Papal Address Confirming Evolution

[Tibby]

Nobody can "vote" Catholics out of Christianity. They are either Christians or they're not regardless of what any human being says. It's like a vote of whether God exists and the majority wins. The fact that you identify yourself as a Catholic before you identify yourself as a Christian, Tibby, shows where your attachments lie.

Where have I identify my self as a Catholic before a Christian? Am I posting in CATHOLICS Unite or CHRISTIANS Unite? The fact that I am here and I don’t post at any Catholic Boards should be enough to show you I see my self as a Christian First. It is just semantics, Catholic is just a word, it all means the same thing,. The only time I say I'm Catholic on this board is when the topic call for it, like when Catholics are being attacked for example. And most of the Catholics here are the same way I am. Stop fussing over semantics! Why do you have to use the word “Christian”? A word is a word, the power is in the connotation.

YOU are the ones who continued this topic, not us. You are the ones who first took this as a chance to attack Catholics. Those fact prove your anti-Catholic. You can claim to be fair all you want, but I have yet to see you attack Fundamentalism the way you are attacking Catholicism here. In fact, you attack your Christian brothers who claim to be Catholics more viscously then you have attacked the non-Christians on the board. Stop condemning us and they saying you are treating us equal to ever other Denomination. Everyone but you has caught on to the fact you are anti-Catholic, just come out and admit you have a strong anti-Catholic Prejudges, already! And please, for the love of God, stop picking fights over semantics!

[Heidi]

You are so defensive of the Catholic denomination, Tibby, that you can't look at it objectively. I can see the pro's and con's of any denomination and I have more than once brought up the problems of the protestant churches. Maybe you haven't seen those posts or maybe you're just not looking. I just don't hear much about being born again in the Catholic church and i'm not going to take back my opinion because you take it personally. No church is perfect and i think we have to be able to see that in order to rectify what needs to be rectified in them.

[ebia]

I just don't hear much about being born again in the Catholic church and i'm not going to take back my opinion because you take it personally.

Maybe thats because the Catholic (and similar) churches use different language to express these concepts.

You are very quick to point out that claiming to be born again doesn't mean someone is.  By the same token, just because someone doesn't use the phrase "born again" doesn't mean that they are not.

Catholic & protestant churches use very different language, often for very similar ideas.  They also often use the same word or phrase to mean very different things.  Unless you are willing to understand the other's language, you are doing nothing but attacking straw men.

[Tibby]

I look at it objectively. I don’t agree with the Mary doctrine, and I have strong feelings against how they dealt with the Reformation. . Yeah, you posted a few token posts against Protestants, just like when someone says “I’m not racist, but…” right before making a racist comment. It is a politically correct disclaimer to make everyone believe you aren’t prejudges. Who do you think your fooling? Maybe your self, but no one here. And you didn’t say a thing about all churches having problems till I brought up the fact that Catholics aren’t the only ones with problems! The came into this thread with one goal, to attack Catholics, and you have continued that theme for 9 pages now!

Edia- well said! That is why most Catholics blow off the Anti-Catholic propaganda. The anti-Catholics think it is about stubbornness, but the truth is this: The falsehood doesn’t come from the proof they are discrediting the Dagma with, it comes from the misquoting of the Dogma itself.

[Heidi]

I have said on this forum that in the past 3 months i have been angry at the Lutheran church for their baptismal doctrine. So no, it didn't come from "political correctness" or to "show" that I'm open-minded, nor did it come from the fact that you brought it up. In fact, i have been angrier at the Lutheran church than the catholic church until lately. So, no, Tibby, you do not know why i brought it up.

If you disagree with some of the practices of the Catholic church, then why are you angry at us for the same thing?

I'm tired of caustic and snide remarks and I will no longer put up with it. If you want to reply with snide remarks, that's your decision. I will no loger answer posts which contain them.

[Tibby]

I have said on this forum that in the past 3 months i have been angry at the Lutheran church for their baptismal doctrine. So no, it didn't come from "political correctness" or to "show" that I'm open-minded, nor did it come from the fact that you brought it up. In fact, i have been angrier at the Lutheran church than the catholic church until lately. So, no, Tibby, you do not know why i brought it up.

Allow me to quote a piece of my last post, READ IT this time:

And you didn’t say a thing about all churches having problems till I brought up the fact that Catholics aren’t the only ones with problems!

You did mention the Lutheran, AFTER I said the Catholic Church shares the same problems as other Churches.

If you disagree with some of the practices of the Catholic church, then why are you angry at us for the same thing?

I am perfectly fine with someone disagreeing with the Catholic church. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing. It is the merciless thrashing I don’t like.

I'm tired of caustic and snide remarks and I will no longer put up with it. If you want to reply with snide remarks, that's your decision. I will no loger answer posts which contain them.’

Snide remarks? You’ve lost me. What “snide” remarks did I make? By snide, do you mean “Making Heidi angry” by any chance? Oh, that WAS a snider remark, wasn’t it?


Tell us about the Lutheran problem of yours?  How did you run into this problem? What issued do you have with the baptismal doctrine?

[Heidi]

Even remarks like "making Heidi angry" are snide. They are belittling. The tone of your posts has been defensive and snappy. You have assumed things very quickly instead of asking what my motives are. Orders like "READ it next time", assuming i didn't read it. I have seen none of your responses to my posts as being respectful to me. Even when I suggested you look to God for answers, I got a sarcastic response. I'm tired of it.

 My attack of the Catholic church is not an attack on you. I'm only commenting on the catholic church for the same reason i am the Lutheran church. I WANT PEOPLE TO BE SAVED and i don't feel that the catholic and the Lutheran churches are perpetuating the message of salvation the way Jesus meant it. If that's true, then there are millions of people who think they're saved but they're not. I feel for them. But unless the message of salvation is given prominence in ANY church, most people will continue to think they're saved through babptism. My anger is at the "teachers of the law" who don't want to re-examine their doctrine even if it's not scriptural because they don't want to upset the apple cart. A church is as corrupt as the people in it. But when the hierarchy is as grand as the catholic church, there simply is more room for corruption.

I want to elaborate on the Lutheran church but i'm awfully tired right now. I jsut hope that we can disagree respectfully. My gripes about the catholic church are not aimed at you, Tibby.

[ebia]

My anger is at the "teachers of the law" who don't want to re-examine their doctrine even if it's not scriptural because they don't want to upset the apple cart. A church is as corrupt as the people in it. But when the hierarchy is as grand as the catholic church, there simply is more room for corruption.

Do you realise how arrogant this sounds?
The Catholic church, the Lutheran Church, the Othodox Church(s), etc, have built up their doctrine and dogma based on centuries of careful thought and analysis of scripture by some of the greatest minds of the last 2000 years, and (in their opinion) none of it is contrary to scripture, but they are supposed to throw it all away because you come along and tell them they've got it wrong all along?

[Saved_4ever]

Tell me what's biblical about lent?
Why do some catholics still feel thay can't eat meat on Friday?(this is also glaringly opposed to scripture 1Tim4:1-5)
Why do they still claim priests are not to marry? (refference same scripture) and I don't want to hear about the random ones that allow them to marry.  If it weren't "church doctrine" they wouldn't have to have made it publially known that they were reconsidering that issue after the huge sex scandal.

There are three simple questions of things contrary to scripture.  (I guess those minds weren't so special after all.)

I could name a lot more but I'm just going with these three.  I was also thinking about the comment from knox about the southern baptist convention.  They're pretty pathetic and I wouldn't consider them baptists really.  The biggest problem I have with both the RCC/Orthodox and protestant churches is their headship garbage, where one person(s) make up the rules that they all have to "officially" agree with.  It's unscriputral.  Every church is responsible unto themselves and having Christ as their head.  You can't show me anywhere in scripture where it shows there being a central authority other than Jesus Christ.

[ebia]

Tell me what's biblical about lent?

It's a time of preparation for Easter, and a time to remember Christs' temptation in the wilderness, apart from a host of other things.  But more to the point what's unbiblical about lent?  The onus is on you to demostrate that something is unbiblical.

Why do some catholics still feel thay can't eat meat on Friday?(this is also glaringly opposed to scripture 1Tim4:1-5)

Its a form of fasting, I believe, which is not what Paul is refering to there.

Why do they still claim priests are not to marry? (refference same scripture) and I don't want to hear about the random ones that allow them to marry.  If it weren't "church doctrine" they wouldn't have to have made it publially known that they were reconsidering that issue after the huge sex scandal.

It's not a doctrine.  It is a discipline.  I suggest you read up on the difference, which is huge.

There are three simple questions of things contrary to scripture.  (I guess those minds weren't so special after all.)

They aren't because you haven't understood them.

You can't show me anywhere in scripture where it shows there being a central authority other than Jesus Christ.

St Paul springs to mind.

[Tibby]

Heidi- reread your first post. Came on a little strong, don’t you think? If you don’t want to fight, then do not attack. I mean, you said “Catholics worship the church, the virgin Mary and the law.” Kind of snide, don’t you think?

Saved, we already went through the Marriage thing. There are a few married priests the Catholic Church. It is a Personal Choice. Most of them would rather spend all there time in the Church, helping the flock, not running around working at a second job, or making the Church play for a family.

Edia, well spoken, again. Not only are you wise, but also more tactful then anyone on either side who has posted on this thread. It is a shame they are just going to ignore your reply and keep on believing what they want.

[Heidi]

Tibby,
What if it's true that the catholics worhip the virgin Mary and the Pope? I think that no matter how I say it, you're going to take offense at it. Even if i sugar- coated the way i said it, the very IDEA that I think the catholics worship the pope and the virgin Mary is what angers you. Is that my fault? I just want to know what's TRUE more than i care about who's right or wrong. That's why I search all things. How are we going to find out the truth without questioning? Truth-seekers are willing to entertain ALL sides of an issue, not just what they want to believe. I used to think that the Catholic church was ruled by the holy Spirit. But now i have my doubts. How am I going to alleviate these doubts without questioning? You have said that you look at both sides of the Catholic church. Then why do you attack us for doing the same thing? Jesus was VERY bold, and sometimes harsh the way He spoke. Those who were convicted were angry at His words. Those who wanted to learn, opened their ears. The important thing is the willingness to get to the truth. I'm sorry if you were offended, I certainly have not meant to offend you. Churches are simply institutions. They are not us. Attacking a church doesn't mean that we are being attacked.

[Heidi]

As for "teachers of the law", Jesus was the angriest at the teachers of the law precisely because it is their RESPONSIBILITY to make sure they are passing along Christ's meaning. It sounds like you think, Ebia, that just because somebody studies in a sminary and is ordained by a church,   he is always right. That is idol worship. I'm glad that Luther had the courage to go up against these "teachers of the law" druing the reformation. Otherwise, these "teachers of the law" would still be passing on non-scriptural teachings. You can put your faith in these teachers of the law. I prefer to put my faith in Christ.

If I sound angry, it's because I am angry at the teachers of the law. There is so much corruption and self deception going on in them in the name of Christ. I expect that all of us are into self-decpetion and and some kind of corruption but when somebody sets himself up as an "expert" on Christianity, he owes it to himself and the people he's placed in his hands to make sure that he is passing on the right message. That is one reason why I think Christ is harsher toward them more than humble sinners.

[Knox]

I just want to know what's TRUE more than i care about who's right or wrong. That's why I search all things. How are we going to find out the truth without questioning? Truth-seekers are willing to entertain ALL sides of an issue, not just what they want to believe. I used to think that the Catholic church was ruled by the holy Spirit. But now i have my doubts. How am I going to alleviate these doubts without questioning?

Wouldn't it make a whole lot of sense, Heidi to take your questions to a Catholic discussion board? Here is a search I did
on Google using the search terms 'catholic discussion board'. I'm sure the good Christians at any of these boards would be more than happy to discuss Roman Catholicism with you, and answer any questions you might have.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=catholic+discussion+boards&btnG=Google+Search

[Heidi]

I have actually thought about that, Knox, but i don't think it would do any good. I've been trying that with the Lutheran church but they aren't willing to discuss it. They think because they're all experts that they must be right. That mindset is extremely difficult to penetrate. The Catholic church is a lot bigger than the Lutheran church and the pope is considered the Holy Father by the congregation.  How humble do you think they will be? Teachers of the law are human beings like the rest of us. Unfortunately, it is they who do not think so. That is, of course, why Jesus was so angry at them.

However, I might be led to try to discuss it in the hopes that there will be a few who are interested in seeing another viewpoint. It petrifies me to do this, precisely because of comments about how arrogant it is for a person like me to DARE question an "authority" on Christ. Never mind that those authorities are human like the rest of us and capable of misinterpreting scripture, just like me. They couldn't possibly be wrong. Who are the arrogant ones?