American Muslims angry at US stance on Mideast conflict

[2nd Timothy]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts brother....I had almost forgotten about your years as a police officer and that too falls right in line with my question.

And yes, I have viewed it pretty much as you describe.   But when I was asked directly, it caught me off guard is all.   We all know that Jesus died for all of us, even the low life's that take innocent lives.   I would be the first to jump into a situation to defend my family and or someone who was defenseless to someone like this.   But ever since this question was posed to me, I still have that nagging in the back of my mind....How do I love this person as Christ did, and still protect innocent life, especially if the only way is taking their life?   I don't like questions nagging me......lol 

Perhaps, the our role is two fold.   Law/Government/Nation vs. Individual Believers.   These two appear to be on different levels.  I know in Romans it speaks about yielding to the Kings and Authority, because those are put there by God for His purpose.   But I think perhaps as individuals we are in a different role so to speak.  Or maybe not  

Anyhow, somebody wake up PR..lol   I really would love to hear his thoughts on this.  I know he has posted a great in the past regarding this very thing.

[2nd Timothy]

for what Israel do, i do not know. I hope they are on God side coz' just like the Israelites that went to the promise land after God said he will not go with them (before the 40 years in wilderness) well they will just loss....  

Hi BLAD, this is another one thats difficult for me to get my head on straight about.  I believe scripturally we are to support Israel.  I want them to go in waste these terrorist, but at the same time, I know that their current persecution is brought on by their on-going unbelief.  Their suffering will be great during tribulation as God forces them to turn directly to Him when the whole world lines up against them and they have no where else to turn.

So again, I stand behind them completely, but at the same time, I know God is using this whole thing for a greater purpose.  Reminds me of where John takes the scroll and eats it....Its sweet, but bitter in his stomach.

:Edited for better clarity.

[Shammu]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts brother....I had almost forgotten about your years as a police officer and that too falls right in line with my question.

And yes, I have viewed it pretty much as you describe.   But when I was asked directly, it caught me off guard is all.   We all know that Jesus died for all of us, even the low life's that take innocent lives.   I would be the first to jump into a situation to defend my family and or someone who was defenseless to someone like this.   But ever since this question was posed to me, I still have that nagging in the back of my mind....How do I love this person as Christ did, and still protect innocent life, especially if the only way is taking their life?   I don't like questions nagging me......lol 

Perhaps, the our role is two fold.   Law/Government/Nation vs. Individual Believers.   These two appear to be on different levels.  I know in Romans it speaks about yielding to the Kings and Authority, because those are put there by God for His purpose.   But I think perhaps as individuals we are in a different role so to speak.  Or maybe not 

Anyhow, somebody wake up PR..lol   I really would love to hear his thoughts on this.  I know he has posted a great in the past regarding this very thing.

Okay brother, I have PM'ed PR. 

[2nd Timothy]

Wake up Pastor...we need guidance!!!  

[Shammu]

This may help you, in the mean time.........................

Fair warning, I will not debate this. Please feel free to express your thoughts, this is bacisally for 2T. If you feel you must debate my answer. Take it to the Theology, Debate section and start a thread. That is three doors down, from Prophecy - Current Events.

Thank you.
Bob
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War, is justified according to biblical standard.

A key responsibility of the civil government is to protect its citizens from attack by wrongdoers. This involves punishing those who break the law. It also involves defending the nation from every external attacker, including nations, other groups of people or dangerous pests and diseases. All these responsibilities are encompassed in the power of the sword Romans 13:1-8. Therefore, pacifism is not a Christian option.

War is only justified for defense Romans 13:1-8. It should not be used to expand a nation's boundaries, or to take control of another nation, or to extract trade advantages. This is a fundamental principle. A nation should never need to establish military domination in another region or nation. This doctrine covers pre-emptive strikes which is when a country attacks an enemy who is about to attack.

The militia should be up made of volunteers. Anyone who is faint-hearted or afraid should not be forced to fight Deut 20:5-9. People who are at a critical stage in their lives should not be forced into military service. For example, men who have recently married, started building a house or started a business should be freed from service, because they would not be focused on the battle.

Only the civil government has authority to declare war. Individuals or companies do not have the authority to commit a nation to war. Any declaration of war must be in accordance with correct legal processes [/b]Deut 20:10[/b]

A Christian government should only declare war if it thinks it has a reasonable chance of success. Jesus said that before a king goes to war, he should sit down and consider whether he can match the army that is coming against him. If not he will send a delegation to ask for terms of peace Luke 14:31-32, even if this involves a loss of freedom. For Christians freedom is not an absolute value. It may be better to lose freedom to govern, than to lose a large number of lives in an unsuccessful defense. In fact, because Jesus has set us free, we cannot lose our freedom.

Forgive enemies once they are defeated. Jesus said, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do." Stephen said, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." We should treat enemies as God has treated us for we were enemies of God before coming to Christ and He forgave us. Luke 23:34; Acts 7:60; Colossians 1:21-23

Those who persist in evil and refuse to live at peace are to be firmly dealt with in the Lord. We are not to sit back and do nothing or continually appease those who do evil. Psalm 109 We are not to be naive or pacifistic.

Always keep in mind that earthly wars have spiritual elements. Paul was inspired to write that our primary battle is not against flesh and blood people but against Satan and his minions and we should fight it as such. Ephesians 6:10-18

[2nd Timothy]

Good stuff DW....this is what I was looking for, thanks! 

Psalms 109 WOW! 

[Soldier4Christ]

Brothers Tom and Bob gave some excellant insight on this. When we go to war with anyone we must not hate the person but rather the evil that they are doing, the evil within. The old saying hate the sin but not the sinner really does apply here. It is a difficult thing to do but one that we must accomplish for the sake of our own souls as well as theirs. This is a subject that I myself had to contend with before I could even think of joining the Military many years ago. A statement that I posted quite some time ago in response to pacifism might help to understand this a bit better.


______________


Pacifism or Christianity. Is There A Difference?

have been asked numerous times if it is right for a Christian to be a combat soldier, to kill in combat. In fact this is a question that I had to ask for myself before I decided to join the military. As always the Bible has the answer to our questions.

Nehemiah, a great prophet of God said, "Neh 4:14 And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses. "

Some Christians support the belief that as a Christian we are to be pacifists. Using scripture such as "Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." and " Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. " to support their belief. They also stand by the belief that the New Testament teachings are of pacificism.

Pacifism is a non biblical position. Although being able to appeal to superficial arguments of conscience and quote the odd verse out of content - the whole spirit and thrust of pacifism is anti Christian. Pacifists may be sincere - but they are sincerely wrong.
A Christian, by definition, must be active - with his or her sleeves rolled up, being willing to get his hands dirty protecting the innocent, defending the defenceless and saving lives from unprovoked aggression. Christian love is not mere words and sentiments. True love shows itself in action. (1 John 3:18). If all the people with a conscience refuse to fight then it will leave the battle fields in the hands of men without a conscience.

Pacifism finds it's rots in HUMANISM. Despite some impressive but superficial Christian pretension, pacifism is humanism. In common with humanism, pacifism shares a false idea of man. It sees man as basically good. To the pacifist all people are just too good to kill. Neither rapists, murderers nor terrorists deserve to be stopped, in the view of the pacifist.
In contrast to this notion of people being basically good, the Bible teaches us that the heart of man is desperately wicked and deceitful;that they are quick to hurt and kill; they leave ruin and destruction wherever they go... everyone has sinned and is far away from God's saving presence. (Romans 3:15,23) Pacifists often display more concern for the aggressor than for the defender, more sympathy for the criminal than for his victim.

Our Lord Jesus may have been meek but He was never mild! His teaching was powerful, dynamic, direct and uncompromising. This tough carpenter from Nazareth was able to survive forty days fasting in the desert and forty lashes from the brutal Roman whip. He could walk hundreds of kilometers in the blazing heat of Palestine's inhospitable terrain and He could walk through a murderous mob with such a presence that no-one dared stop Him (Luke 4:28-30).
When Jesus saw how corrupt men were desecrating the temple with their money-grabbing greed, He made a whip, overturned their tables and drove them forcibly from God's House (Matthew 21:12-13).
Jesus told His disciples, "Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

When Jesus returns to this world it will be as the conquering King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The Bible teaches us that the first time Jesus came as a Saviour - and all who turn from their sin and trust in Christ, following Him in obedience, are saved. But when Jesus comes again it will be as Judge - and all who have not repented and obeyed will be condemned and eternally punished. The Scripture warns us that when Jesus returns He will annihilate the forces of the false church and the Antichrist. We are told that rivers of blood will flow from the carnage of mankind's rebellion against Christ (Revelation 14:19-20).

"....... and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. (Revelation 19:11,15,16).


Pacifism also has an unrealistic view of society. The reality of this world is that it is a fallen world, inhabited by sinful mankind in rebellion against the Creator. Idealistic fantasies about a world of peace and Utopia without war are cruelly false and dangerously deceptive. In the Bible we are warned that those who say 'Peace! Peace!' when there is no peace are 'loathsome' false prophets (Jeremiah 6:!4; 8:11). Jesus warned us that 'wars and revolutions' would increase (Matthew 24:6,7; Luke 21:9,10). We are warned in the scriptures that 'While people are saying 'Peace and Safety', destruction will come on them suddenly.' (I Thessalonians 5:3)
'PEACE' seems to be the modern equivalent of Baal worship. There is an irrational worship of peace. This selfish materialistic age has made an idol out of peace. 'Peace at any price' inevitably leads to tyranny and destruction - the peace of a graveyard.
People say that war is hell - but often peace is worse. More people died in the peace following the revolution in CAMBODIA than died in the entire war before it. Three-milion Cambodians (40% of the population) were slaughtered by Pol Pot's Marxist Khmer Rouge in the 'peace' following 1975. In fact, more people have been tortured, maimed and massacred in times of peace than in times of war during this century!
Have we become so soft, decadent and self-seeking that we are no longer willing to risk our lives for anything? Is nothing worth fighting for? Do we have nothing worth defending? Do we care so little for others that we're unwilling to risk anything for their protection? Are we so engrossed in watching videos, in 'wine, women and song' that we can no longer tell the difference between right and wrong? Or don't we even care?
For centuries Christians have believed that there were worse things than war. For our ancestors death in battle was not the worst thing that could happen to them. An eternity in hell was. They did not fear death. They feared God. They realised that death for the Christian is not fatal. They had a clear belief in eternal life. Principles were more important then personal safety. Duty, honor, country, family and God meant more to them than selfish desires for peace and safety. And thank God for that because the faith and freedoms we enjoy were won and preserved by their blood, sweat and sacrifices.
The wise Christian does not seek to selfishly avoid the problems of this world, but courageously steps out in faith to be part of the solution. We should recognize that sinful man needs to be restrained by laws and by force, that liberty needs to be defended, that our freedoms came through, and often need to be maintained by hard fighting.
If all Christians became pacifists, would all non-Christians also become pacifists?
Not likely.

It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism - while the wolf remains of a different opinion. The Bible declares: 'Blessed are the peacemakers' - Matthew 5:9. NOT blessed are the pacifists! You have to make peace. It takes action. For the pacifists hoping for worldwide peace - Jesus said: 'Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.' (Matthew 10:34)

______________________

When evil resides within a people there is no dealing with them. In essence we would be dealing with the devil which we know that this does not work.


Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.


___________________

Sorry I didn't respond to this sooner, I was a bit a sleep here.   

[ibTina]

Brother Tim Jesus would have us love the sinner, but hate the sin.  This includes those caught in a cult, such as islamics.

Dw, I was just thinking the same thing as I read Brother Tim's question.   It is more than just sin... it is the Devil himself.. as far as the Islamics go... at least that is my opinion.  Where we are soldiers for Christ.. they are soldiers of Satan!

[Brother Jerry]

Amen to all of the great words of wisdom.

PR stated the comment about us rolling up our sleeves and helping the innocent.  And that is where this conflict comes down to for many people.

There are many Americans confused as to who we are to support in this current conflict.  We can site that so and so bombed so and so first or all sorts of things of that nature.  However that can go back further than any of us have an accurate history of...thousands of years back there was conflict. 

You can also through in political and econimical aspects of things but then that is putting the humanistic attitude into the mix and that can more often than not be incorrect.  The best way to look at the current conflict is with the prayer.  Get down on your knees and pray to God that His will be done with what is going on over there.  And pray for both sides to find wisdom in God and find their salvation in God.  I know it considered overreaching to pray for an entire people to find salvation.  But do not pray that either side will win, but that they will come to terms with Jesus and His will prevail.  Pray to let Jesus shine in any involved directly or indirectly with what is going on and that His will be done.

I have no preference for a victor in the conflict except God.  The Islamists have substituted thier faith in Muhammed for that of God.  The Jews have ignored what God had told them of Jesus and will be dealt with during the Tribulation.  I only pray that if it is God's will that they fight it out that it stays confined to that region.  And that if soldiers are sent in, that they also be soldiers of Christ and are able to spread His word to the region.

Sincerely
Brother Jerry

[Amorus]

Love is a big responsibility and a very large commitment.  The Lord has proved this in scripture over and over.  Love can never be confused with pacifism, which is beautifully stated in PR's post.  I learned my greatest lessons in life when the old man "took me out behind the woodshed."  If you knew my father you would think it impossible for that man to be angree and be a disciplinarian.  I was just plain stubborn at the time and was extremely disobedient, but I learned my lesson every time.  Now that I'm older I'm thankful that he LOVED me enough to set me straight in my ways.  It surely did hurt him more then it hurt me.  That is how I see the situation in Israel.  I will support them because of the Word of God, our Loving Father.  The Bible commands us to love our neighbors as we love ourselves, to love our enemies. It never says let them take our faith from us, and that is exactly what terrorism is trying to do.
Blessings!
-Am-

[2nd Timothy]

Great comments everyone!   PR great out line indeed!

Again I would like reiterate that I feel pretty much as you all do about this.  I had not tied Pacifism to Peace the way you outlined there, but perhaps that IS the underlying problem.   Let me expand on how this topic came up a little better.

The way the original question was posed to me was....

Jesus said to Love our enemies.   How do we go about keeping our Christian perspective within this verse and properly view war as correct.  It was not in regards to any particular war or political view, or even a debate, it was rather a discussion that came up amongst brothers trying to rightly divide the word in that regard.


Scripture reference.

Mat 5:43  Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;


Also, the discussion touched on the possible differing roles that Nations/Governments might have, as opposed to Christian citizens or individuals.   i.e. Romans 13


In other words, if there was a Muslim in my neighborhood, as Christians we would most likely go out our way to show kindness to him, and share the Love of God with such an individual.   However, as a nation being attacked by a radical islamic nation, we would defend ourselves and take a different action, obviously because trying to share Gods love with those, would be fruitless, and allow evil to reign as it were.


The discussion also touched on Christ Himself waring with the nations (Revelation) in the end as a possible example.   Clearly God does not stop loving men at that stage, but rather (I think) He realizes that these men are no longer capable of responding to His Love having been given over to evil entirely, and must be destroyed.   Of course He is judge, so that changes the equation somewhat here.  But it did come up.


So, having some background here, let me pose the question again.   How do we as Christians love our enemy's (and do good to them), and when should it be determined that action by force (or war) is necessary?   AND, is it possible that there is a difference between an individual's role (you and me) in this, as opposed to Governments/Nations (USA/Afghanistan etc).


Think of the questions, not in context of an argument with a pacifist (although, maybe this IS crucial to the question), but rather, How should we as Christians address our thoughts and actions as believers in the current times we live in, and what Scripture do we stand on to guide our way.   


Blessings!

[Amorus]

2nd Timothy,
I'm sorry brother, but for me could you provide a bit of clarification on How do we love our enemy's?  Are you speaking here of war or of someone in the neighborhood who is opposed to you?  Just curious.  Thanks brother!

[2nd Timothy]

No problem!   The discussion was based on where Christ instructed us to love our enemy's.   I brought up the idea in that discussion that it might be possible that individuals could have a differing role than that of nations.   Its sort of a broad area to discuss I know, but I guess what I am looking for is clarification on how WE as individual believers are to view BOTH neighborhood enemy's as well as national enemy's.  OR is there a difference at all?   

I see it as Christ stated it....we are to love our enemy's period....but when scripturally do we use force in either case?   Keep in mind before you answer that I do believe war and defense are indeed necessary as PR and everyone has described, I'm just trying to get a scriptural footing on the whole topic is all.  Make sense?

[Soldier4Christ]

Let's take a closer look at the verses that you quoted.


Mat 5:43  Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;


Who is being spoken of here,"love thy neighbor". The original word used here plēsion means "near, close by, fellow countryman, Christian, neighbor". In Joh 4:5 this greek word was used to mean near when Jesus came near to a parcel of land at Sychar.


"hate thine enemy" is the word echthros that means "hateful, hostile, adversary, foe". This word is used frequently in regards to the enemies of Christ. In Romans it is used to describe those that are not followers of Christ.

Now let's set that line of thought to the side for a second.

Let's take a look at what John the Baptist told some Roman Soldiers.


Luk 3:14  And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.


"Do violence to no man" the original word here is diaseiō which means more correctly "to intimidate, to shake up".

Now let's go back to Mat 5 but this time to verse 39.

" whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also"

The word smite is the Greek word rhapizō which is the act of "slapping with an open palm". This was a widely used form of an insult and nothing more.

What I see here in both situations is the fair and equal treatment of all people nothing being said against using force to control an unruly person that tends to kill or maim someone. The Soldier was being told to treat all people with respect and not be a bully. Jesus was telling us how to treat others in a minor civil dispute.

For those that are law enforcement of Military this is not to say that they cannot do their job which may entail killing someone. For the one on one situation, neighbors, it does not mean that we cannot protect ourselves. Simply that we should not be easily offended by insults, do not be proud and to return such with a show of love. No where does Jesus teach against self defense. He does tells us not to take vengeance and to love others.

[Brother Jerry]

Amen PR

And to note there are several times that Jesus and the disciples came in contact with Roman centurians.  And not once did Jesus rebuke them for being soldiers and direct them to lay down their arms. 

Sincerely
Jerry