Faithfulness in marriage.

[Firelight]

Quoting foc:  If we do WILLFULLY apostate ourselves from this covenant, Hewbrews shows that there is no sacrifice remaining for our sin from that point.
If the spouse willfully apostates themselves from the marriage covenant.....it is in perfect agreement that Christ has permitted an exception that ends this covenant entirely.

Just so we're on the same page... I understand this apostasy to mean, in essence, the person is NOW renouncing the Blood of Jesus that they once had genuine faith in as the only means of their salvation... they truly have a regenerated heart.

I can't imagine the heart condition of a person that is in that situation... of having TRULY known the riches of God's glory,  to then renounce the Blood that saves them.   Once this person REFUSES to trust,  there is no other way of salvation.   I think the person who finds themselves truly  'apostate'  is extremely hardened,  and would find it the closest thing to impossible,  to overcome the bondage to ever trust again.   But... IF they could... I believe Jesus would receive them back into His grace. 

We are saved by His faithfulness. (In the Revelation, He is given the title~ 'Faithful and True'.)

[-foc-]

Just so we're on the same page... I understand this apostasy to mean, in essence, the person is NOW renouncing the Blood of Jesus that they once had genuine faith in as the only means of their salvation... they truly have a regenerated heart.

Exactly....renouncing is just what apostacy seems to be.
When we look at Hebrews, and a study of the times, we see that some Jewish converts were pretty much doing this to keep from being persecuted.
Paul says in Acts, that he caused men to blaspheme even, before his conversion, which indicates that bringing about their 'apostacy' towards this covenant and our Lords sacrifice (which I personally believe was a torment to Paul, knowing what he caused his own brethren to do before he learned the truth)

I can't imagine the heart condition of a person that is in that situation... of having TRULY known the riches of God's glory,  to then renounce the Blood that saves them.   Once this person REFUSES to trust,  there is no other way of salvation.   I think the person who finds themselves truly  'apostate'  is extremely hardened,  and would find it the closest thing to impossible,  to overcome the bondage to ever trust again.   But... IF they could... I believe Jesus would receive them back into His grace. 

We are saved by His faithfulness. (In the Revelation, He is given the title~ 'Faithful and True'.)

Now, let me ask, are you going with Gods word in this matter, or your 'gut feeling' ?

Hewbrews warnings werent written in a vacuum...they were written to Jewish converts who, because of persecution to them and their families, were turning away from the faith...read chapters 6 and 10 and then do a quick study of the time...there should be a lot on the internet you can read on this.

Im not OSAS, so we may not see eye to eye on this ifyou are....but the point is that some claim that nothing we can do can remove us from the sacrifce of His blood....perpetually and unconditionally "saved".
While I believe the scripture that NOTHING can 'remove' us from His grasp...no NT scripture ever states that WE cannot apostate ourselves of our own free will...and the scripture DOES show that we CAN do this in its warnings against falling away.

One does not 'fall' from something it has not attained.
I personally believe the scripture as a whole in this matter.
While nothing can take us from His hand....WE have the choice to jump from it...to fall away, for whatever reason.

Because of Peter I dont believe this happens in a moment of fear and doubt, in simply saying we dont know Him...but in purposeful, intentional rejecting and renouncing of what we had begun with Him...with His covenant.

Folks dont have to agree with me, but scripture presents it as true.

This falls in perfect alignment with His words in Matt 5:32 and 19:9....that harlotry (adultery/apostacy) against ones marital is cause for divorce.


adulteress
G3428
μοιχαλίς
moichalis
Thayer Definition:
1) an adulteress
2) as the intimate alliance of God with the people of Israel was likened to a marriage, those who relapse into idolatry are said to commit adultery or play the harlot
2a) fig. equiv. to faithless to God, unclean, apostate

[Firelight]

While nothing can take us from His hand....WE have the choice to jump from it...to fall away, for whatever reason.

Because of Peter I dont believe this happens in a moment of fear and doubt, in simply saying we dont know Him...but in purposeful, intentional rejecting and renouncing of what we had begun with Him...with His covenant.

Folks dont have to agree with me, but scripture presents it as true.

This falls in perfect alignment with His words in Matt 5:32 and 19:9....that harlotry (adultery/apostacy) against ones marital is cause for divorce.

The focus of our salvation is in this part of your quote: 'While nothing can take us from His hand....WE have the choice to jump from it...to fall away, for whatever reason.'

Even IF one DOES walk away from the Lord... HE remains faithful.  He does not 'divorce' Himself from us,  nor find another 'wife'.   Rather,   He let's us make our painful (especially to Him) choices,   and works with us to help us see the error of our way. And when we do... welcomes us back into His loving grace.

[-foc-]

The focus of our salvation is in this part of your quote: 'While nothing can take us from His hand....WE have the choice to jump from it...to fall away, for whatever reason.'

Even IF one DOES walk away from the Lord... HE remains faithful.  He does not 'divorce' Himself from us,  nor find another 'wife'.   Rather,   He let's us make our painful (especially to Him) choices,   and works with us to help us see the error of our way. And when we do... welcomes us back into His loving grace.

The problem with this theology is that God was 'faithful' even before this covenant.
Do you believe taht God WASNT faithful to Israel in the previous covenant?
Of course He was....and this faithfulness does not alter the fact that that covenant was indeed finally ended.

Also, you still have to deal with CLEAR, DECISIVE warnings about falling away.
One doesnt fall from a height that one never attained....and I dont buy into this deception that the warnings are for 'show' as some seem to teach.

The fact is that Gods word in Hebrews 6 and 10 presents some that come to into this covenant and are indeed sanctified by His blood who do, clearly of their own accord and own free will, fall away from that state and there 'remains no sacrifice left' for their sins.

I personaly choose not to make these things allegory and parables as they are not presented in any such manner. They are clear warnings given to those who ARE IN the church...aka 'christian'....

I beg to differ friend...blaspheme His Holy Spirit and rest assured you WILL find yourself 'divorced' (apostate).

[Firelight]

The problem with this theology is that God was 'faithful' even before this covenant.
Do you believe taht God WASNT faithful to Israel in the previous covenant?
Of course He was....and this faithfulness does not alter the fact that that covenant was indeed finally ended.

My point IS and HAS BEEN,  that God is FAITHFUL.   (YOU are the one implying He is not... that HE allows remarriage after divorce.)  His divorce from Israel did NOT change that,  it did NOT seperate His bond from them.   To twist scripture to say it has,  and that divorce and remarriage are permitted today because of it~  is ERROR.

Again,  the old covenant of the law was a temporary 'tool' to show us our need of a savior.   It facilitated the new covenant of 'faith in Christ'.   It's not an 'allegory' of marriage.   And it most definately does not provide 'loopholes'.

I beg to differ friend...blaspheme His Holy Spirit and rest assured you WILL find yourself 'divorced' (apostate).

Assigning the same definition to both 'apostate' and 'divorce'  does not provide the 'loophole' of remarriage you imply it does.   Even if one becomes apostate,  it does NOT change the faithfulness of God... and if it were POSSIBLE for the apostate to return to Him,  God would most definately receive them.

[Soldier4Christ]

foc

They are clear warnings given to those who ARE IN the church...aka 'christian'....

Simply because they are in the church does not mean that they are Christian.

____________________

Brothers and Sisters,

Let's be very careful here that we don't get carried away with this subject. It will not get to the point of accusations, name calling or making determinations of anyones salvation or it will be locked and respective warnings given.

[-foc-]

My point IS and HAS BEEN,  that God is FAITHFUL.   (YOU are the one implying He is not.

Sorry, I am implying nor stating no  such thing.
If you believe I am, then you arent comprehending what is being stated.

God CAN remain faithful even if man is not.
This does not require God to keep an apostate. Do you understand that concept or not?
REad Hebrews 6 and 10 and take off the doctrinal lenses when you do.
Those warnings are not a joke, nor are they meaningless

.. that HE allows remarriage after divorce.) 

PROVE to me that He doesnt.
Not with simply presenting that adultery is committed upon remarriage in certain cases....but SHOW me the money.....GIVE me precise scripture that PROVES that remarriage is forbidden.

i eagerly await your response.

His divorce from Israel did NOT change that,  it did NOT seperate His bond from them.   To twist scripture to say it has,  and that divorce and remarriage are permitted today because of it~  is ERROR.

(edited out, for disrespect to other forum members. Moderator)

I can provide from scripture a covenant put away with an adulterous nation and a new 'bride' taken.
What do you have as evidence/ proof for your belief except a few passages that are cleared up with 'except for whoredom' ?

Again,  the old covenant of the law was a temporary 'tool' to show us our need of a savior.   It facilitated the new covenant of 'faith in Christ'.   It's not an 'allegory' of marriage.   And it most definately does not provide 'loopholes'.

I know precisely what the old covenant was..thank you very much.
What it was does not negate what it did and what it represents..

Sure it is an allegory of marriage.

Do you even understand what 'marriage' is? what it is representative of?
Marriage IS representative of our relationship with our God and His covenants to us.

I submit your failure to understand this is probably where your error possibly begins.

Assigning the same definition to both 'apostate' and 'divorce'  does not provide the 'loophole' of remarriage you imply it does.   

Im sorry, I need no 'loophole'..i have the direct words of Jesus Christ (aka GOD) Himself......EXCEPT for harlotry....

Even if one becomes apostate,  it does NOT change the faithfulness of God... and if it were POSSIBLE for the apostate to return to Him,  God would most definately receive them.

You seem to be presenting what you WISH to believe as opposed to what Gods clear word states plainly.
I suggest you read again Hebrews 6 and 10 and see what GOD says on this matter.

God being faithful does not mean that God must 'keep' an apostate.
You seem to not be grasping this fact at all.

God is also 'faithful' to be Judge as well as Savior.

[-foc-]

foc


Simply because they are in the church does not mean that they are Christian.

The text is clear enough...


====================================================
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
(Heb 6:6)

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
(Heb 10:26)


Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
(Heb 10:29)

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
(Heb 6:4)
===================================================================


These are not men who were never part of His church.

These had repented as proven by the text.
They were 'sanctified' by the blood of the covenant as proven by the text
Their sins were covered by the sacrifice as proven by the text.
They were "made partakers of the Holy Spirit"

This hardly sounds like a man who hasnt made a proclaimation as a christian.
Given the rest of Heb 10 I believe its safe to assume that the writer is speaking to those who ARE born again and in fellowship...warning them against this type of apostacy.

Lets allow the text to present what it does and not let personal doctrine cloud the issue.

Brothers and Sisters,

Let's be very careful here that we don't get carried away with this subject. It will not get to the point of accusations, name calling or making determinations of anyones salvation or it will be locked and respective warnings given.

You wont get these accusations from me, Im remarried while my former spouse lives.

[Firelight]

~foc~

I've stated my views based on scripture (Galatians),  and hold those truthes to be valid.   I find your last couple responses inflamitory and disrespectful, at best. 

I'm new to ChristiansUnite,  and rather like the forum.   I won't risk warnings or banning, responding to your hurtful remarks. 

May you prosper as your soul prospers.   

[-foc-]

One of the most rewawrding studies I've done has been in the book of Galatians... I'm still 'feasting' there.      

Chapter 3 is  most enlightening in teaching what the 'old economy' was.    Verse 19 states the law was 'added' temporarily, to act as a teacher showing the impossibility of human 'sin natures' to keep the law~  that we desperately needed a redeemer.    However,  people where 'kept' under the law (that included a 'measure' of mercy)...  until faith was revealed through Christ Jesus (vs22-23). 

The promise  made to Abraham  (that in his 'seed' (Jesus) would be his inheritance)  was given to him 430 years BEFORE the law was given.   Rather than over riding Abraham's promise,  the temporary giving of the law helped facilitate it. 

I understand Galatians to show us that law was intented to be temporary, showed us our need for redemption,  and ushered in the 'economy of faith in Christ Jesus'.   This was God's plan of salvation all along,  the plan of promise (given to Abraham).

Ive already been thru Galatian and the NT going on 300 times at this point, so I understand that from the very beginning that God knew this first covenant was not permanent.

That fact does not nullify what occurred.
Gods foreknowledge does not do away with what transpired concerning that covenant being put awar for His 'beloved's playing the harlot.

Foreknowledge or not, that covenant with that adulteryous nation was put away, fully and finally broken by God Himself (zech 11, if memory serves)

Does God having foreknowledge that Lucifer would fall negate that he did ?
No, it does not. God is all-knowing, He knew Lucifer would do just what he did....Gods knowing this beforehand did not alter what occurred.
Gods plan that He had in place all along does not nullify what DID happen ...that Israel played the perpetual harlot and so that covenant was put away with her.
This is what the context of the whole of scripture provides...

In fact, I think this confirms that harlotry is just cause to end a marriage thus enabling one a remarry another.
God KNEW beforehand that He was making a covenant with a nation that would play the harlot and had already decided that this covenant would be put away well  before the Mosaic economy ever even began.

Those who dont think harlotry is such a big issue to God need to go back to Deut 22 and see the punishment for a betrothed wife who committed this sin.
Not only was she stoned horribly to her dieath, but at the doorstep of her own father where they could hear her cries while she was beaten to death with rocks.

Jesus exceptoin offers mercy to the harlot while providing protection to the innocent and it fits the whole of scripture perfectly.

[nChrist]

Brothers and Sisters,

I simply wanted to make a few comments. I give thanks that we place our faith in one who always keeps His Promises and is ever faithful, and that one is obviously not us or another man. That One is God, and we will be the only ones who fails, NOT HIM. NOW, here's the best part - our faith in Him and His Blood on the Cross makes our forgiveness possible. BUT, there is much more from the moment of Salvation - the ETERNAL Promises of GOD are given and WILL be kept PERFECTLY by HIM. God's Promises are not dependent upon our righteousness, rather the righteousness of JESUS CHRIST that can't ever fail.

I do wish to comment on a couple of other things. Israel has not been forgotten by God, and all of God's Promises to Israel will be kept perfectly at His appointed time. Israel has been put aside for a time, but God is not nearly through with His dealings with Israel. Just as an example, David committed adultery, but God has and WILL keep His Promises to David, even though David failed miserably. We must also consider vast differences between Law and Grace and know there are portions of Scripture in the New Testament that draw dramatic differences between the two - rightfully so. JESUS and the CROSS is the most important and precious event in human history. One should not take these comparisons as another period of Law, rather as an undeserved Grace, Love, and a way provided by God to be rescued from the curse of sin and death. We should always remember that there is nothing about us and nothing that we do to make us worthy. JESUS paid the price to make us fit, and we are His Purchased possessions from the moment of Salvation to the endless ages of eternity to come. I give thanks that I depend on JESUS and not myself.

There is much more that I give thanks for, but JESUS and the CROSS is always at the top of my list. The Promises of God answer many questions that have bothered mankind for centuries. Examples:  1) Am I lost again if I sin?  2) Do I lose Salvation if I go into a coma and can't do any good works for the LORD?  3) Do I lose Salvation if I have a stroke, go insane, or otherwise lose mental health and curse God?  4) Am I in charge of my own Salvation and choose to leave God and throw my Salvation away?

NOW, here's the best part - the answers to the above questions - NO!  If I am really saved, I am finally saved for eternity because of the Promises of God, and no power in the universe can separate me from the love of God. God will keep His Promises to me regardless of how many promises I break, how many times I stumble and sin, and how many times I miserably fail. This is why man was in desperate need of a Saviour, and the work of Salvation was finished perfectly on the CROSS about 2,000 years ago. No man can add anything to it nor take anything from it.

Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT!, JESUS CHRIST, our Lord and Saviour forever!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 1:18-23 NASB  I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

[Firelight]

His Promises to me regardless of how many promises I break, how many times I stumble and sin, and how many times I miserably fail. This is why man was in desperate need of a Saviour, and the work of Salvation was finished perfectly on the CROSS about 2,000 years ago. No man can add anything to it nor take anything from it.

Amen!  I also add that 'amen' to your thought that the 'cross' is central to all of time... the focus of the ages.   People of the OT looked forward to this event,  as NT people look back on it.

[airIam2worship]

~foc~

I've stated my views based on scripture (Galatians),  and hold those truthes to be valid.   I find your last couple responses inflamitory and disrespectful, at best. 

I'm new to ChristiansUnite,  and rather like the forum.   I won't risk warnings or banning, responding to your hurtful remarks. 

May you prosper as your soul prospers.   

Good advice, Firelight

[nChrist]

Amen!  I also add that 'amen' to your thought that the 'cross' is central to all of time... the focus of the ages.   People of the OT looked forward to this event,  as NT people look back on it.

Hello Firelight,

And now because of God's Great Love and Gift to us, the living members of the Great Shepherd's flock joyously await His Second Coming. Those who have already physically died in Christ are with Him now, and we who are alive will join Him at His appointed time. His promises to His children will be kept perfectly for eternity.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Matthew 5:14-16 NASB  "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;  nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.  "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen!  I also add that 'amen' to your thought that the 'cross' is central to all of time... the focus of the ages.   People of the OT looked forward to this event,  as NT people look back on it.

Amen Firelight. All of God's children have a great time to look forward to because of Him.