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| | |-+  revelation 6:9-11
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the piano boy
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« on: April 21, 2003, 01:25:09 AM »

Question: does revelation 6:9-11 teach the immortality of the soul? most orthodox christians think so . I have inserted an article that refutes this belief. I would like to hear your comments. it sounds pretty logical.
after reading it you might never believe in the immortality of the soul again.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Revelation 6: 9 - 11
9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the
souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the
witness work that they used to have. 10 And they cried with a loud
voice, saying: "Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining
from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?"
11 And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to
rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their
fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also
had been.
Does the above scripture prove that a "soul" survives the body? An
examination of the scripture should give the answer.
Underneath this altar are "the souls of those slaughtered because of
the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have."
What does this mean? These could not be disembodied souls—like those
believed in by the pagan Greeks. (Genesis 2:7; Ezekiel 18:4) Rather,
John knows that the soul, or life, is symbolized by the blood, and when
the priests at the ancient Jewish tabernacle slaughtered a sacrificial
animal, they sprinkled the blood "round about upon the altar" or poured
it "at the base of the altar of burnt offering." (Leviticus 3:2, 8, 13;
4:7; 17:6, 11, 12) Hence, the animal’s soul was closely identified with
the altar of sacrifice.
But why would the souls, or blood, of these particular servants of God
be seen underneath a symbolic altar in heaven? Because their deaths are
viewed as sacrificial.
All those who are begotten as spirit sons of God die a sacrificial
death. Because of the role they are to play in Jehovah’s heavenly Kingdom,
it is God’s will that they renounce and sacrifice any hope of life
everlasting on earth. In this respect, they submit to a sacrificial death
in behalf of Jehovah’s sovereignty. (Philippians 3:8-11; compare 2:17.)
This is true in a very real sense of those whom John saw under the
altar. They are anointed ones who in their day were martyred for their
zealous ministry in upholding Jehovah’s Word and sovereignty. Their "souls
[were] slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the
witness work [mar•ty•riŽan] that they used to have."
The scenario continues to unfold: "And they cried with a loud voice,
saying: ‘Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining
from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?’"
(Revelation 6:10) How can their souls, or blood, cry out for vengeance,
since the Bible shows that the dead are unconscious? (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
Well, did not righteous Abel’s blood cry out after Cain murdered him?
Jehovah then said to Cain: "What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s
blood is crying out to me from the ground." (Genesis 4:10, 11; Hebrews
12:24) It was not that Abel’s blood was literally uttering words.
Rather, Abel had died as an innocent victim, and justice called out for his
murderer to be punished.
Similarly, those Christian martyrs are innocent, and in justice they
must be avenged. (Luke 18:7, Cool The cry for vengeance is loud because
many thousands have thus died.—Compare Jeremiah 15:15, 16.

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Saved_4ever
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« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2003, 06:49:31 AM »

It sounds like it's from a JW site.  The translation is wrong and they are all messed up in their beliefs.  There is SO much more to "everlasting life" then revalations.  In fact Rev. would be the last place I would go to for that one, meaning because it both is the end of the bible it would be a last reffernce.

Are you a JW or thinking about converting to being one?
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the piano boy
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« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2003, 11:55:22 AM »

I have never been a jehovah's witness and i will never be one.
You did not address the question. trinitarians claim that in rev.6:9-11 that the "souls of those slaughtered" proves that the soul survives death.

But God said to cain 'your brother's blood cries out from the grave". does this mean that blood survives death. no! if you apply this to rev 6:-9-11 it also shoes that souls crying out doesnt mean that these souls survived death.

I Am a trinitarian. the translation is is not the issue. every translation including the nwt says the same thing in  rev 6:9-11.

please reply
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