, something that has been changing the face of all the world’s major denominations. For instance, about a decade ago, among the fundamental Baptist, a new movement emerged, called “Back to the power of Pentecost.” Soon the fundamental Lutherans in many cities were claming it, and then many of the other Protestant bodies, even to the Episcopalians. “The Roman Catholics have claimed these powers for years, but the bent toward miraculous signs has vastly increased among them. It is sometimes referred to as “The Charismatic Revival.”

For many years denominational Christendom shied away from the apparent fanaticism of the Pentecostal followings. What, then, is the reason for the present upsurge toward what once was held to be sheer fanaticism? The answer seems to be that preachers and church leaders have realized their lack of power and reality. Young people especially have become unenchanted with what they termed “the flat tire of cold, formalism” but wary of the other extreme – wildfire fanaticism. What the preachers yearned for was the power that the Pentecostalists seemed to have, but without the fanaticism. So we read of preachers of all religious backgrounds today seeking the gift of tongues, and still others trying to make “divine healing” work.

What we have today, especially among the young people, is an ardent emphasis upon empiricism – that is, that experience is the big thing, that all knowledge springs from experience. Had the preachers learned to teach the Word of God to their people, they would have had power, God’s power, and the joy of the Lord. But lacking this, they and their followers have given way to the natural human desire for esthetic feelings and experiences, for spiritual adventure. As with the old Pentecostal movement, it is the question of “experience versus sound Bible truth, rightly divided.”

The Charismatic Era

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on Me, the works that I do shall he do also, and greater works than these shall he do, because I go unto my Father” (John 14:12).

This has long been a puzzling verse. It is usually explained as referring to spiritual works, that the Lord’s believers would convert more people than He did. But our Lord made no such intimation here. He had just said to Philip and any other skeptics, “Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me: or else believe Me for the very works sake.” He was simply saying that in the coming Acts period His believing Jewish servants would perform even greater works in signs and miracles than He did. Not greater in quality or importance, but greater in quantity and scope. For one thing, the Lord never spoke in tongues, but His servants would do so to authenticate the coming of the Holy Spirit, and three thousand people would be saved in one day as a result.

For further details on the prophecy in John 14:12, we must turn next to Mark’s Gospel, chapter 16 and verse 14 to 20. The risen Lord had appeared to the eleven and said, “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” Then in verse 17 He said, “And these signs shall follow them that believe; In My name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”

Here were five gifts of a miraculous nature. And remember, there was no condition of spirituality mentioned. It was just simply that these signs would follow “them that believe.” And in verse 20 we read that “they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the Word with signs following.”

Now if you will look up all of the miracles worked by the Apostles in the Book of Acts, you will find every one of these Mark 16 promises fulfilled except drinking poison. And even this gift may well have been used at times. For these gifts were for a practical reason as well as for signs to the unsaved. The Lord was sending them forth with the gospel of repentance (Mark 1:4, Acts 2:38,11:18). Some of them would be traveling among dangers, poisonous snakes in desert places, murderous enemies in others. In those days poisoning was a favorite way of doing away with an enemy. But they were not to fear either of these perils.

Because Bible believing Christians could not relate these Mark 16 signs to the Church after the Acts period, and because these signs did not work after the first century, they long ago began to doubt the inspiration of this passage. Some Bible scholars still believe Mark 16:9-20 is not part of the inspired Word. But this view is now widely discredited. The Syriac and Latin versions all have it, and it is quoted by so many of the early writers. But positive proof that the passage is inspired lies in the fact that it was fulfilled in Acts.

Before and After the Cross

During His earthly ministry, our Lord’s miracles were signs to the unbelieving Jews that they might believe that He was the Son of God. “And many other signs truly did Jesus...But these are written that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God” (John 20:30-31). After the cross, the risen Lord gave this power to work miracles to His Apostles, again for signs to the unbelieving Jews to give divine authority to the message of the Apostles—2. Corinthians 12:12.

Israel the Sign People

“For the Jews require a sign” (1. Corinthians 1:22), “An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign” (Matthew 12:39). “They said therefore unto Him, “What sign shewest Thou then, that we may see, and believe thee?” (John 6:30). “Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe” (John 4:48).

In His dealings with His earthly people, Israel, God gave them three notable signs: (1) The sign of the virgin birth of His Son –Isiah 7:14; (2) Sign of the resurrection of Christ Matthew 12:39; (3) Speaking in tongues during the period from Pentecost to 70 A.D. Tongues were a sign, not to believers, but to unbelievers—1. Corinthians 14:22. These were not Gentiles, but unbelieving Jews, “this people”—Isiah 28:11 and 1. Corinthians 14:21.

End of the Sign Era

Sign gifts had two purposes: (1) to authenticate the inspired revelations of the Apostles; (2) to prove to unbelieving Jews that “that same Jesus whom ye have crucified” is the true Messiah. But God does not continue to give signs when their message is rejected. As Isiah said (Isiah 28:12). “yet they would not hear.” When Israel as a nation was cast off at Acts 28:28, the sign gifts discontinued, not to return during the present age of grace.

Three of the temporary gifts were to cease---1. Corinthians 13:8. The total absence of tongues, healings and other signs gifts in Paul’s later, or Prison Epistles shows that they had all passed off the scene. Paul wrote in 1. Corinthians 13:9-10, “ For we know in part, and we prophecy in part. But when that which is perfect is comes then that which is in part shall be done away.” That expression “that which is perfect” does not refer to when we get to heaven, as so many think. It means that when Paul’s full revelations are all given, when the New Testament is finished, then there would be no more use of the temporary gifts. The New Testament WAS finished, and the temporary gifts DID cease.

Today’s “Charismatic” Movement

All saved people are baptized of the Holy Spirit into the One Body of Christ at the time they receive Him as Saviour. The Word never speaks of any second baptism of the Spirit, or any special sensational experience. The present so-called charismatic movement is embraced by many unsaved people of all religious backgrounds, which proves that God is not in it. Further, it is ecumenical in character, even embracing great numbers of Catholics and their leaders, all working toward the great “one world church” of the Tribulation time. This movement today is Satanically inspired, and energized by demon spirits. It is but one more proof that we are in the last days of this dying age.

“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of demons” (1. Timothy 4:1).
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« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2003, 04:49:21 PM »

(PART 2)

Chapter 2.

“Speaking in Tongues” Is This for Us Today?


“For with stammering lips and another tongue will He speak to this people. To whom He said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear” (Isiah 28:11-12).

“In the law it is written, With men of other tongues will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear Me, saith the Lord” (1. Corinthians 14:21).

“Wherefore tongues are for a sign not to them that believe, but to them that believe not” (1. Corinthians 14:22).

There are some who are guided by, and trusting in, their experiences or the experiences of someone close to them, and are not interested in what the Word of God has to say about this subject. To such, we have nothing to say. For there is no subject that cries out more loudly for obedience to the command of 2. Timothy 2:15, “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.”

In the Scriptures quoted above, there are important points that we should carefully note. They are:

1. “Tongues are for a sign” (1. Corinthians 14:22). In general, signs were temporary; they were to show God’s approval of a message or the messenger.”...The Lord working with them, and confirming the Word with signs following” (Mark 16:20)..”Jesus of Nazareth a Man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs” (Acts 2:22). “God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders” (Hebrews 2:4).

2. A sign to the Jewish nation—Isiah 28:11, “this people.” The phrase always refers to the Jewish nation, especially when it is connected with the statement that “they will not hear Me.” In spite of the signs, Israel refused to hear.

3. Tongues were a sign to unbelievers, not to believers (1, Corinthians 14:22). And these unbelievers were the unbelieving Jews of that time, not the Gentiles, and certainly not the church of today.

The History of Tongues

“Glossolalia” (tongues, or speaking in tongues) is found only in five passages in the New Testament. It is used only once in the Four Gospels, in Mark 16:17. Here it is among the prophesied charismatic gifts to be fulfilled during the apostolic era, or the Acts period, after which signs gifts all went off the scene. Speaking in tongues is only found in three passages in Acts, in Chapter 2, 10 and 19. It is found for the last time in 1. Corinthians, chapter 12 to 14. Of the 21 epistles in the New Testament, tongues are only in this one. Let us now look at the gift of tongues in the following passages:

1. In Acts Chapter 2 –

Pentecost means fifty. In fulfillment of the type in the Wave Loves in Leviticus 23:15-22, the Holy Spirit descended on the fiftieth day after the resurrection of Christ. But how were the people of Israel to know this? God gave them three signs to show that this great event was taking place, right on schedule!

Sign Number 1. “And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind” (v2). And “it filled all the house.” We are reminded of the time when Solomon had finished building the first temple (2. Chronicles 7:1-3). “Fire came down from heaven,” and the Holy Spirit, in the form of the Shekinah glory cloud (Exodus 40:34) filled the Lord’s house.

Sign Number 2. The appearance of “clove tongues like as of fire.” Some strange doctrines have been built upon the supposition that this was literal fire. It was not. It was “like as” of fire, another sign to signify the presence of the Holy Spirit.

Sign Number 3. “and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to Speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” What were these tongues? Just what the text says, “other tongues,” or other languages. Jews from many nations were there for the feasts of Jehovah. See the list in verse 9 to 11. These were all known, national languages. The Scriptures know nothing of an “unknown” tongue. The word “unknown” is used in our authorized Bible, in several places in 1. Corinthians 14, but always in Italics. That means that it was not in the original, but supplied by the translators. Also the Word of God knows nothing of speaking in a strange “gibberish.” This always comes from some source other than God.

Speaking in tongues, then, on the day of Pentecost, was for a sign to the unbelieving Jews.” It was to be of short duration. Had it been something permanent, to run through the whole dispensation of grace, every believer could have had it. Instead, only a few had it, mainly the Apostles. God knew that the authority of the Apostles, and their message of the coming of the Holy Spirit, would be challenged. So He backed them up with mighty signs.

There is no mention of any Gentile at Pentecost. They were all “Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven” (v 5). The tongues were for the benefit of the unbelieving Jews who looked on. “And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?’ (v. 12).

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« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2003, 04:50:03 PM »

(PART 3)

2. In Acts Chapter 10----

This was in the house of Cornelius, the Gentile army captain. Peter was preaching the risen Lord to them. All of a sudden, he was interrupted. “While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them which heard the Word.” Peter had six Jewish brethren with him (v. 45 with 11:12). How were these six Jews to know that the Holy Spirit had came upon the Gentile converts? By the fact that the latter began to speak in other languages or tongues. (See verses 46 in chapter 10). The tongues were not for the benefit of the Gentile converts who did the speaking. They didn’t need this sign; they aready believed, just as many a Gentile has done since, without any sign. Just the Word of God.

But verse 45 says, “And they of the circumcision (the six Jews) which believed were astonished.” The sign was working. These Jews were professed believers in Christ. They were “unbelieving” only in the sense that up to this point practically all Jews had refused to believe that the Gentiles were to be saved and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Even Peter had his apprehensions at first (see verse 14, 15 and 28). But thanks to the “tongues sign,” Peter now has six Jewish brethren to back him up when he tries to explain these Gentile converts to the Jewish assembly back home in Jerusalem.

3. In Acts Chapter 19----

At Ephesus Paul had met 12 men (either Jews or Jewish proselytes). They had received John’s baptism, but seemed to know nothing of Christ’s redemptive work on the cross, nor of the coming of the Holy Spirit. Paul spoke to them of believing on Christ, in verse 4. They believed, and when Paul laid his hands on them (another gift for the apostolic era only, from Deut. 34:9), the Holy Spiriy came on them and they spoke with tongues.

We see then, that this speaking in tongues was again a sign to the Jews. Not only a sign to the twelve Jews that Paul had met, but also to all the Jews in the synagogue at Ephesus, where Paul next takes his ministry (v. 8).

4. In 1. Cor. 12 – 14—15----

To get the background here we must go back to Acts 18, the founding of the church at Corinth. In verse 4 Paul reasoned in the synagogue at Corinth, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. He “testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.” The results of that was that they (the Jews) “opposed themselves, and blasphemed,” and Paul said, “from henceforth I will go to the Gentiles.”

Corinth was a center of world commerce. Many Jews resided there, and many languages were spoken in the city. Among the believers, no doubt there were both Jews and Gentiles who could speak in other languages besides their own. Paul continued his gospel work in Corinth for a year and six months (Acts 18:11). Meanwhile, the Jews refused and opposed the message that Paul brought, and he left the synagogue and began holding meetings in a house right next door to the synagogue! (see Acts 18:7). Although Paul could no longer speak directly to the Jews in the synagogue, his message next door did somehow filter into the synagogue. So much that Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, heard the Word and got saved! And some others with him—Acts:18:8.

For the benefit of those unbelieving Jews in the synagogue at Corinth, God confirmed His Apostle’s message with a sign. What sign? The gift of tongues given to the believers in the new Corinthian assembly. At first, no doubt, this was the pure gift from the Holy Spirit bestowed upon certain men in the Corinthian assembly for the purpose of authenticating the Apostle and his message to the unbelieving Jews next door, and throughout the city.

But the Corinthians began to misuse this gift, and perhaps confused it with the ability of some of their numbers to speak in some of the foreign languages they had learned down at the docks, or in some other way. The ability to speak in another language has always appealed to the pride of our carnal old nature. And the Corinthians were carnal! (1. Cor. 3:3). In any case, Paul wrote chapter 12, 13 and 14 to them to de-emphasize the tongues gift, and to increase emphasis upon what he called “a more excellent way.” That was the way of love, described in chapter 13.

Down – graded 2,000 to 1.

Paul down-graded the importance of the gift of tongues 2,000 to one. He would rather speak meaningfully in five words than use ten thousand words that others could not understand (1 Cor. 14:19).

Inn Summary

1. Tongues in the Bible were known languages, not gibberish.
2. Tongues were a sign to unbelieving Jews, never to convince Gentiles or the Church. The Jews are a sign people – 1. Cor. 1:22.
3. Tongues were to cease when their need as a sign was fulfilled – 1. 13:8.
4. Not every believer spoke in tongues, only specially gifted ones – 1. Cor 12:30.
5. Never a sign of spirituality, but rather lack of it. Never practiced in any of the spiritual assemblies, only in carnal Corinth.
6. In the Bible, no woman ever spoke in tongues. Think what this would do to the modern tongues movement! In Acts 1:14, “These all” is in the masculine gender in the Greek, showing that only the men prayed, although women were present. in the big chapter on tongues, 1. Cor. 14, the women are explicitly forbidden to speak, in verse 34.
7. Our Lord Jesus Christ never spoke in tongues! Nor did the Apostle Paul at the time of his conversion. Tongues had nothing to do with salvation.
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« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2003, 04:53:24 PM »

(PART 4)

Chapter 3.

What is Behind the Modern Charismatic Movement?

“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free, and have been all made to drink into one Spirit” 1. Corinthians 12:13.

“But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtility, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him” (2. Corinthians 11:3-4).

ONE SUMMER morning as I was washing my gospel car, two lady preachers stopped to talk. They soon got to the inevitable question. “Brother, have you received the baptism of the Holy Ghost? With 1. Corinthians 12:12 in mind, I answered in the affirmative, But I knew this wasn’t what they had in mind. Then I turned it around and asked, “Have you ladies received it yet?

“Oh, no,” they both answered. “We have been tarrying for it, but it hasn’s come yet.” “Are you sure,” I asked, “that you have tarried according to the Scriptures” Have you gone to Jerusalem to do your tarrying , as Luke 29:49 says?” “Of course not,” one of them answered, “when it says Jerusalem it means Portland, or wherever you are.” “Not in MY Bible,” I replied. “My Bible says exactly what it means, and means what it says, and it does not tell any one to tarry in Portland. But you will never make it anyhow,” I added, because you are nearly 2,000 years too late to obey that Scripture.

Spirit Baptism and Tongues

One of the most flagrant errors in the so-called charismatic movement is the assumption that speaking in tongues is related to the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Some believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is necessary in order to speak in tongues. Others turn it around and say that speaking in tongues is evidence or proof that one has obtained the baptism of the Spirit. Both of these assumption are gross errors.

As we saw in our study last time, the receiving of the Spirit in Acts chapter 2, 10, and 19 were special occasions, for a sign to the nation Israel, and never repeated again. Nowhere in Scripture is there any statement or indication that believers today are to seek the baptism by, in, or with the Holy Spirit. Before Pentecost, the apostles were to wait for the coming of the Spirit, and to tarry in Jerusalem until He came. He did come, and is in the world today. There is no waiting for Him now. nor tarrying for Him.

In 1. Corinthians 12:13, quoted above, we find that ALL believers have been baptized by the Holy Spirit into the one body of Christ. This took place the moment we received the Lord Jesus as our Saviour. At that time each one of us was also “born of the Spirit,” “ indwelt by the Spirit,” and “sealed by the Spirit.” The baptism of the Spirit, then, is part of our great salvation. It is not some ecstatic, sensational experience, but an act which placed us in the one body of Christ. Speaking in tongues has nothing whatever to do with it.

A Mark of False Movements

There is a tell-tale mark by which believers with spiritual understanding can usually spot a false movement. It is their constant use of the name “Jesus.” It is always “Jesus” this and “Jesus” that. This always reveals a sad ignorance of “present truth” as revealed in Paul’s Epistles, and worse yet, a sad ignorance of the Lordship of Christ as revealed in Paul’s revelations. It has always been the mark of the Pentecostal movement, and now it is also a common mark of the charismatic followings.

Suffice to say here that the Lordship of Christ is very precious to God the Father. For He “hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name:...And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of the Father” (Philippians 2:9-11). Let us give Him His proper title and office – the Lord Jesus Christ!

As we saw in our last study, the gifts and signs and miracles were temporary demonstrations to the nation Israel during the Acts period. Their purpose was to authenticate the apostles and their message. These gifts went off the scene at the close of the Acts period, when God set the rebellious nation aside for the duration of the present age, and turned to the Gentiles – Acts 28:28.

You find these sign gifts in three places: Romans 12:6-8, 1. Corinthians 12:8-10, and 12:28. You find another list of gifts in Ephesians 4:8-11, but there are no sign gifts there. You will search Paul’s later, or Prison Epistles, in vain for any gifts of healing or speaking in tongues. The miracle gifts had gone off the scene by that time.

“That Which Is Perfect”

“Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
“For we know in part, and we prophecy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away” (1. Corinthians 13:8-10).

Here were three things that were to disappear from the scene – prophecies, tongues and divine knowledge. These prophecies were not what we usually think of as Bible prophecies. They were given by the Acts period prophets (as in Acts 11:27, 13:1, 21:10) through whom the Holy Spirit could give the early believers temporary oral instructions while the New Testament was in the making. Remember that they had only the Old Testament Scriptures then. Knowledge is in the same category, temporary knowledge from God until the New Testament was finished. These two gifts obviously would be discontinued when they were no longer needed.

Speaking in tongues would also cease when God stopped dealing with the nation Israel at Acts 28:28. Until the whole Bible was completed, even Paul had to say, “We know in part.” But all of these temporary gifts would cease “when that which is perfect is come.”

What is, “that which is perfect” here? It is not “when we get to heaven,” as so many think. Nor does it refer to the coming of the Lord. “That which is perfect” is the completed, Spirit-breathed, flawless Word of God! It is what we have in our hands today, and why should anyone want to trade it for the old, temporary expedients?

The Tongues Movement Today

What is behind the speaking in tongues movement today? There probably is no simple answer to that question. Doubtless much of it is pure fake. But some of it appears real, and unexplainable. And of course, most of its proponents judge it by experience, rather than by the Word of God rightly divided. One thing we know from the Word of God, the power behind it today could not be God. There is some other source of power behind it. There is also weakness of human emotions. Regarding this latter, we quote the following from a paper on the subject by Mr. John, of Blenheim, New Zealand:
“Tongues and Hypnosis. In the modern Pentecostal movement, “speaking in tongues” is brought on by a process of mental fatigue through the continual repetition of one or more words like “Hallelujah” or “Precious Jesus.” Moderate revivalists receive this experience by laying on of hands and concentration. This also produces emotion and mental fatigue of the conscious mind. When the conscious mind reaches collapse under either method, the sub-conscious mind takes over, and any suggestions made at that time, such as tongues, healings, etc, are accepted as correct for they have by-passed the conscious mind."

The people who are led into these movements are seeking relief from unsatisfied spiritual experience. Not being well established in the Word of God, they are easy prey for Satan and his demon spirits. We must expect more and more of these pseudo miraculous movements as the age comes to an end. For when the Antichrist Beast of the Tribulation time arrives on the scene, he will come, “after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders” (2> Thessalonians 2:9).

“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of demons” (1. Timothy 4:1). Let us who are children of light, beware of Satan’s traps and be always guided by “Nevertheless what saith the Scriptures?” And remember that Paul tried to tell the Corinthians that there is a better way – the way of love. Even faith and hope will no longer be needed when we arrive in glory, but love will last forever.



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« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2003, 05:18:15 PM »

At the point of salvation the believer is blessed with every spiritual blessing, the challenge then is to make use of our perfect provision and to do so consistently better today than we had yesterday. For the believer, the very 'armor of God' is standard issue, the question is then is it our daily wear, or is it collecting dust somewhere in our wardrobe?

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« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2003, 05:38:28 PM »

The speaking in tongues that was mentioned in ACTS is when people could hear other people who were speaking in another national language in their own language! In other words, if someone were speaking in German, I could then hear it in English. This is not heebee geebee gibberish that someone claims to translate. This was a PHENOMENON of the ability to understand French or German or Aramaic.

To be able to discern real gifts from phony gifts comes when we are able to look at our own motives for doing it. If it's coming from the holy Spirit, then there are NO ego related issues  involved. There are so many people who are trying to "prove" that they are spiritually mature by claiming miraculous powers. That is ego-inflation and self-aggrandizement, not fruits of the spirit. Real fruits of the spirit come unbenounced to any self glorifying motives. They are not from the human being. They don't come from the desire to boast or call attention to oneslef. Those particualr gifts are extremely rare. They are are because as AM4 said, miraculous signs used to exist to prove that God does exist. Now that the Holy Spirit has entered the world and the gospel has been preached to most nations of the world, miracles are not needed as much. That's my opinion.
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« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2003, 08:48:53 PM »

The presentation is lacking a complete analysis of speaking in tongues. There is a difference between thier use in an assembly and for personal reasons such as edification.

aw
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« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2003, 09:59:11 PM »

And how do we know what a person's motives are when speaking in togues? In my opinion, the closer a person comes to the SCRIPTURAL description of speaking in tongues, the more trustworthy his experience is.
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« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2003, 12:40:49 AM »

The presentation is lacking a complete analysis of speaking in tongues. There is a difference between thier use in an assembly and for personal reasons such as edification.

aw
Thank you AW.

When Jesus told me, "just seek Me", I did. I layed face up on the floor, and began to center my whole being on Jesus. I kept saying, "Jesus; Jesus."  Then what felt like electricity began to flow through my body. It lasted about 15 minutes, after which I began to speak in tongues. (though at the time I did not know what it was, for I had never yet heard about speaking in tongues). I just knew God was touching me.
It was after this that I began to understand the Word of God like never before. (very shortly after this the Holy Spirit revealed to me, from His Word, what had taken place).
As for tongues: "Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues." [1 Cor. 14.39]. You seem to be forbidding what Paul has told the church.
And you seem to be saying that what happened with me when the Holy Spirit came upon me is 'satanically inspired', and was 'energized by demon spirits'.
I love and respect so much of what you have to say here, and in fact look forward to it. But in this instance I am in total disagreement with you. In the above verse Paul is speaking to us the church. I am not posessed of a devil, and neither was my experience demonic. And when the Holy Spirit speaks through me in my prayers in my closet, it too is not of the devil.
May God continue to bless all you do.
Your brother in Christ. Roy.
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« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2003, 02:30:34 AM »

The best information I have seen on the issue of tongues is on another forum. http://www.botcw.com/talk/showthread.php?s=2543e4f0d099b61a64f977631307aceb&threadid=5514&perpage=15&pagenumber=3
This is a Great post. Royo I hope you read it. You need to read it.
It is very well done.
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John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
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« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2003, 02:49:19 AM »

To Left Coast.
Thank you for your concern. I read most of it, but it does not change what I believe. I have met and know more who believe as I do than those who wish to interpret it differently.
One thing I already knew, and see here also, is that not all see the truth the same. That is O.K.
If anyone wishes to think that when I get in prayer with my Father God, and pray in tongues, (in the Spirit, as paul also called it), that I am somehow demonically influenced, that is their choice to believe that. I know differently.

Blessings to you all.  Roy.
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« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2003, 03:54:40 AM »

I agree 100% with Dee L. McCroskey, nothing lacking about this study.

Amen

Brother Love Smiley
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THINGS THAT DIFFER By C.R. Stam
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http://www.geocities.com/protestantscot/ttd/ttd_chap1.html

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« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2003, 04:01:22 AM »

Here is another study by Dee L. McCroskey, that A4C posted on Am I Going To Heaven thread. I also agree with Dee L. McCroskey, 100% on this study.



Mark Sixteen
AND THE MODERN TWISTERS
By - Dee L. McCroskey

TURN to Mark chapter sixteen, the last six verses, and you will find a series of divine statements that rank among the most ravaged, and the most twisted and turned, of all Bible truths. Listening to the confusion over this passage, with some modern religionists insisting on water salvation and others claiming miraculous powers and wonders, one in reminded of the sign often seen over an iron-works door: “All kinds of twisting and turning done here.”
Some of these followings, such as the Campbellites, only go as far as verse 16 before their imaginations run out. So they run for the baptism tank to get saved, as they think, but decline to presume the powers and wonders of verse 17. But their more imaginative cousins, such as the common variety of Pentecostalist, get a far a verse 17. They lay claim to the talking in tongues mentioned here, but concede that something has gone amiss with their faith, so that they are not prepared to get serious about the snakes and poison in verse 18. The climax is finally reached, however, by the ultra fanatics, who go on to verse 18, drink poison, take rattle snakes into the pulpit with them and land in the hospital.
But what about these Scriptures in Mark sixteen? Here, as in all similar Scriptures, we must “rightly divide” the Word. (Memorize 2. Timothy 2:15 and 1. Corinthians 10:32. They are key Scriptures.) To understand such Scriptures as Mark sixteen, the very first thing is to determine who it is to whom the Lord is speaking. Is it His earthly people, Israel. or to the Gentiles, or to His Church? This is the first step in rightly dividing the Word, for God deals differently with each of these three companies . Not that we would abandon any Scripture, for Romans 15:4 says that whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that is, for application. But not all Scriptures were written directly to us. Let us be sure we are clear on that point, and we will be spared from error and confusion.
We will find the answer to our first question here in the 14th verse of Mark 16. It gives us the speaker and the ones spoken to. It says: “Afterward He appeared UNTO THE ELEVEN as they sat at meat.”
Here it is plainly not His church of today, but the little company of Hebrew disciples, representative of the Jewish remnant. It could not possibly have been to the church, for His church was not brought into existence until after His ascension to glory.
Then He tells them in verse 15: “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” These were the marching orders for the Jewish remnant of that day. The parallel passage in Matthew 28 speaks of baptizing and teaching nations. It looks forward to the time when “all power” will be given the Lord Jesus Christ, when He will come to judge the nations on earth and to set up His kingdom. But this passage in Mark is purely local, to the remnant of the time, as we see in the 20th verse. “They were soon dispersed and preached in all parts of the civilized world.

The Campbellites and their Water

Now we come to the much abused 16th verse, the special delight of the Campbellites (the so-called “Christian church” and the so-called “Church of Christ.”)
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” By wresting this verse out of its proper place, and doing the same to their other favorite one, Acts 2:38, the Campbellites preachers insist that water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. Their error is serious, for it denies the finished work of Christ on the cross of Calvary, and adds some puny work of man. The Scripture says, “Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:9).
I will give $1000.00 dollars to the first person who will show me one single verse of Scripture that plainly says a man will be damned if he is not baptized with water. This is not done in the spirit of gambling, but simply that it would easily be worth that to me to be set right if I am wrong. This offer still holds. If the Campbellite preacher be right let them step forth with such a Scripture.
Mark 16:16, even when wrested out of its Jewish setting and erroneously used as church truth, does not say that “he that is baptized not shall be damned.” The Spirit is very careful here to say only that “he that believeth not shall be damned.” That holds good in any age. Men always have to be saved by faith, and always will be. Because this Scripture was for the Jews of the dispersion, and water baptism was in order for them, as well as signs and wonders, it was needful for them to demonstrate true repentance by water immersion. But as far as salvation was concerned, believing on Christ was the essential thing.
This is proven by the repentant thief of the cross. He was not baptized, but he believed on the Lord, and acknowledged Him as Lord, and he went to glory with the Lord. The argument that he was unable to get baptized is weak and without any foundation in the Scriptures. “Not by works of righteousness which WE have done, but according to His mercy He saved Us” (Titus 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9).
A group of young Campbellite seminary students once attended a Bible meeting in Eugene, Oregon. With characteristic assumption of infallability they seized the first opportunity to project their doctrine of salvation by immersion. They were asked: “What about the case of a man who is convicted of his sins at a meeting and receives the Lord Jesus Christ as his Saviour, but on the way home he meets with an accident and is killed? What becomes of him?” The young men shook their head sadly and said: “It would be too bad; he should have gotten baptized immediately!” Thus as 1 Corinthians 1:17 says, the cross of Christ is “made of none effect.”
Now we come to the 17th verse in Mark 16, the favorite of the Pentecostal following. But they overlook one word, the work “shall.”
“And these signs SHALL follow them that believe: in My name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues.”
The awkward part here is that these miraculous signs SHALL follow them that believe, and he that believeth not shall be damned. It would, then, be very bad for any professed believer who could not talk in tongues if this Scripture were for today. It would prove that he had not yet attained a saving belief. But this is not all. In the 18th verse we find even more starling signs, which Christ said SHALL follow them
that believe:

Snakes and Poison

“They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”
Most of the professing miracle workers of today know that these signs DO NOT follow them. They know what a rattlesnakes will do to them, and they know what a dose of strychnine will do. And as for healing the sick, if it would really work they would be in constant demand everywhere. So they fall back on this weak and beggarly argument: “I believe a person could do these things if he had faith enough, and besides, I wouldn’t want to temp God by taking up a serpent or drinking poison unless necessary.”
But when is it every necessary, in the normal course of life, to take up serpents or drink poison? Note that these are “signs,” not antidotes to be used in case of accident. A “sign” was a demonstration to be put on, for the sake of those who looked on, that the Word might be confirmed. Nor was anything said about degrees of faith. The Lord guaranteed that these signs would follow them that believed. As Paul said, the Jews require a sign and God gave them signs.
“They went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and CONFIRMING THE WORD with signs following” (verse 20). Here we have the reason for all the miraculous gifts in apostolic days. The New Testament was only in the making and in lieu of His finished Word, God gave miraculous powers to His servants so as to confirm their divine authority. This kind of elementary confirmation came to an end with Acts 28:28, with the final turning to the Gentiles. The Word is completed now, and it is the only divine authority the man of faith needs.
The apostolic period when the Word was being compiled, and confirmed by signs, is covered by the book of Acts. “The very signs spoken of in Mark are fulfilled in the book of Acts. In the eight chapter of Acts, for instance, we read of Philip casting out devils, healing the lane and the palsied, and of the people believing and being baptized. In Acts 28:3 Paul is bitten by a venomous snake but suffered no ill effect, and proceeding to lay hands on the sick and heal them.
But today we have what Peter calls “present truth” for our guidance. This “present truth” is found in the church epistles, written by the Apostle Paul. One thing emphatically stressed in these Epistles, is that salvation is obtained by faith alone, faith in the finished work of Christ upon the cross. “I do not frustrate the grace on God.” writes Paul. If any works of ours are added to His glorious, atoning work on the cross, then Christ has died in vain. God’s way for the sinner is given us in Romans 10:9.
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

“Speaking the Truth in Love”

Posted By Brother Love Smiley
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THINGS THAT DIFFER By C.R. Stam
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http://www.geocities.com/protestantscot/ttd/ttd_chap1.html

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« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2003, 03:07:22 PM »

I agree 100% with Dee L. McCroskey, nothing lacking about this study.

Amen

Brother Love Smiley


Same here Brother Love Grin
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« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2003, 03:08:24 PM »

Here is another study by Dee L. McCroskey, that A4C posted on Am I Going To Heaven thread. I also agree with Dee L. McCroskey, 100% on this study.



Mark Sixteen
AND THE MODERN TWISTERS
By - Dee L. McCroskey

TURN to Mark chapter sixteen, the last six verses, and you will find a series of divine statements that rank among the most ravaged, and the most twisted and turned, of all Bible truths. Listening to the confusion over this passage, with some modern religionists insisting on water salvation and others claiming miraculous powers and wonders, one in reminded of the sign often seen over an iron-works door: “All kinds of twisting and turning done here.”
Some of these followings, such as the Campbellites, only go as far as verse 16 before their imaginations run out. So they run for the baptism tank to get saved, as they think, but decline to presume the powers and wonders of verse 17. But their more imaginative cousins, such as the common variety of Pentecostalist, get a far a verse 17. They lay claim to the talking in tongues mentioned here, but concede that something has gone amiss with their faith, so that they are not prepared to get serious about the snakes and poison in verse 18. The climax is finally reached, however, by the ultra fanatics, who go on to verse 18, drink poison, take rattle snakes into the pulpit with them and land in the hospital.
But what about these Scriptures in Mark sixteen? Here, as in all similar Scriptures, we must “rightly divide” the Word. (Memorize 2. Timothy 2:15 and 1. Corinthians 10:32. They are key Scriptures.) To understand such Scriptures as Mark sixteen, the very first thing is to determine who it is to whom the Lord is speaking. Is it His earthly people, Israel. or to the Gentiles, or to His Church? This is the first step in rightly dividing the Word, for God deals differently with each of these three companies . Not that we would abandon any Scripture, for Romans 15:4 says that whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that is, for application. But not all Scriptures were written directly to us. Let us be sure we are clear on that point, and we will be spared from error and confusion.
We will find the answer to our first question here in the 14th verse of Mark 16. It gives us the speaker and the ones spoken to. It says: “Afterward He appeared UNTO THE ELEVEN as they sat at meat.”
Here it is plainly not His church of today, but the little company of Hebrew disciples, representative of the Jewish remnant. It could not possibly have been to the church, for His church was not brought into existence until after His ascension to glory.
Then He tells them in verse 15: “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” These were the marching orders for the Jewish remnant of that day. The parallel passage in Matthew 28 speaks of baptizing and teaching nations. It looks forward to the time when “all power” will be given the Lord Jesus Christ, when He will come to judge the nations on earth and to set up His kingdom. But this passage in Mark is purely local, to the remnant of the time, as we see in the 20th verse. “They were soon dispersed and preached in all parts of the civilized world.

The Campbellites and their Water

Now we come to the much abused 16th verse, the special delight of the Campbellites (the so-called “Christian church” and the so-called “Church of Christ.”)
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” By wresting this verse out of its proper place, and doing the same to their other favorite one, Acts 2:38, the Campbellites preachers insist that water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. Their error is serious, for it denies the finished work of Christ on the cross of Calvary, and adds some puny work of man. The Scripture says, “Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:9).
I will give $1000.00 dollars to the first person who will show me one single verse of Scripture that plainly says a man will be damned if he is not baptized with water. This is not done in the spirit of gambling, but simply that it would easily be worth that to me to be set right if I am wrong. This offer still holds. If the Campbellite preacher be right let them step forth with such a Scripture.
Mark 16:16, even when wrested out of its Jewish setting and erroneously used as church truth, does not say that “he that is baptized not shall be damned.” The Spirit is very careful here to say only that “he that believeth not shall be damned.” That holds good in any age. Men always have to be saved by faith, and always will be. Because this Scripture was for the Jews of the dispersion, and water baptism was in order for them, as well as signs and wonders, it was needful for them to demonstrate true repentance by water immersion. But as far as salvation was concerned, believing on Christ was the essential thing.
This is proven by the repentant thief of the cross. He was not baptized, but he believed on the Lord, and acknowledged Him as Lord, and he went to glory with the Lord. The argument that he was unable to get baptized is weak and without any foundation in the Scriptures. “Not by works of righteousness which WE have done, but according to His mercy He saved Us” (Titus 4:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9).
A group of young Campbellite seminary students once attended a Bible meeting in Eugene, Oregon. With characteristic assumption of infallability they seized the first opportunity to project their doctrine of salvation by immersion. They were asked: “What about the case of a man who is convicted of his sins at a meeting and receives the Lord Jesus Christ as his Saviour, but on the way home he meets with an accident and is killed? What becomes of him?” The young men shook their head sadly and said: “It would be too bad; he should have gotten baptized immediately!” Thus as 1 Corinthians 1:17 says, the cross of Christ is “made of none effect.”
Now we come to the 17th verse in Mark 16, the favorite of the Pentecostal following. But they overlook one word, the work “shall.”
“And these signs SHALL follow them that believe: in My name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues.”
The awkward part here is that these miraculous signs SHALL follow them that believe, and he that believeth not shall be damned. It would, then, be very bad for any professed believer who could not talk in tongues if this Scripture were for today. It would prove that he had not yet attained a saving belief. But this is not all. In the 18th verse we find even more starling signs, which Christ said SHALL follow them
that believe:

Snakes and Poison

“They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”
Most of the professing miracle workers of today know that these signs DO NOT follow them. They know what a rattlesnakes will do to them, and they know what a dose of strychnine will do. And as for healing the sick, if it would really work they would be in constant demand everywhere. So they fall back on this weak and beggarly argument: “I believe a person could do these things if he had faith enough, and besides, I wouldn’t want to temp God by taking up a serpent or drinking poison unless necessary.”
But when is it every necessary, in the normal course of life, to take up serpents or drink poison? Note that these are “signs,” not antidotes to be used in case of accident. A “sign” was a demonstration to be put on, for the sake of those who looked on, that the Word might be confirmed. Nor was anything said about degrees of faith. The Lord guaranteed that these signs would follow them that believed. As Paul said, the Jews require a sign and God gave them signs.
“They went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and CONFIRMING THE WORD with signs following” (verse 20). Here we have the reason for all the miraculous gifts in apostolic days. The New Testament was only in the making and in lieu of His finished Word, God gave miraculous powers to His servants so as to confirm their divine authority. This kind of elementary confirmation came to an end with Acts 28:28, with the final turning to the Gentiles. The Word is completed now, and it is the only divine authority the man of faith needs.
The apostolic period when the Word was being compiled, and confirmed by signs, is covered by the book of Acts. “The very signs spoken of in Mark are fulfilled in the book of Acts. In the eight chapter of Acts, for instance, we read of Philip casting out devils, healing the lane and the palsied, and of the people believing and being baptized. In Acts 28:3 Paul is bitten by a venomous snake but suffered no ill effect, and proceeding to lay hands on the sick and heal them.
But today we have what Peter calls “present truth” for our guidance. This “present truth” is found in the church epistles, written by the Apostle Paul. One thing emphatically stressed in these Epistles, is that salvation is obtained by faith alone, faith in the finished work of Christ upon the cross. “I do not frustrate the grace on God.” writes Paul. If any works of ours are added to His glorious, atoning work on the cross, then Christ has died in vain. God’s way for the sinner is given us in Romans 10:9.
“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

“Speaking the Truth in Love”

Posted By Brother Love Smiley


Thanks Brother Love, AAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN!
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Galatians 4:16   Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
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