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Soldier4Christ
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« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2007, 09:58:16 AM »

you are just plain wrong on that one roger
God said, "I do understand you Bob."

You are really quick to jump and think the negative of everyone. I didn't say anything other than that. Read it again, I said "God does understand what is being said." I think that it is you that seems to be having a hard time understanding, not God.

BTW why do you use the word prophet in your user name?

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« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2007, 03:24:06 PM »

Paul mentions confusion in these verses.  If one single man speaks to God in an unknown language and then turns around and that one man tells you what the conversation is about, how easy is it for that one man to lead a congregation astray? 

Paul says that in order to edify the church

1 Cor. 14:13  Wherefore let him that speaketh in and unknown tongue pray the he may interpret.

He seemed to think the danger you warn of is to be prayed for.

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Soldier4Christ
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« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2007, 03:36:06 PM »

Yes it is still very easy to deceive in such a case but this is why God tells us in 1Cor 14

1Co 14:9  So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.


The edification that is spoken of is to be through words that are easy to understand.


You still have my question to answer:

BTW why do you use the word prophet in your user name?
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« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2007, 04:21:16 PM »

Because that is what God  Almighty the Father
of Jesus Christ called me.

"....My servants the prophets."

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Brother Jerry
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« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2007, 04:42:58 PM »

Yes Bob you have left out the rest of chapter 14 which is concerning speaking in tongues as well. 

Skip down just a little from vs 13 you cited.  Take a look at verse 19
"Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue."
Now why do you think that Paul would say that it is better to speak 5 meager words that someone can understand and be taught to others than to speak 10,000 words that no one else can understand?

The answer is back in verse 4
He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that phophesieth edifieth the church.
Now look down at verse 12 and you will see what we should strive for
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

Now keep in mind that Paul's use of the word church here is similar to that of what Christ's use was...the church is the body of Christ.  We are not to edify the church we go visit every weekend.  The building in which we have our services...but Jesus Christ. 

We can even look down at verse 16
Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
Even here Paul is asking the question that while you are speaking in an unknown language (in tongues) and claim to be giving thanks, asking for blessings, and praising Jesus, how is the unlearned person...which means the unsaved, to "say Amen", meaning receive Jesus, if he does not understand what is being said and thus does not understand what is going on?  This is a retorical question that Paul is asking.  The answer is that this unsaved person has no way of knowing or hearing the Word if it is spoken in an unknown language.
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I am unlike most fathers.  What I would like my children to have more of is crowns to lay at Jesus feet.
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« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2007, 05:00:02 PM »

Because that is what God  Almighty the Father
of Jesus Christ called me.

"....My servants the prophets."



I believe that you are referring to the phrase from the Book of Revelations. He was not calling all of His servants prophets.

Rev 11:18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Eph 4:11  And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;


A prophet is a foreteller, a person illuminated, inspired or instructed by God to announce future events. Do you claim to foretell the future?

We are told in 1 Cor 14:

1Co 14:37  If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Yet you seem to have a problem with 1 Cor 14.

 
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David_james
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« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2007, 05:44:25 PM »

I still don't understand what speaking in tongues is, also what is edification? Is speaking in tongues necessary?
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« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2007, 05:56:47 PM »

I will start with the easy one.
Edification: Intellectual, moral, or spiritual improvement; enlightenment.
By edification the in these verse the Bible is talking about a person making spiritual improvements.
Paul states that those speaking in tongues is edifying themselves and not the church... attempting to improve themselves and not the church.

Now there are two ways to look at speaking in tongues.  The Biblical way and the common way it is thought of today in primarily Charismatic churches.  When the Bible uses the term tongues as in plural it is speaking of different languages.  The term "speaking in tongues" today is referred to an event in which the Holy Spirit moves upon a person or group of people and they begin to speak in an unknown language.  These folks believe that they are speaking to God and in a language that only God understands.  To anyone else it sounds like gibberish.  These people cannot even understand each other.  It is only to God.

This is not a Biblical practice and the verses explained above show this.  Keep in mind that I am not saying in any way shape or form that people that practice this are not saved or anything of that nature, only that this practice is not Biblically sound.

Hope that helps
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Brother Jerry

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I am like most fathers.  I, like most, want more for my children than I have.

I am unlike most fathers.  What I would like my children to have more of is crowns to lay at Jesus feet.
David_james
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« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2007, 06:07:26 PM »

Yes, that helped. Thank you
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« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2007, 08:29:52 PM »

roger
RE:  reply 12
the apparent error i made will not happen again
now that i know how to use the quote feature.

I know you will forgive me.
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« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2007, 09:03:59 PM »


I believe that you are referring to the phrase from the Book of Revelations. He was not calling all of His servants prophets.

Rev 11:18  And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Eph 4:11  And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;


1Co 14:37  If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
Yet you seem to have a problem with 1 Cor 14.

Contrary to your belief.
 I was not quoting that verse.
I made reference to an audible voice of God
that was spoken in the early 1980's
while i was being ejected from a so called prayer meeting.
The full quote is, "This is the way you have always treated My servants the prophets."
He was speaking about the way they were treating me.

As for 1Cor 14:37   I am both a prophet and spiritual and do acknowledge that the writings of Paul are the  commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Next time you have a pressing question do not cloak it with "BTW".


BTW questions do not demand an answer.
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« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2007, 09:37:26 PM »

Quote
The full quote is, "This is the way you have always treated My servants the prophets."
He was speaking about the way they were treating me.


If you are the only one that heard the voice it would seem to me that "you" are the one it was directed at about the treatment of others.

 
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« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2007, 10:05:22 PM »

FIVE WORDS OF PROPHESY OR TEN THOUSAND WORDS IN TONGUES  ??

1 Cor 14 has the answers for the “charismatic” who is seeking Christian maturity.  (IT’S TIME TO GROW UP!)


1 Cor 14:18-20
18   I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all;
19   yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding  (NOUS), that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.  (STRONGS # 3563)
20   Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature (NKJ)  GROW UP !!  (STRONGS # 5424)        (malice - the opposite of excellence - the vicious character)

3563  nous-  UNDERSTANDING
1) the mind, comprising alike the faculties of perceiving and understanding and those of feeling, judging, determining
a) the intellectual faculty, the understanding
b) reason in the narrower sense, as the capacity for spiritual truth, the higher powers of the soul, the faculty of perceiving divine things, of recognizing goodness and of hating evil
c) the power of considering and judging soberly, calmly and impartially
2) a particular mode of thinking and judging, that is, thoughts, feelings, purposes, desires

5424  phren-  UNDERSTANDING  -  ONLY HERE IN N.T.
1) the midriff or diaphragm, the parts of the heart
2) the mind; the faculty of perceiving and judging

1 Cor 2:14-16
14   But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15   But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
16   For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind  (NOUS !)  Christ.  (STRONGS # 3563)   (NKJ)


Tongues   - for Paul are prayers - they only praise, worship, give thanks and adore God – v2a -  i.e. speak to God.


1 Cor 14:2
2   For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.  (NKJ)

“ -  v16-17  - bless with the Spirit - giving thanks.

1 Cor 14:16-17
16   Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say?
17   For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.  (NKJ)

                                             Any correct spiritual interpretation of tongues must reflect this fact !

An interpretation of tongues must never be prophesy - it can only be prayer !


Public tongues are only for the unbeliever or uninformed - v22

1 Cor 14:22
22   Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.(NKJ)

Therefore, when any number of born again Christians gather to pray, there should be no tongue speaking
 

 Self interpretation of tongues is not scriptural –  (this is a common error)


              v13  - pray that he (another) may interpret (+ 1 Cor 12:10)

1 Cor 14:13
13   Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.   (he = someone else) (NKJ)

1 Cor 12:7, 10
7   But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
10 …to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.  (NKJ)


              v 26 – each has a an interpretation

1 Cor 14:26
26   How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each (one) of you has a psalm,  has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.  (NKJ)

              v28 – no interpreter – keep silent      no self interpretation !

1 Cor 14:28
But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.  (Silently)


Tongues are for self edification  -  v4  - 

1 Cor 14:4

4      He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.(NKJ)



Tongues must be orderly  -  v 27 – each in turn  v33 – not a God of confusion

1 Cor 14:27
27   If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.

1 Cor 14:33
33    For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.  (NKJ)



Prophecy saves the unbeliever  -  vs24-25                            

1 Cor 14:23-25
23          Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 
24   But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all.
25   And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.    (NKJ)


Prophesy must be judged  - v29


1 Cor 14:29-32
29   Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.
30   But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
31   For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
32   And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.  (NKJ)

However brethren, whatever tongues is, The Lord knows and left this specific instruction for us:

"Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues." 1 Corinthians 14:39 NKJV


Prophesy is not simply fortune telling, brothers , it is also special messages from God, often uttered through human spokesmen, which indicate the divine will for mankind on earth and in heaven.
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"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.  John 5:24  NKJV
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« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2007, 10:35:39 AM »

FIVE WORDS OF PROPHESY OR TEN THOUSAND WORDS IN TONGUES  ??

1 Cor 14 has the answers for the “charismatic” who is seeking Christian maturity.  (IT’S TIME TO GROW UP!)


1 Cor 14:18-20
18   I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all;
19   yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding  (NOUS), that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.  (STRONGS # 3563)
20   Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature (NKJ)  GROW UP !!  (STRONGS # 5424)        (malice - the opposite of excellence - the vicious character)

3563  nous-  UNDERSTANDING
1) the mind, comprising alike the faculties of perceiving and understanding and those of feeling, judging, determining
a) the intellectual faculty, the understanding
b) reason in the narrower sense, as the capacity for spiritual truth, the higher powers of the soul, the faculty of perceiving divine things, of recognizing goodness and of hating evil
c) the power of considering and judging soberly, calmly and impartially
2) a particular mode of thinking and judging, that is, thoughts, feelings, purposes, desires

5424  phren-  UNDERSTANDING  -  ONLY HERE IN N.T.
1) the midriff or diaphragm, the parts of the heart
2) the mind; the faculty of perceiving and judging

1 Cor 2:14-16
14   But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15   But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
16   For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind  (NOUS !)  Christ.  (STRONGS # 3563)   (NKJ)


Tongues   - for Paul are prayers - they only praise, worship, give thanks and adore God – v2a -  i.e. speak to God.


1 Cor 14:2
2   For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.  (NKJ)

“ -  v16-17  - bless with the Spirit - giving thanks.

1 Cor 14:16-17
16   Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say?
17   For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.  (NKJ)

                                             Any correct spiritual interpretation of tongues must reflect this fact !

An interpretation of tongues must never be prophesy - it can only be prayer !


Public tongues are only for the unbeliever or uninformed - v22

1 Cor 14:22
22   Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.(NKJ)

Therefore, when any number of born again Christians gather to pray, there should be no tongue speaking
 

 Self interpretation of tongues is not scriptural –  (this is a common error)


              v13  - pray that he (another) may interpret (+ 1 Cor 12:10)

1 Cor 14:13
13   Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.   (he = someone else) (NKJ)

1 Cor 12:7, 10
7   But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
10 …to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.  (NKJ)


              v 26 – each has a an interpretation

1 Cor 14:26
26   How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each (one) of you has a psalm,  has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.  (NKJ)

              v28 – no interpreter – keep silent      no self interpretation !

1 Cor 14:28
But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.  (Silently)


Tongues are for self edification  -  v4  - 

1 Cor 14:4

4      He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.(NKJ)



Tongues must be orderly  -  v 27 – each in turn  v33 – not a God of confusion

1 Cor 14:27
27   If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.

1 Cor 14:33
33    For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.  (NKJ)



Prophecy saves the unbeliever  -  vs24-25                            

1 Cor 14:23-25
23          Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 
24   But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all.
25   And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.    (NKJ)


Prophesy must be judged  - v29


1 Cor 14:29-32
29   Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.
30   But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
31   For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
32   And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.  (NKJ)

However brethren, whatever tongues is, The Lord knows and left this specific instruction for us:

"Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues." 1 Corinthians 14:39 NKJV


Prophesy is not simply fortune telling, brothers , it is also special messages from God, often uttered through human spokesmen, which indicate the divine will for mankind on earth and in heaven.

a big fat....

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« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2007, 11:59:08 PM »

Dear brother Gerry,

I have read both your articles and noticed that you have chosen only those texts which support your argument which, by the way is incorrect in information. It was not Peter who spoke in tongues in Cornelius' home but those of Cornelius' household. I could not accept your argument concerning speaking in tongues on the basis of the selectivity of your references which, I might add, I feel you interpret to your own ends. Put it forward again and be more conclusive in your evidence.

Love,

Kerry.
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